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ARCWingsail said..

yoyo said..

Other double surface sails have had single surface from clew to head to allow for twist and increase range.
Dan Kaseler had a full double luff as well many years ago with horizontal inflatable ribs/pockets. Didn't have much twist either , showed promise but even when Dan got his own sail brand nobody has heard anymore about it.

This is very good example. I respect Dan for all things he have done for the industry. But in wingsail development he did follow everyone's road. First, symmetrical design, doesn't work, than asymmetrical that goes to one direction, and finally hard surface carbon wing. I doubt that last two versions ever seen water. You see in my early developments I foolishly disregard one very important parameter PRESSURE DRAG, I don't know where I lost my head at that time. That pressure drag preventing symmetrical system going fast. It is very tricky to make air believe that sail is thin and at same time have all benefits of thick wing. As I said in my previous posts , airfoil is very important.

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sick_em_rex said..

what size is your test sail and what windrange do you think it has? Will it be mast specific?

sail roughly bit less than 6.5 m I use regular mast 460 , in production I will use 4.30 4.60 and maybe 5 something meters high aspect ratio for really light wind and really heavy sailors . Sail takes me on plane at 17kt wind (I'm 180 pounds and 59 cm wide board) upper limit I don't know yet. I had pleasant cessions with no sign of fatigue when other people around me use 4.5 m sail.

Have you came up with an idea how transport the sail?
I would like to invite you to Fogland Rhode Island for a day or two when the production is done.

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DaniS said..

Have you came up with an idea how transport the sail?
I would like to invite you to Fogland Rhode Island for a day or two when the production is done.

I transport sail in the red bag, it's a bit over sized but it fit sail mechanism mast base, wetsuit, booties tee shirts, tools ,air pump and box of beer of course. In production I probably going to make metallic bag, if I can get fabric for the right price. Thanks for invitation! I would be delighted to come when it become not so crazy.

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DaniS said..

I would like to invite you to Fogland Rhode Island for a day or two when the production is done.

Or maybe he can come to the East Coast Windsurfing Festival Long Island in June to show the sail there. Then you'll have to come, too, Dani!

I'd love to see some of your GPS tracks. Maybe you can upload some to KA72?

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boardsurfr said..

DaniS said..

I would like to invite you to Fogland Rhode Island for a day or two when the production is done.

Or maybe he can come to the East Coast Windsurfing Festival Long Island in June to show the sail there. Then you'll have to come, too, Dani!

I'd love to see some of your GPS tracks. Maybe you can upload some to KA72?

boardsurfr!
For sure i am going to ECWF in Long Island ;-)

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boardsurfr said..

DaniS said..

I would like to invite you to Fogland Rhode Island for a day or two when the production is done.

Or maybe he can come to the East Coast Windsurfing Festival Long Island in June to show the sail there. Then you'll have to come, too, Dani!

I'd love to see some of your GPS tracks. Maybe you can upload some to KA72?

This is not such a bad idea, I never herd about East Cost Windsurfing Festival. Where exactly in Long Island? I'll get you GPS records

You should join a team in the GPS Teams Challenge. It would be an excellent way for you to document and publicise your sailing sessions with your sails.

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Mobydisc said..

You should join a team in the GPS Teams Challenge. It would be an excellent way for you to document and publicise your sailing sessions with your sails.

Agreed! Join the Fogland Speed Surfers. Besides being the only GPS TC Team in the eastern US, we'd love to have you! Right, Dani?
gpsteamchallenge.com.au/sailor/register
gpsteamchallenge.com.au/team/view/76

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Mobydisc said..

You should join a team in the GPS Teams Challenge. It would be an excellent way for you to document and publicise your sailing sessions with your sails.

I will, of course I will and not only I, many others who get my sail also join. Wing, in the high wind condition far more superior to traditional sail. Going to speed challenge with wing, is like bringing a gun to the knife fight. You guys just enjoy your time there while it last.

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ARCWingsail said..

Mobydisc said..

You should join a team in the GPS Teams Challenge. It would be an excellent way for you to document and publicise your sailing sessions with your sails.

I will, of course I will and not only I, many others who get my sail also join. Wing, in the high wind condition far more superior to traditional sail. Going to speed challenge with wing, is like bringing a gun to the knife fight. You guys just enjoy your time there while it last.

A few bullit holes in my sail wouldn't slow me down, they're no worse than the harness hook holes. But you haven't seen the knives we have down here, just ask croc Dundee

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Waiting4wind said..

ARCWingsail said..

Mobydisc said..

You should join a team in the GPS Teams Challenge. It would be an excellent way for you to document and publicise your sailing sessions with your sails.

I will, of course I will and not only I, many others who get my sail also join. Wing, in the high wind condition far more superior to traditional sail. Going to speed challenge with wing, is like bringing a gun to the knife fight. You guys just enjoy your time there while it last.

A few bullit holes in my sail wouldn't slow me down, they're no worse than the harness hook holes. But you haven't seen the knives we have down here, just ask croc Dundee

I don?t know why, but some of the posts I read in my head with Australian accent, it really brightens up my day. Probably because I love that accent. You guys down there really hard cookies aren?t you?
I open this forum with purpose to tell people, or even educate about new sail tech that I trying to bring to the market. Create fastest sail in the world wasn?t my agenda, I design BETTER sail system, where is everyone can feel real benefits. In reality for 6.5 m area is 6.5m energy available, traditional design can utilize that energy (in very narrow envelope) as good as a wing sail. I have hot guy with hot gear on my bay, slowly passing me (well he is lighter, bigger sail, wider board etc.), but as soon as wind speed increases by 5 kt. All of his hot gear became totally useless. Also i would love to join you on speed challenge , I will do it as soon as i clear my table a bit and weather become warmer.

Hi we're also following this topic in Belgium & The Netherlands.

We're getting very excited when you say that this sail will also beat traditional sails in speedsurfing.

Can you explain to us why the sail has according to you a big wind range.
I would expect the tighter leech to induce less flex and more stability/control problems in higher winds and overpowered conditions.

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wsurfmarc said..

Hi we're also following this topic in Belgium & The Netherlands.

We're getting very exciting when you say that this sail will also beat traditional sails in speedsurfing.

Can you explain to us why the sail has according to you a big wind range.
I would expect the tighter leech to induce less flex and more stability/control problems in higher winds and overpowered conditions.

I'll create a little drawing for you later on today with following explanation. in about 6 hours. Thank you for following my posts

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ARCWingsail said..

This is not such a bad idea, I never herd about East Cost Windsurfing Festival. Where exactly in Long Island? I'll get you GPS records

It's in Heckscher State Park, June 14-15 - check www.ecwindfest.org/li/location_li.html and the other pages on the site.

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ARCWingsail said..

we will demo some models in NJ and Cape Hatteras NC soon

Do you know when you'll demo in Hatteras?

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ARCWingsail said..

wsurfmarc said..

Hi we're also following this topic in Belgium & The Netherlands.

We're getting very exciting when you say that this sail will also beat traditional sails in speedsurfing.

Can you explain to us why the sail has according to you a big wind range.
I would expect the tighter leech to induce less flex and more stability/control problems in higher winds and overpowered conditions.

I'll create a little drawing for you later on today with following explanation. in about 6 hours. Thank you for following my posts

First of all, thank you Mark and all people who reading my posts! I never thought that my forum will attract that much attention, and I'm very pleased. You asking right questions. Some people asking me for speed record now! They looking for a smoking gun! But as a speed sailor you know, that speed on the water, depend on location, wind speed, wave height, board width, fin size, and sailor ability. My partner want to go to hot spot to show it all. But I think it is not fare to seduce everyone with speed record instead telling real pros and cons of the wing.
When I design wing I was looking for results in stability, quietness of the board, stationary position of the wing, light feel, ease of the water start and SPEED. As I said before in my posts, I was using same board same fin same mast (same sailor ) with different sails , wing and traditional. And I got it all. To the wing is no difference you go 21 o 31 kt. Wing is stable, no matter how hard wind blows, you always looking for more. There is no feeling of overpowering at all!
In the hard wind waterstarts needs to be done very gentle, otherwise you will be thrown to the other side of the board like a little toy. But I learned to manage it really fast.
Now, some facts: In reality lower surface of the sail , responsible for about 30% of the lift and 100% of screw ups. While upper surface acts equal . On my drawing where is A conventional and B is wing, you can see that under same angle of attack , to distract amount of available energy D, Wing using 9 deg. and conventional sail using 19 also it reflects on 10 deg. differential in vector of lift.Not in favor of conventional design. Also as airspeed increases , on conventional sail space C will become turbulent, leading edge start failing,(this is the reason you move harness lines to the back of the boom) condition when you working hard with corrections trying to prevent leading edge stall and excessive angle of attack on the back of the sail. NOTHING OF THIS HAPPENED TO THE WING.




At the end I want to say, requirements for direction of the total lift for sailwing, very different from airplane, this is why former pilots who trying bring their knowledge to the industry, failed.
And yes Mark, you right ,leach is tight twist is less and sail bit stiffer.

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boardsurfr said..

ARCWingsail said..

we will demo some models in NJ and Cape Hatteras NC soon

Do you know when you'll demo in Hatteras?

I grantee demos in NJ Berkley township on former state marina parking lot. I have some concerns about hatteras because toray carbon is a bit slow to supply carbon for me. However i go to Htteras Avon april 26 for a week .

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ARCWingsail said..

However i go to Htteras Avon april 26 for a week .

You may want to stop by at the Kashy/WET Windsurfing Festival (http://www.sailwet.com/Regattas/SpringReg14Pre.htm) on you way back. It's close to Norfolk, so it won't take you much extra time. There are some serious gear heads there. Dave Kashy, on whose property the event takes place, makes the best formula fins in the world (judging by racing results).

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boardsurfr said..

ARCWingsail said..

However i go to Htteras Avon april 26 for a week .

You may want to stop by at the Kashy/WET Windsurfing Festival (http://www.sailwet.com/Regattas/SpringReg14Pre.htm) on you way back. It's close to Norfolk, so it won't take you much extra time. There are some serious gear heads there. Dave Kashy, on whose property the event takes place, makes the best formula fins in the world (judging by racing results).

Thank you for invitation! I always very optimistic about dates of accomplishment , in reality it take longer. We will visit as many events as possible when we are ready, hopefully in late April.

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ARCWingsail said..

ARCWingsail said..

wsurfmarc said..

Hi we're also following this topic in Belgium & The Netherlands.

We're getting very exciting when you say that this sail will also beat traditional sails in speedsurfing.

Can you explain to us why the sail has according to you a big wind range.
I would expect the tighter leech to induce less flex and more stability/control problems in higher winds and overpowered conditions.

I'll create a little drawing for you later on today with following explanation. in about 6 hours. Thank you for following my posts

First of all, thank you Mark and all people who reading my posts! I never thought that my forum will attract that much attention, and I'm very pleased. You asking right questions. Some people asking me for speed record now! They looking for a smoking gun! But as a speed sailor you know, that speed on the water, depend on location, wind speed, wave height, board width, fin size, and sailor ability. My partner want to go to hot spot to show it all. But I think it is not fare to seduce everyone with speed record instead telling real pros and cons of the wing.
When I design wing I was looking for results in stability, quietness of the board, stationary position of the wing, light feel, ease of the water start and SPEED. As I said before in my posts, I was using same board same fin same mast (same sailor ) with different sails , wing and traditional. And I got it all. To the wing is no difference you go 21 o 31 kt. Wing is stable, no matter how hard wind blows, you always looking for more. There is no feeling of overpowering at all!
In the hard wind waterstarts needs to be done very gentle, otherwise you will be thrown to the other side of the board like a little toy. But I learned to manage it really fast.
Now, some facts: In reality lower surface of the sail , responsible for about 30% of the lift and 100% of screw ups. While upper surface acts equal . On my drawing where is A conventional and B is wing, you can see that under same angle of attack , to distract amount of available energy D, Wing using 9 deg. and conventional sail using 19 also it reflects on 10 deg. differential in vector of lift.Not in favor of conventional design. Also as airspeed increases , on conventional sail space C will become turbulent, leading edge start failing,(this is the reason you move harness lines to the back of the boom) condition when you working hard with corrections trying to prevent leading edge stall and excessive angle of attack on the back of the sail. NOTHING OF THIS HAPPENED TO THE WING.




At the end I want to say, requirements for direction of the total lift for sailwing, very different from airplane, this is why former pilots who trying bring their knowledge to the industry, failed.
And yes Mark, you right ,leach is tight twist is less and sail bit stiffer.

i working on this shape now ,let's see if it will hold

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ARCWingsail said..

boardboy said..

cough cough bulli**

boardboy said..

cough cough bulli**

I understand your skepticism and disbelieve. Many sail designers tried, and actually announced wing sail concept that never happened. Most of them end up with thick symmetrical sail, others, like Huru sails, end up with thick pocket in front. Neither of these designs have any superiority over traditional design that we use now. My concept is very different from anything that had been done. All parts are different from traditional sail parts and need to be fabricated from scratch: batten tensions, one sided interlaced battens, cam holders, and downhaul hook, camber inducing mechanism and monofilm surfaces.
Finally, after 2 years of development, after I got real result with GPS data, I can come to this forum and tell you all about it.

Dear ARCWingsail,

I'm Giulio Iviani, wing sail designer at "Heru Sail"

I've read with great interest your post as I believe the development of wing sails should never come to an end but I take it for granted that those who research and work
on wing sail and eventually announce a novel improvement about wing sail are sure that the work announced does not represent a copy of other people's
work or - worse - a patent infringement.

With concern to this passage, "Many sail designers tried, and actually announced wing sail concept that never happened. Most of them
end up with thick symmetrical sail, others, like Huru sails, end up with thick pocket in front.
Neither of these designs have any superiority over traditional design that we use now".

How can you possibly talk about performance of a sail that you have not sailed?
Anyway..just in case you want to try, you won't have to wait long because our Windsurf partner Challenger Sails is starting a massive production in a few week.

Finally, your beautiful work shows some infringements to our international patent like the "inflatable spacer" between battens.
For the same reasons in the past other sails "seen" in this forum thread never reached the market.


For any other clarifications, please write me a pm.

Herusails srl
www.herusails.it
Viale Adriatico 147
00141 Rome
Italy

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Herusails said..

ARCWingsail said..

boardboy said..

cough cough bulli**

boardboy said..

cough cough bulli**

I understand your skepticism and disbelieve. Many sail designers tried, and actually announced wing sail concept that never happened. Most of them end up with thick symmetrical sail, others, like Huru sails, end up with thick pocket in front. Neither of these designs have any superiority over traditional design that we use now. My concept is very different from anything that had been done. All parts are different from traditional sail parts and need to be fabricated from scratch: batten tensions, one sided interlaced battens, cam holders, and downhaul hook, camber inducing mechanism and monofilm surfaces.
Finally, after 2 years of development, after I got real result with GPS data, I can come to this forum and tell you all about it.

Dear ARCWingsail,

I'm Giulio Iviani, wing sail designer at "Heru Sail"

I've read with great interest your post as I believe the development of wing sails should never come to an end but I take it for granted that those who research and work
on wing sail and eventually announce a novel improvement about wing sail are sure that the work announced does not represent a copy of other people's
work or - worse - a patent infringement.

With concern to this passage, "Many sail designers tried, and actually announced wing sail concept that never happened. Most of them
end up with thick symmetrical sail, others, like Huru sails, end up with thick pocket in front.
Neither of these designs have any superiority over traditional design that we use now".

How can you possibly talk about performance of a sail that you have not sailed?
Anyway..just in case you want to try, you won't have to wait long because our Windsurf partner Challenger Sails is starting a massive production in a few week.

Finally, your beautiful work shows some infringements to our international patent like the "inflatable spacer" between battens.
For the same reasons in the past other sails "seen" in this forum thread never reached the market.


For any other clarifications, please write me a pm.

Herusails srl
www.herusails.it
Viale Adriatico 147
00141 Rome
Italy

Giulio Iviani, Thanks for reading my posts. I really pleased by the fact that sail designers paying attention to news in industry. Also I want you congratulate with beginning of massive production with Challenger sails. Nice to see something finally happened. I well aware of you patent , and I assure you there is nothing in common between my sail and your concept. I filed patent as well last year and it's pending. Sorry for using your name as reference, I never tried your sail, but what I see, out your full body concept all what is remaining , big empty pocket in front, in my opinion this pocket is no difference from any big pocket sail on the market. PLEASE ANYBODY OPEN MY EYES AND SHOW ME WHERE I'M WRONG.

Wow, lots of people pushing race sail design at the moment. it makes me think about the overall arc of development in windsurfing, so much design to allow the average sailor to hit 40 kts and so much evolution and refinement along the way. Its always hard to predict which ideas will stick and which will disappear . Logic suggests that the dual skin wing should be better in some situations. I wonder if the Foil moth sailors will be the ones to refine this technology rather than windsurfers.

One major problem is the weight and cost. Effectively you have two sails joined at the luff. Twice as much monofilm , twice as many battens plus the camber profiler . So twice the weight and cost. To me a simple and PERHAPS better solution is a compromise (ie large pocket) such as the Heru. 8m and only 5 battens.

Time will tell.....

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yoyo said..

One major problem is the weight and cost. Effectively you have two sails joined at the luff. Twice as much monofilm , twice as many battens plus the camber profiler . So twice the weight and cost. To me a simple and PERHAPS better solution is a compromise (ie large pocket) such as the Heru. 8m and only 5 battens.

Time will tell.....

This is so true, weight is always issue. You can get very light fabric sail , or monofilm with better graphics, but if you into hi performance.... need to compromise. look, I'm not trying to trick people to buy sail that is not for sale now.I just telling about new technology that comes to the market. And finally this is wing sail with designable , reversible profile that actually works. If you look at my earlier post with drawing, you will understand why symmetrical of big pocket system doesn't have any advantage. Or you have your own technical opinion ?

ARCWingsail. Well done with your new design. I wish you all the best. Just a few questions..

What do you mean by "PRESSURE DRAG" ?

Regarding the diagram, it looks like your sail will handle a lot differently to a conventional sail looking at the force vectors. I know the feeling of a race sail going back handed when going really fast, and when I sail flat water, I use a style that takes advantage of that (as I assume most sailors do). It will be interesting to see how your test sailors use your product in speed sailing conditions and the comments they have about it.

Good luck !

J

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If you look at my earlier post with drawing, you will understand why symmetrical of big pocket system doesn't have any advantage. Or you have your own technical opinion ?

No, but these guys spent $100 million designing the fastest wing sail they could and seemed happy with a symmetrical front section.



Still all the best with your project. It is nice when people look outside the box.

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jn1 said..

ARCWingsail. Well done with your new design. I wish you all the best. Just a few questions..

What do you mean by "PRESSURE DRAG" ?

Regarding the diagram, it looks like your sail will handle a lot differently to a conventional sail looking at the force vectors. I know the feeling of a race sail going back handed when going really fast, and when I sail flat water, I use a style that takes advantage of that (as I assume most sailors do). It will be interesting to see how your test sailors use your product in speed sailing conditions and the comments they have about it.

Good luck !

J

Hi J! You asking very right questions! Pressure drag is amount of energy spent by the air going around airfoil . Meaning: thicker airfoil, more pressure drag. Now about back hand: You feel more pressure on back hand because of leading edge stall. Another words, you loosing pull on your front hand. Wing doesn?t have leading edge stall, and it handles on speed very easy. Board and fin is real issue to overcome. Look at the sailrocket, they found solution not quite acceptable for us . As a speed sailor you will really appreciate this sail in feature, promise.

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yoyo said..

If you look at my earlier post with drawing, you will understand why symmetrical of big pocket system doesn't have any advantage. Or you have your own technical opinion ?

No, but these guys spent $100 million designing the fastest wing sail they could and seemed happy with a symmetrical front section.



Still all the best with your project. It is nice when people look outside the box.

Hi Yoyo! Small correction: 100 mil is a price tag to enter last Americas cup competition. Cost of the wing about 1.5 mil (according to the press) . I also have hard sail design for cats, build a scale model, had some meetings, etc. Cat wing is too big for me to handle now.