Call me cheap, but after spending more than $600 for three GW-60s, only to end up with 2 that are "somewhat broken" (after getting one replaced on warranty), I'd really like an alternative to the watch. I also really like the large display, speed announcements, and details possible when using a phone, but fully understand the limitations of using the build-in GPS chips.

So I played around with a $20 USB dongle that uses a u-blox 7 chips, which provides the accuracy estimates that we need for the GPS Team Challenge (and other competitions). Initial results are encouraging, so I thought I'd share. Details at boardsurfr.blogspot.com/2017/11/an-accurate-gps-for-20.html

Good stuff and congrats on getting this experiment to fruitition Peter. You have done far better than me with my Arduino board! I look forward to seeing some positive debugging in the next short while, because as you say, it has a the possibility of providing a inexpensive and accessible option.

Could it be done sans phone? I used to love the small size of my canmore, but it's non-Doppler. I don't care about display.

Nice going Peter, I like the idea of a blue tooth connection because it allows the gps unit to be head mounted. But your idea of a usb connection looks simpler, and I guess waterproofing a cable to the head isn't impossible, just messy.

I find both methods tempting, but I think I'll wait a while, all that hacking, is a little beyond me now.

Does the verbal speech delay lessen when using the dongle, or does it still use the internal chip?

Select to expand quote

Stretchy said..
Could it be done sans phone? I used to love the small size of my canmore, but it's non-Doppler. I don't care about display.

Stretchy, we need a processing chip to deal with the UBX messages coming from the Ublox antenna module. Phones are a convenient way to access a good amount of processing power. I am in the process of making a logger using a Raspberry Pi Zero with BT. Lots of processing power, but downside is more power required => bigger battery. Mine will be the size of a credit card and only slightly slimmer than your wallet. Boardsurfr's approach is brilliant in its simplicity - access to lots of processing power, storage and battery all in a 'cheap' package, plus someone else has done all the coding. The only downside is that its a bit bigger and waterproofing requirements. I reckon its got a ton of potential.

Select to expand quote

Stretchy said..
Could it be done sans phone? I used to love the small size of my canmore, but it's non-Doppler. I don't care about display.

I'm with stretchy here. I look at my numbers when I've finished my session or having a break. In ear info isn't for me.
Accuracy, readable screen size, water proof, battery life, apple compatible are a must.
Wifi downloading, cable free charging would also be great.
Im not chasing records yet so my Canmore for $77 fits the bill fine.
Yes I can be tempted tho.
Keep up the investigation & building. R & D.

You could always do it with bluetooth, bluetooth gps, bluetooth earphones......hey wait a minute it's already been done! Some ex pat Aussie did it 10 years ago and still uses the latest version now at 18hz. Has no trouble collecting smooth error free data!

Select to expand quote

Stretchy said..
Could it be done sans phone? I used to love the small size of my canmore, but it's non-Doppler. I don't care about display.

The Canmore is doppler. What's missing is the SDoP values in the .fit files.

Sure this can be done without a phone, or with bluetooth, or a million different ways, if you're willing to solder stuff together, and/or program. That's great if you want something to play with. Not so great if you want something that anyone could use, unless you want to start manufacturing and selling. I think it telling that you can get custom fins from Fangy, but not a custom GPS.

A phone is great because because (a) you can get it cheap, (b) it has a great display (which many speed surfers want), (c) it has sound output (which some want), and (d) it's easy to program and share apps. The last part is for Android phones only - iPhone programming is a huge pain in comparison and severely restricted by Apple rules. If you want to make an iPhone app available, you have to pay Apple $99 per year, even if your app is free. Sorry, but that won't happen.

Anyone with the "technical skills" to plug a cable into a phone and install a few apps can order three things from Amazon (or wherever), and reproduce what I did. Right now, you'd either have to use a "mock location" app like GNSS commander, so you also won't have doppler, or you'd have to write some code to log the .ubx files yourself. But I'm pretty sure there will be a free app for that reasonably soon, probably within a few months or less. We'll need to run more tests with the dongle first. But even if this one should end up not being good enough (unlikely but possible), there are other USB dongles with larger antennas and ublox chips available.

Simple would be turn on phone, open app. Turn on bluetooth gps. Press connect in app, go windsurfing and listen to speeds on bluetooth earphone. Stop look at screen and see speeds in all categories. Stop sailing upload track/results from phone. Done.

Wow, that's just what I do, so simple even for an uneducated beach bum like me. No cables, no extra apps, no mock locations, no head scratching, no swearing...just smooth error free data. It's all been listed here on the forums over the years and even Daffy is using the same system down under with the latest bluetooth gps from Manfred. No market for it though so only a few units in existance.

Here's the discussion from a year ago, nothing has changed and it still works. www.seabreeze.com.au/forums/Windsurfing/Gps/GPS-Logit-with-10hz-external-BT-receiver?page=1

OK Roo, what are the details of the bluetooth GPS (specifically, are you still using the 9 yo device or do you have a new version) and when is (or would) Manfred going to release the GPSLogit Bluetooth GPS version?
I've got a potential GPSTC team of 'Young Guns' on Bonaire if we can get the price and usability correct.
Thanks!

Manfred made the bluetooth 18hz GPS receivers, he chose not to make anymore as there has been so little interest in his GPSLogit app. He did a custom version of that to work with the receiver. It's up to Manfred if he wants to produce them. He, Daffy and I use the system without any problems. The app also works with the old bluetooth GPS receiver I started using 10 years ago. The standard GPSLogit app using the onboard gps in the phone is extremely close in accuracy and great for 99% of the windsurfers out there, just not approved by GPSTC, but you can post on GPSSS with it. It's simple and a one button system that works. I still see people posting with trackpoints in GPSTC and having the posts count towards the ranking so I'm not sure why the GPSLogit app in doppler isn't accepted.

In MHO, the GPSLogit app interest was killed by the GPSTC decision not to approve the phone solution. I understand the reasoning (too many GPS chips/HW solutions to certify) but also believe that most GPSTC participants didn't want to deal with an unapproved solution so just moved on.

I LOVE GPSLogit! I've only sailed one time in the past two years without it and felt like I was sailing blind without the closed-loop speed feedback - not that it matters for my speeds, but just saying...

IMHO, if there were a GPSTC APPROVED Bluetooth GPS/GPSLogit App solution, there would be significantly more demand. Where else can you get complete stats, visual feedback on your arm with sensor in your helmet, audio speed real-time updates, and your favorite tunes when you stop sailing?

Plus, drop/break/loose your phone, it is $30-40, not $250 for a replacement GW-60. I like my GW-60 for the easy to read display. I could easily do without it if GPSLogit would auto cycle through the GPSTC categories and provide audio feedback at the end of a run...

Barton get them started on the phone/bag/GPSLogit/earphone setup. Can buy them cheap in the USA and send them down to you. Get's them interested in speed and if they like it they can always upgrade to the GW60 and start posting. They don't really need the GPSTC to get some friendly local rivalry going, they can set up a local comp on GPSSS and post there like we do with the USA Speed Challenge: www.gps-speedsurfing.com/default.aspx?mnu=event&val=478

More than happy to help you set it up if needs be.

Select to expand quote

bartontb said..
In MHO, the GPSLogit app interest was killed by the GPSTC decision not to approve the phone solution.

I think that the non-approval "killed" GPSLogit is quite an overstatement. The fraction of speed surfer who want to hear their speeds while sailing is pretty darn small. I'm in that minority sometimes, but in most sessions, I don't want anything in or on my ears. Many windsurfers find convenience and waterproofing much more important. Several guys in our team used non-approved watches, and simply did not post, rather than bothering with waterproof armbands, before the GW-60 was released.

I simply think more choice is better. Some guys still like the Canmore best, despite its well-known shortcomings. Developing and testing prototypes is good fun, but if you can't buy the things in the end, it's rather pointless. A bit like having a GPSTC team where there's just one guy posting all the time.

As for why there are about 10-fold fewer users for GPSLogit than for Windsport Tracker, maybe it's differences in functionality. Or maybe it because of the difference in the text on the little green button:

Peter, thank you for your opinion of my opinion :) . I stand by my opinion until a solid fact convinces me otherwise.

Your comments prompted a little rant from me, so here goes...

My observation about GPSLogIt came from talking with windsurfers and trying to get them excited enough to at least consider joining GPSTC, and not specifically for the 'speed competition' but for the camaraderie. Cost, of course was an initial hurdle for some. Most were intrigued by the low cost of a 'throwaway phone' and the relatively low one-time-purchase cost for the app - sure, they could go the Canmore route but if they got hooked, they would eventually be ponying up more cash. But when I followed that by telling them that if they really wanted to play competitively, the entry fee was a $250 'toy' - that immediately stopped a lot of conversations. As I recall, some of your motivation for the phone/dongle/u-blox GPS/app solution was because of the initial and replacement cost of a GW-60.

I know nothing about WindsportTracker other than it was introduced only a few months ago. Of course, $0 is going to 'sell' better than an app with a price. Maybe Manfred priced himself out of the market - I don't know. I'm an engineer by training and profession, not a marketer - we know how badly most engineers deal with marketing stuff so I just leave it at that...

I still get a lot of 'hey that is cool' when I'm asked about the 'phone in a case' on my arm and I have to turn off the tunes I'm listening too to have someone re-ask the question. For me, if I had to give up the GW-60 or the phone/app, it would be the GW-60. I'm not sure how to take your comment about a GPSTC team with only one guy posting all the time (you referring to Roo and I running on separate shifts, or to you? Just curious as the answer doesn't really matter). Since I admittedly do a mostly solo sailing, it is great to have some 'companionship' when I decide to take a break and can chill to a favorite tune for a few minutes while recovering for the next session. This time of the year on Bonaire I'm likely the only one out in 'my area of the bay' so it is either listen to music and enjoy the ambiance, talk to myself, or get really bored :). For me, audio is everything.

People's lifestyle and preferences are all different. As you stated, more choice is better. My naive ranking of GPSTC approved solutions would go something like this:

phone/approved BT GPS/GPSLogIt
phone/approved dongle GPS/GPSLogit
GW-60
GW-52
....
(and for those that don't expect to influence team scores but want to be part of the fun for a low entry fee) - phone/GPSLogit (or maybe WindsportTracker).

Select to expand quote

Roo said..
Barton get them started on the phone/bag/GPSLogit/earphone setup. Can buy them cheap in the USA and send them down to you. Get's them interested in speed and if they like it they can always upgrade to the GW60 and start posting. They don't really need the GPSTC to get some friendly local rivalry going, they can set up a local comp on GPSSS and post there like we do with the USA Speed Challenge: www.gps-speedsurfing.com/default.aspx?mnu=event&val=478

More than happy to help you set it up if needs be.

Roo, will pursue this more with Taty in the near-term. He isn't familiar with GPSTC (or likely GPSSS for that matter). He had a GT-31 but would just look at vMax after a run across the bay to see the impact of tuning his gear (from what I have gathered from short discussions with him). He will be getting a GW-60 in a couple of weeks. His guidance, support, and push will be critical as he has a great relationship with the Young Guns where I'm just another old American (that wears a helmet no less... :) ).

No need to 'get them interested in speed' - they are always racing each other and sometimes humiliating me :)

Thanks for the offer on the helping with the gear - it is straightforward for me to order stuff from Amazon (or anyone else online) and get it shipped here. If a GPSTC team or GPSSS event looks likely, yes, I'll be calling for help. Thanks.

Select to expand quote

boardsurfr said..

"...... I think it telling that you can get custom fins from Fangy, but not a custom GPS....."

True, but if I could code with an angle grinder I'd be done and dusted by now

Select to expand quote

boardsurfr said..

bartontb said..
In MHO, the GPSLogit app interest was killed by the GPSTC decision not to approve the phone solution.

I think that the non-approval "killed" GPSLogit is quite an overstatement. The fraction of speed surfer who want to hear their speeds while sailing is pretty darn small. I'm in that minority sometimes, but in most sessions, I don't want anything in or on my ears. Many windsurfers find convenience and waterproofing much more important. Several guys in our team used non-approved watches, and simply did not post, rather than bothering with waterproof armbands, before the GW-60 was released.

I simply think more choice is better. Some guys still like the Canmore best, despite its well-known shortcomings. Developing and testing prototypes is good fun, but if you can't buy the things in the end, it's rather pointless. A bit like having a GPSTC team where there's just one guy posting all the time.

As for why there are about 10-fold fewer users for GPSLogit than for Windsport Tracker, maybe it's differences in functionality. Or maybe it because of the difference in the text on the little green button:

Can either of these Apps calculate average speed while doing a 1hr (and if not could they)? You'd no doubt need a 'start' button to signify the start of the one hour and then it would track your average speed as you go and count down the hour or elapsed time. I think a reset button would be needed, so if you decide to restart the 1hr you can while sailing by just pushing the reset button.

Select to expand quote

AUS02 said..

boardsurfr said..

bartontb said..
In MHO, the GPSLogit app interest was killed by the GPSTC decision not to approve the phone solution.

I think that the non-approval "killed" GPSLogit is quite an overstatement. The fraction of speed surfer who want to hear their speeds while sailing is pretty darn small. I'm in that minority sometimes, but in most sessions, I don't want anything in or on my ears. Many windsurfers find convenience and waterproofing much more important. Several guys in our team used non-approved watches, and simply did not post, rather than bothering with waterproof armbands, before the GW-60 was released.

I simply think more choice is better. Some guys still like the Canmore best, despite its well-known shortcomings. Developing and testing prototypes is good fun, but if you can't buy the things in the end, it's rather pointless. A bit like having a GPSTC team where there's just one guy posting all the time.

As for why there are about 10-fold fewer users for GPSLogit than for Windsport Tracker, maybe it's differences in functionality. Or maybe it because of the difference in the text on the little green button:

Can either of these Apps calculate average speed while doing a 1hr (and if not could they)? You'd no doubt need a 'start' button to signify the start of the one hour and then it would track your average speed as you go and count down the hour or elapsed time. I think a reset button would be needed, so if you decide to restart the 1hr you can while sailing by just pushing the reset button.

GPSLogit can. You just set it to that in settings and it reads out on the screen. It also tells you via earphones once you have sailed for an hour and then drop below your speed threshold. I use it when I'm doing hour attempts.

As I have said before, the actual construction of a BT Ublox M8n based dongle is actually quite simple in electronics construction terms. (It is just beyond my non existent skills). It consists of just a few modules/components. The Ublox gps module (with antenna), the BT module and a battery plus a 3D printed case and swtich. Manfred Fuchs built one for me as previously described. Here are some pics:

GPS module and antenna:

https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Flight-Controller-GPS-Module-For-PX4-Pixhawk-V2-4-5-APM2-56-APM-NEO-M8N-New/400880460413?ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&_trksid=p2055119.m1438.l2649


Bluetooth Module:

www.ebay.com.au/itm/1PCS-Wireless-Serial-6-Pin-Bluetooth-RF-Transceiver-Module-HC-05-RS232/301924608454?ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&_trksid=p2055119.m1438.l2649

Battery (The choices are almost endless, but this is the one example that can fit as replacement in the GT-31):

www.ebay.com.au/itm/3-7V-1000-mAh-Li-polymer-Battery-LiPo-ion-523450-for-MID-PDA-mp3-mp4-reader-mp5/261850705893?ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&_trksid=p2060353.m1438.l2649




Here is the immaculate little unit that Manfred built (not waterproof):



And in comparison with other GPS units:



And here is is one that Mathew Robertson threw together. A bit agricultural in appearance, but equally as effective. This one has the antenna mounted on a temporary ground plane made of aluminium foil and electrical tape. :-). Also no switch, just a wire to the battery to plug in. Case is Otter Box, and quite waterproof. Battery will last for many days:


Here with cheap Android Phone and a BT test version of GPS-Logit:



As I have also said before, these setups give outstandingly good results with my cheap ($20) Android phones at 10Hz, but due to the phones limited processing speed, miss a few points at 18Hz. Manfred and Roo report that better quality, higher spec phones are fine at 18Hz. I like the 10Hz setting anyhow as it is multi GNS (uses Glonass and GPS - potentially, more satellites in view) where it can only use one GNS at 18Hz.

Raymond Wortel said he could easily build these BT GPS units but too boring for him , It was better to leave it to a Chinese company to churn them out for very low dollars. Unfortunately, none have done so yet.

Select to expand quote

AUS02 said.

Can either of these Apps calculate average speed while doing a 1hr (and if not could they)? You'd no doubt need a 'start' button to signify the start of the one hour and then it would track your average speed as you go and count down the hour or elapsed time. I think a reset button would be needed, so if you decide to restart the 1hr you can while sailing by just pushing the reset button.

Not in the standard settings. The problem as explained to me is that it would take a huge amount of processing and memory capacity to have a 1 hr running average calculation in real time. But if you can see, or more appropriately, hear your speed all the time, you can get a pretty good idea if you are on a good one.

I tried using earphones but gave up as they were too messy for me. Every time I brushed the wire on something it would dislodge the earpiece and I would have to stop, take my helmet off and replace it. I can actually hear the speed talk pretty well most of the time without the headphones.

It would be nice if I could fine some affordable waterproof BT earphones!

Select to expand quote

sailquik said..

It would be nice if I could fine some affordable waterproof BT earphones!

Andrew, don't know what your definition of affordable is but Roo clued me in to these BlueAnt Wireless PUMP-BL Pump Wireless HD Sportbuds - Blue on amazon they are USD$26. I have a couple of pair (for backup in case I loose a set) and they work great. Battery lasts 4-6 hours (just a guess) as I seldom sail that long in a day.

I agree with your comment about wired earphones - almost gave up on the whole audio thing until I learned about the waterproof BT solution. They fit snuggly with my helmet on so I have no worries of loosing them when bouncing around in chop. I still marvel that Roo can keep his in at 35+ knots in the Gorge swells and chop

Andrew, thanks for posting the pictures of the BT u-blox units. Almost tempting enough to get to work in the shop and build one - except I would still need the BT GPSLogit trial app...

Thanks Barton!
Roo did send me a link to one and I think it was the second one below, but but at the time I could not get it for a good price and it didn't claime to be as waterproof. The first one is a reasonable price.
Of course that Amazon store does not ship to Australia, but a freight forwarder fixes that.

https://www.amazon.com/BlueAnt-Bluetooth-Sportbuds-Military-Components/dp/B00WGMHB7K/ref=pd_lpo_vtph_23_lp_t_3?_encoding=UTF8&psc=1&refRID=YBWWBG9WQGWVPFXADK54

This one ships to Australia for a higher price but I don't think it is as waterproof:

www.amazon.com/BlueAnt-Pump-Sportbuds-Discontinued-Manufacturer/dp/B00ISRUFSY/ref=pd_sim_107_4?_encoding=UTF8&pd_rd_i=B00ISRUFSY&pd_rd_r=1EWRHHPJZ9W6W512VQX6&pd_rd_w=ZfkSY&pd_rd_wg=6pbZ6&psc=1&refRID=1EWRHHPJZ9W6W512VQX6

Back to Boardsurfr's original post.

Mat and I bought a couple of those Ublox GPS dongles about a year ago. I tested it on my computer and it seemed quite good.

The problem we had with connecting to to our phone was the one you mention in your Blog that I have highlighted below:

"A Samsung Galaxy J3 Luna Pro phone running Android. I bought it for $30 at Best Buy.
A USB GPS dongle with a U-blox 7 chip that I bought for $15 from Amazon (like this one).
A USB "On-The-Go" cable for about $5 (like this one) to connect the dongle to the phone (note that the phone must support USB OTG - not all phones do!)."

I remember that YOYO had the same idea well before that, but had trouble finding a phone that had USB OTG as well.

Things may have changed by now and obviously you have found at least one inexpensive phone that does support USB OTG in the Samsung Galaxy J3 Luna Pro. Now we need to see if it available with that spec in Australia at a reasonable price.

Select to expand quote

sailquik said..
Back to Boardsurfr's original post.

Mat and I bought a couple of those Ublox GPS dongles about a year ago. I tested it on my computer and it seemed quite good.

The problem we had with connecting to to our phone was the one you mention in your Blog that I have highlighted below:

"A Samsung Galaxy J3 Luna Pro phone running Android. I bought it for $30 at Best Buy.
A USB GPS dongle with a U-blox 7 chip that I bought for $15 from Amazon (like this one).
A USB "On-The-Go" cable for about $5 (like this one) to connect the dongle to the phone (note that the phone must support USB OTG - not all phones do!)."

I remember that YOYO had the same idea well before that, but had trouble finding a phone that had USB OTG as well.

Things may have changed by now and obviously you have found at least one inexpensive phone that does support USB OTG in the Samsung Galaxy J3 Luna Pro. Now we need to see if it available with that spec in Australia at a reasonable price.

There's an app for that.This will tell you if your phone is otg capble: play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.app.usbotgchecker&hl=en

I suspect I know what is causing the loss of data in the results, will check it on Tuesday to make sure.

Thanks Roo, that app could be very useful.

I just had a quick search and I don't think that model phone, the Samsung Galaxy J3 Luna Pro, is sold in Australia. Cheapest I found was $105 from the USA. Boardsurfr got one a lot cheaper it seems.

Of course, there is always a Bespoke ublox based GPS from Gyro.



It is based on the Ublox M8 gps chipset and will do almost everything you could want. He is even working on an idea to transmit results to the beach for live speed updates!

So far it is still in the testing and development stages, but it sounds like it is getting very close to a final product (Low volume, built to order).

If you are an insomniac like Fangy and I, you can read a 'book' about it's development here (It's in Dutch so I use Google Chrome to auto translate):

forum.windsurfing.nl/viewtopic.php?f=62&t=13890429

His website is here: gearloose.nl/

Got that one as well, doesn't have the audio feedback but good stand alone unit.

Select to expand quote

Roo said..

AUS02 said..

boardsurfr said..

bartontb said..
In MHO, the GPSLogit app interest was killed by the GPSTC decision not to approve the phone solution.

I think that the non-approval "killed" GPSLogit is quite an overstatement. The fraction of speed surfer who want to hear their speeds while sailing is pretty darn small. I'm in that minority sometimes, but in most sessions, I don't want anything in or on my ears. Many windsurfers find convenience and waterproofing much more important. Several guys in our team used non-approved watches, and simply did not post, rather than bothering with waterproof armbands, before the GW-60 was released.

I simply think more choice is better. Some guys still like the Canmore best, despite its well-known shortcomings. Developing and testing prototypes is good fun, but if you can't buy the things in the end, it's rather pointless. A bit like having a GPSTC team where there's just one guy posting all the time.

As for why there are about 10-fold fewer users for GPSLogit than for Windsport Tracker, maybe it's differences in functionality. Or maybe it because of the difference in the text on the little green button:

Can either of these Apps calculate average speed while doing a 1hr (and if not could they)? You'd no doubt need a 'start' button to signify the start of the one hour and then it would track your average speed as you go and count down the hour or elapsed time. I think a reset button would be needed, so if you decide to restart the 1hr you can while sailing by just pushing the reset button.

GPSLogit can. You just set it to that in settings and it reads out on the screen. It also tells you via earphones once you have sailed for an hour and then drop below your speed threshold. I use it when I'm doing hour attempts.

Thanks Roo. Just tried it driving around in the car and it does show your speed (currently 55.05 knots), once above the set minimum, and also your average speed since starting (15.16 knots), elapsed time (00:54:39) and distance travelled (25.57 km), which is all what I was after, but the average speed is only in small font until you complete the 1hr. I wonder whether it would be worth making the change to have the average speed shown above the current speed, where the 'na' is in the image below? This would make it a lot easier to see while sailing? Not sure what happens once you complete your hr, perhaps it could 'flash' and keep tracking your average speed? Thoughts?

OK. I found the email reply from Manfred when I asked if a 1hr division could be included in GPS-Logit:

Me: 'The feedback of division results from the display is fantastic. Is it possible to include a 1hr function? Perhaps it could even be in a seperate window just for 1Hr attempts if necessary?"

[i]Manfred: this maybe a performance issue since for every new point the previous 3600 seconds have to be processed.

From this reply I assume it might be possible, but it would cause problems with processing power and speed. Remember this is at 10hz with my Ublox BT GPS. So that would require processing of 3600 points every 0.1 seconds, as well as still doing all the other divisions concurrently.