So is that a Yes sailquick

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sailquik said..
Simon:

There is a way to approve other devices. They need to be able to produce the SOG error data to validate their results..

If you want to know how to do it you could try asking Dr Tom Chalko to explain it to you.

I doubt he will want to do so however, as he feels this is proprietary IP.

i can tell you it involved LOT of side by side testing over dozens of hours and many hundreds of kilometres, comparing the output of around 6 GPS devices side by side. And then it involved some quite special mathematics and computer programming that Dr Tom developed himself.

Anyone who want to go down that road is quite welcome to. Document it and prove it and then convince the manufacturers to include that in their device output. Go ahead. But be warned, better minds have tried and failed.

Of course, you could just build a device that uses the Ublox GPS chip. It already includes the error data/validation that is required.
Some people are already going down that path. Read about it is other threads on this forum.

To the other bleaters:

The bottom line is that without the error data, there is no acceptable way of telling if your GPS is wrong or not. Period.

Those who bleat that they are just in it for fun and don't care if it is accurate or not, have no regard for the integrety of the GPSTC team competition or the personal rankings. They are quite happy to stuff it up for everyone else because they, personally, "just don't care."

And next time you feel the need to ask the same question again because you, personally, don't care for the answer, just come back and read this again and stop being a troll and wasting everyones time.

I doubt the concept is all that hard you could get your accuracy ESTIMATE lots of different ways. How accurate would that error estimate be well if you use 4 of the same watch to check that accuracy you could convince your self its great.
I can easily build a gps with ublox and any (i like the skytraq 50 hz) gps chip its actually really easy almost children's level. The problem is making not just a nice usable waterproof case but one that can be made at a viable price in ultra low quantities, this is a problem that will never be beaten . This basically limits any sensible choice to off the shelf options.
So Currently people have the option of
1.a few old gps that might be good they might be bad but if you cant buy them its not relevant either way and i killed heaps of gt31 with water.
2. The gw60 that although i think is a good thing and I'm amazed that locosys actually cared enough to get involved given the very low quantities involved has a few quality issues that i know my self and some others dont find acceptable.

Anyway I was just bringing up how impressive the garmin is then asked what the error on the current gps actually represents and you've gone all crazy. Correct me if im wrong but you are the guy that cant even read or understand a GPS data sheet aren't you ?

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sailquik said..
Cocky2:
False statement.
No way to prove it. Your data is not any sort of proof. Again, you have had this exlained to you before. Same question, same answer.
Check the last answer again

False Statement, you have no way to prove ians data is false or any reasonable method used to prove data to prove yours is any more valid. So lets lose the attitude.

Simon how much research have you done into how SDoP is derived? As far as I know it's looking at the quality of the satellite signals and their geometric arrangement, probably other factors as well. Dr Tom Chalko has been involved with this for well over a decade. He is convinced that the error data is meaningful. I've done lots of checks with my diy logger and a gw52. There is always an over lap in the error margins. There is no argument that the Fenix is inaccurate in good satellite conditions. It's that there is no way of knowing. The canmore was a necessary evil at the time. It was the cheapest short term solution on the market. The hope is that it and the other legacy devices will be phased out as people replace them with new approved devices. And all new approved devices will save error data. There is no point trying to achieve anything else

And the problem with using inferior devices for noncompetitive sailors, is sometimes their score counts. And even though they may not feel competitive, others at the same level may. I just don't see the point posting numbers you can't be confident of meaningless numbers are just that

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There are so many holes in this it i not worth answering - AGAIN!!!

This is a case of asking a question and when you dont get the answer you want, you just keep asking it again and again.

You are still not going to get the answer you 'want'. Not gonna happen!

If you really don't remember the answers, go back and read the replies to the last thread you winged in.

I'll keep asking the question where I think it is appropriate. Stay tuned for the next thread!!

This was not a question directed at you so feel free not to answer it! It was an observation about people who windsurf with a GPS. These discussions are always fobbed off by people who sprout lots of technical data about accuracy in an attempt to maintain some higher position and degrade the opinion of others with an opposing view. At the end of the day, you guys have the control, so it is what you say it is, but that does not mean people cannot have an opposing view. Accuracy is not everything to everyone who sails with a GPS. It may be to a majority for all I know. My point is simply to allow those who do not care about competitive accuracy to enjoy the social aspects of GPSTC without degrading the competitive aspects. If this is too hard to implement, so be it, but I will keep saying it here, so just put me on your ignore list.

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decrepit said..
And the problem with using inferior devices for noncompetitive sailors, is sometimes their score counts. And even though they may not feel competitive, others at the same level may. I just don't see the point posting numbers you can't be confident of meaningless numbers are just that

How does not having accuracy logging make the data meaningless? Looking at some data posted earlier in this thread, the data from a Garmin seems to provide quite a bit of meaning to me. I use my Garmin to track other sports other than Windsurfing, and strangely I find quite a bit of meaning in the data despite not looking at the accuracy (I ride a bike the same path every day to work and it is within 20m of distance over 10+kms every day!!). Last time I looked at the speedo in my car it did not provide me an accuracy indicator yet it was quite meaningful in my attempts at driving in a responsible way.

For me, I don't see the point in splashing down a bunch of cash on a device that has low reliability and poor support and has one purpose, and even in that purpose it has poor usability compared to a multipurpose device.

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Simon100 said..

sailquik said..
Cocky2:
False statement.
No way to prove it. Your data is not any sort of proof. Again, you have had this exlained to you before. Same question, same answer.
Check the last answer again

False Statement, you have no way to prove ians data is false or any reasonable method used to prove data to prove yours is any more valid. So lets lose the attitude.

I agree that I have not way to prove Ians data is wrong (or correct). That is the whole point.

What attitude?

Edit: The last paragraph in my reply to you was not aimed at you at all. Perhaps I did not make that as clear as I could have.You have been quite objective. It was specifically aimed at others. 'The bleaters' My apologies if you misinterpereted my post.

Adrian. I have no idea what you mean by:

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.Correct me if im wrong but you are the guy that cant even read or understand a GPS data sheet aren't you ?

But I can assure you I have probably analysed considerably more windsurfing (and other) GPS data results than 99% of windsurfers. I have had endless discussions with the very people who originally wrote the available software programs. I have also had considerable discussions (mostly me asking questions and listening) with real GPS system expers and read every paper I can get my hands on on the subject. I freely admit that there are many people who know more than me in their specialist fields. But I just listen, learn and analyse. I think I have a pretty good overall view, So, what are you implying?

Hey, I redily admit that I am personally no expert in the reading and building of electronic circuits....... Far from it.

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vosadrian said..

There are so many holes in this it i not worth answering - AGAIN!!!

This is a case of asking a question and when you dont get the answer you want, you just keep asking it again and again.

You are still not going to get the answer you 'want'. Not gonna happen!

If you really don't remember the answers, go back and read the replies to the last thread you winged in.

I'll keep asking the question where I think it is appropriate. Stay tuned for the next thread!!

This was not a question directed at you so feel free not to answer it! It was an observation about people who windsurf with a GPS. These discussions are always fobbed off by people who sprout lots of technical data about accuracy in an attempt to maintain some higher position and degrade the opinion of others with an opposing view. At the end of the day, you guys have the control, so it is what you say it is, but that does not mean people cannot have an opposing view. Accuracy is not everything to everyone who sails with a GPS. It may be to a majority for all I know. My point is simply to allow those who do not care about competitive accuracy to enjoy the social aspects of GPSTC without degrading the competitive aspects. If this is too hard to implement, so be it, but I will keep saying it here, so just put me on your ignore list.

Well, there are facts and reason, and their are 'views'.

If you are spouting false facts and fake news, it needs to be countered, lest it corrupt the minds of the masses.

And at the risk of endlessly repeating myself, Decrepit and others: If you just want to be part of the 'fun' and don't care about the integrety of your results, you can always leave the team challenge data entry blank, and post unauthorised device results results in your comments. See: Everyone is happy.

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Well, there are facts and reason, and their are 'views'.

If you are spouting false facts and fake news, it needs to be countered, lest it corrupt the minds of the masses.

I don't think I posted any facts let alone false ones!! Fake news?!?!? You have been following Trump too much. I have a different view to you, that is all. You have control that I don't so you do it how you feel as is appropriate, but that does not make it right. Clearly there are people supporting both views of how the GPSTC could be run in respect accepted devices.

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vosadrian said..

Well, there are facts and reason, and their are 'views'.

If you are spouting false facts and fake news, it needs to be countered, lest it corrupt the minds of the masses.

I don't think I posted any facts let alone false ones!! Fake news?!?!? You have been following Trump too much. I have a different view to you, that is all. You have control that I don't so you do it how you feel as is appropriate, but that does not make it right. Clearly there are people supporting both views of how the GPSTC could be run in respect accepted devices.

Simple start up an alternative GPS comp where any gps can be used

Question- Has anyone already contacted Garmin to see if they would comply with our requirements in a software upgrade? They already have a good product that I assume can record the SDoP info required but we just need access to it? I understand both sides of this argument so decided today to send Garmin an email and see what they have to say. Figured it can't hurt to ask and as I can't find where someone has contacted them before. Correct me if wrong.
Cheers
Marty

PS. Can everyone calm down. We windsurf for the adrenalin rush. Numbers are a byproduct and our community togetherness is far more important. Without a GPS we just cruise around by ourselves so it all goes hand in hand to make us stick together. Without rules there is chaos so the line has to be drawn somewhere. Hopefully Garmin can do something to help.

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MartinF2 said..
Question- Has anyone already contacted Garmin to see if they would comply with our requirements in a software upgrade?

Yes. more than one person. They were not interested at all, it will be interesting to see if that has changed,
But if they dont use a ublox or Sirf chip, it will certainly require more than a simple firmware upgrade.

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sailquik said..
Yes. more than one person. They were not interested at all, it will be interesting to see if that has changed,
But if they dont use a ublox or Sirf chip, it will certainly require more than a simple firmware upgrade.

Thanks Andrew. I'll let you know if they reply as someone way smarter than me will have to take over.
Cheers
Marty

So is there a long term plan for GPSTC supported devices? Is the only product you can buy new that is supported by the GPSTC the Locosys watch? Is that an acceptable long term option?

Is there any sport that uses GPS tracking as fussy about data as windsurfing? There are plenty of sports that use GPS data. I use Strava on a bike. It is a much more advanced platform for doing similar things to what GPSTC do (That is not having a go at GPSTC.... it just has much more resources and earns money on subscription). It accepts data from any device, but there is a system by which users can flag other users if the data is suspect. It is very obvious when the data is wrong. I have never seen a time when the data looked good but was wrong. On a bike like on a sailboard, speed or direction does not change very quickly unless you crash, so it is pretty obvious when the GPS data is in error. The key difference I see with windsurfing is that we look for short term speeds between two close points when most sports do it over a longer distance/time and errors can average out. The 2s peak is the most susceptible to error. Another key difference is that on a windsurfer you are most often in a very GPS friendly environment compared to just about every other sport.... so errors are much less likely.

There are other devices in the pipeline. Unfortunately some pipes sprang a leak and a couple have either dropped out or suffered a delay. But there is a device from the Netherlands and another from Belgium that both look promising. So as far as long term plans go it's a case of keep your fingers crossed, something else comes along. That's why a few of us are working on DIY loggers. If we can get a kit together that just needs some solderin, there could be a cheap device to post with. And on the water feed can be with anything you like.

Sorry Strava is crap, I've seen errors of 20+ km between 2 phones in the same backpack!!!!
No error data, no way to prove ANYTHING!!!!!!!

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decrepit said..
Simon how much research have you done into how SDoP is derived? As far as I know it's looking at the quality of the satellite signals and their geometric arrangement, probably other factors as well. Dr Tom Chalko has been involved with this for well over a decade. He is convinced that the error data is meaningful. I've done lots of checks with my diy logger and a gw52. There is always an over lap in the error margins. There is no argument that the Fenix is inaccurate in good satellite conditions. It's that there is no way of knowing. The canmore was a necessary evil at the time. It was the cheapest short term solution on the market. The hope is that it and the other legacy devices will be phased out as people replace them with new approved devices. And all new approved devices will save error data. There is no point trying to achieve anything else

Yes I would assume it's to do with geometry and signal quality as well. I'm not saying it's inaccurate just that it is again another estimate. Where we always disagree on this is that I think you guys are of the opinion we need the estimated error I'm of the opinion that these modern gps take this into account discard the bad satellites filter the rest assume we traveling on a flat plane with no irratic accelerations then give us a reading that's what we want to see which I think is good enough for what we are doing . That's where the difference of opinion is
I think the garmin do have the ability to record signal quality with the simple garmin provided code in a 5 step very good to very bad scale.I assume it's based around position accuracy but what are the speed error estimates based on it maybe very similar.
My only problem with the locosys is the constant freezing Usb connection issues,Broken buttons and broken wrist straps people have problems with otherwise I think it's great, but for me I usually sail then go back to work I don't have time to waste arguing with a broken watch and it stresses me out which ruins my productivity the rest of the day vs the garmin where its already uploaded to strava as I walk to my car.

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decrepit said..
There are other devices in the pipeline. Unfortunately some pipes sprang a leak and a couple have either dropped out or suffered a delay. But there is a device from the Netherlands and another from Belgium that both look promising. So as far as long term plans go it's a case of keep your fingers crossed, something else comes along. That's why a few of us are working on DIY loggers. If we can get a kit together that just needs some solderin, there could be a cheap device to post with. And on the water feed can be with anything you like.

With yours kits. I love playing electronics too but keep in mind if you really want to do it. Custom pcb are cheap even assembled they will assemble 100 for the parts cost plus like $1000 so any soldering breakout boards together just ends up dearer and way more likely to fail. But the problem like I said earlier is the case. I'm guessing you guys are happy to put it in something waterproof and be really careful but im just not that responsible with things. ( half the time I forget a bag for my car key and just hope I don't fall in)

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kato said..
Sorry Strava is crap, I've seen errors of 20+ km between 2 phones in the same backpack!!!!
No error data, no way to prove ANYTHING!!!!!!!

LOL that's the phone and the backpack not strava

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Simon100 said..

kato said..
Sorry Strava is crap, I've seen errors of 20+ km between 2 phones in the same backpack!!!!
No error data, no way to prove ANYTHING!!!!!!!

LOL that's the phone and the backpack not strava

Probably true about the phone and it's built in gps. But why would you think the antenna and gps in a Garmin watch would be any better?

Plenty of people get a lot of pleasure out of Strava, so to call it crap is pretty ridiculous. It is far surpasses the features of the GPSTC. You can go and view other people's activities and if you see an issue with them you can do something about it. If you use a crap phone GPS to record the data, and you can't see that the data is bad and decide not do anything about it, then somebody else will do something about it if it effects and records. Strava is excellent in my opinion.

I have used Strava on phones and Garmin bike computers and watches. The bike computer GPS is best, followed closely by watch, with phone a distant last for GPS signal quality.

I have worked as an electrical engineer for around 25 years. In that time I have designed many products that have sold on the 10s of millions of volume. I have worked on cellular phone based products and have done lots of Antenna testing in the best test chambers in the world. I know a thing or two about electronics and RF antenna design. If you guys think you can solder a few things together to use out on the water windsurfing, you are missing the point entirely. The thing that Garmin and others get right is making a product that is reliable and easy to use in a particularly harsh environment. Locosys have fallen short on this with there watch. A home made job will fall way short and will be out of the read of most people who want to do GPSTC. Most will be unable to solder it themselves, and they will then complain incessantly about reliability and usability issues. All that so you can get accuracy figure in the logs that is rarely used by anyone to check the actual accuracy of their results and for which a Garmin product would fall within the accuracy range even if it does not explicitly record the accuracy. One day you guys will realise that the fixation on accuracy logging was a mistake. If you want lots of people to have fun, give them a usable reliable product that gives good GPS signal and forget about a silly accuracy log that the majority of people don't know about or look at.

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vosadrian said..
Plenty of people get a lot of pleasure out of Strava, so to call it crap is pretty ridiculous. It is far surpasses the features of the GPSTC. You can go and view other people's activities and if you see an issue with them you can do something about it. If you use a crap phone GPS to record the data, and you can't see that the data is bad and decide not do anything about it, then somebody else will do something about it if it effects and records. Strava is excellent in my opinion.

I have used Strava on phones and Garmin bike computers and watches. The bike computer GPS is best, followed closely by watch, with phone a distant last for GPS signal quality.

I have worked as an electrical engineer for around 25 years. In that time I have designed many products that have sold on the 10s of millions of volume. I have worked on cellular phone based products and have done lots of Antenna testing in the best test chambers in the world. I know a thing or two about electronics and RF antenna design. If you guys think you can solder a few things together to use out on the water windsurfing, you are missing the point entirely. The thing that Garmin and others get right is making a product that is reliable and easy to use in a particularly harsh environment. Locosys have fallen short on this with there watch. A home made job will fall way short and will be out of the read of most people who want to do GPSTC. Most will be unable to solder it themselves, and they will then complain incessantly about reliability and usability issues. All that so you can get accuracy figure in the logs that is rarely used by anyone to check the actual accuracy of their results and for which a Garmin product would fall within the accuracy range even if it does not explicitly record the accuracy. One day you guys will realise that the fixation on accuracy logging was a mistake. If you want lots of people to have fun, give them a usable reliable product that gives good GPS signal and forget about a silly accuracy log that the majority of people don't know about or look at.

+1 Strava is great site and accommodates heaps of different sports and has some excellent features

www.strava.com/features

Last post!!!! I GIVE UP.

It's useless to discuss the reasons with this lot as to why the "Garmin" style devices that don't have an error file aren't accepted. Want a new device accepted....DO THE WORK and prove that it meets the requirements of the rules.
I also refuse to let a few idiots destroy the integrity and trust in the data that we use. It's the same names that appear to come up in the suspect data and then claim " opps" my mistake.

Make your own comp , use whatever devices, even use Strava as your platform. But DO THE WORK!!!!!

I have watched this sport go from hand timed, videos , Garmin watches and now very accurate GPS's . Let's remember that many people have done some great work in getting us to this point in our sport.

Last point.
Want change.....DO THE WORK

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kato said..
Last post!!!! I GIVE UP.

It's useless to discuss the reasons with this lot as to why the "Garmin" style devices that don't have an error file aren't accepted. Want a new device accepted....DO THE WORK and prove that it meets the requirements of the rules.
I also refuse to let a few idiots destroy the integrity and trust in the data that we use. It's the same names that appear to come up in the suspect data and then claim " opps" my mistake.

Make your own comp , use whatever devices, even use Strava as your platform. But DO THE WORK!!!!!

I have watched this sport go from hand timed, videos , Garmin watches and now very accurate GPS's . Let's remember that many people have done some great work in getting us to this point in our sport.

Last point.
Want change.....DO THE WORK

No one has defined the requirements. I even said earlier that the gamin does have an error reading in the supplied code they even have a little mascot monkey to help teach it but no one responds.

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sailquik said..

Simon100 said..

kato said..
Sorry Strava is crap, I've seen errors of 20+ km between 2 phones in the same backpack!!!!
No error data, no way to prove ANYTHING!!!!!!!

LOL that's the phone and the backpack not strava

Probably true about the phone and it's built in gps. But why would you think the antenna and gps in a Garmin watch would be any better?

The antenna wont necessarily be better but it probably all works tograther better. The gps chip is probably dearer a quick look at the garmin ones puts the gps chip at a a whole $3.40. The phone gps is probably given a super low priority in the design and its a cheap phone it's amazing they can make anything for that But there all assumptions and reasonably worthless but you asked what I thought .
My main reasoning is observation my s8 ( I think) phone isn't that good this is easily seen with no comparison. Where as a garmin comes up with almost exactly the same numbers as a locosys watch. Plus I believe in the situation with 2 in the bag it could be the orientation of each and also the different filtering of each. The patch antennas are very directional

My last comment until my next thread if I find something cool.
2 people have emailed me that Sailquick is also the distributor for the locosys watch here I believe they thought this might be a contributing factor to the opinions. My self I'm not at all against some one heavily involved in the sport selling a product if it is a great quality product it could be looked on as a donation to the cause and given the problems people have with them this person is in a great position to honour warranty ( that's law here isn't it?) and replace watches with broken bands/ water damage/ no pc and any other issues connection as I'm sure they will. Is this happening?

I am a bit confused?
If there is rules to use GPSTC what is the problem, follow the rules.
If the there is rules to get a new device approved, follow the rules,
If you are not happy with the rules don't use the site and or start your own site.
My 2 cents worth of a long time reader first time poster.
Fred