OK guys I'm after some ideas here.

We've had a couple of situations recently where some tracks were requested to be checked. This leads to a track request being sent to the person involved, they check their data and send their tracks back.

The problem with this situation is that all kinds of emotional angst is triggered by this. "Is someone questioning my honesty" is a common theme. Which is entirely understandable.

GPSSS do things a different way, they have a whole army of timekeepers, and they verify any PB that is set. This means that your PB doesn't count until someone has checked your track.

I don't want to go down this route, at the moment there's only me who checks tracks (apart from the timekeeper who does anything that I can't figure out) and there's no way I'll ever check every PB.

At the moment I'm thinking of an automated solution -- perhaps people could check each other's tracks? Would this work?
I was hoping that KA72.com would be able to be integrated into something like this, so that you could submit your track to there, and it would show if everything's OK.

It's frightening how quickly a challenge can turn a person into a quivering wreck, which obviously is really and truly not the idea. I'm even considering not checking tracks at all!

More than anything, the solution should stop anyone ever feeling that they should leave the site. I really really don't want anyone to feel that way. Ever.

Let's keep it fun people, it's not sheep stations!!!

How about any PB's being checked by the team captain before posting.
This would put the onus back on the team to keep each other honest.

I agree, the team captain could verify data to take the pressure off you nebbs, plus use the KA72 site would be good.

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Gaz45 said...

How about any PB's being checked by the team captain before posting.
This would put the onus back on the team to keep each other honest.

Problem for me would be that I dont know if I have a PB until I have posted.

Plus if the team captain checks the tracks, doesnt that still take away any perceived impartiality? If people want tracks checked, I think nebbian is on the right track (pardon the pun) by looking at something like KA72.com - a system thats completey impartial and automated.

But why all the fuss anyway?? If someone is fudging their tracks, the only person they are really cheating is themselves.

If it was up to me I wouldnt bother checking other peoples tracks. All seems a bit petty to me.

I've been checked out on GPSSS a number of times (3 or 4 I thunk) and can honestly say I felt quite paranoid the first time, have I done everything right? unfortunately the first time it was a f/up but I did learn how I'd done it.

After that it was no problems, there was no witch hunt, no name and shame process, just an email a check of the file and another email back.

I've done quite a few session checks for peoples who have had trouble with data or just starting out and would have no prob's with being a checker (cash or credit cards also accepted not to mention Browns Coffee chill), but in my opinion it should all be done in the background naming and claiming in the session is questioning that persons integrity and honour publicly.

As Neb's said "Let's keep it fun people, it's not sheep stations!!!"

On the rare occasions that I get a PB, I send the file to my team captain and ask him to check it.

Maybe just a slight rework of this paragraph in the rules

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Responsibility:

You are responsible for your own data. You must believe that you actually did a certain speed before you post that number, however you work it out. This website works mostly by the honesty system, and if you aren't honest with your numbers, then you will be found out eventually.

To highlight the fact that some tracks will be checked.

also, and I know this ads more work but, possibly check more tracks more often, so people become accustomed to being checked.

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Gaz45 said...

How about any PB's being checked by the team captain before posting.
This would put the onus back on the team to keep each other honest.

Thanks Gaz wait till I get my hands on you

I'm always happy to help my team (or anyone) but I'm not too keen on checking everyone's files all the time and posting, we are a big mob now, I'm only here for fun

Neb's just leave it as is Mate.

You have called a few of my files in to be checked and I don't give a rats, nothing to hide so don't care. If people don't like it, they need to harden up, just be glad that they have shown up on someones radar

I have made mistakes but I can't remember Nebs asking me to bend over and recieve a free mast, he and Elmo have both been very helpful when I was having trouble getting my head around some of this.

I have never found the need to question someone anyway, wtf would I care if they cheated, they'd only cheat themselves.

My 2c.
And I am aware of one of the disputes that Nebb's is talking about.
Here is an example.
You blast about do a great run and then get back to the beech and find the card is not sitting properly in the GT, you check the unit and note the fastest speed in knots.
You try later to get the data out of the GPS and find nothing to support it.
Do you post the speed or not?

If you decide to post it and it changes the team position what do you do then?

I think the team captain verification is the way to go and how it has been run as part of the two teams I have belonged to.

I'd like to see the topic "GPS Speed Sessions" which was used once but is not now, removed (or left) and replaced with another topic
"Post your PB's Here"
this would allow anyone to view the PB track, I like to see other tracks and load them into Google Earth, see where people sail, go through the data and look at where they hit the peak speed or Alpha's.
If the GTC is all about fun, I'm sure no one will have a problem posting a PB track and allowing anyone to view that track!
PB tracks could be deleted automatically after a set time (7-21 days) or set to a ranking per Spot, with only the top one or two times staying on the topic (to save space, or not).
Any challenge that comes up against a PB track should be handled via "Private Message" rather than in public. not everyone is good with the software and some mistakes are made, handle these mistakes in the back ground so that a mistake is not looked upon as someone trying to cheat !

Only a suggestion.. feel free to pull it apart

David

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graceman said...

My 2c.
And I am aware of one of the disputes that Nebb's is talking about.
Here is an example.
You blast about do a great run and then get back to the beech and find the card is not sitting properly in the GT, you check the unit and note the fastest speed in knots.
You try later to get the data out of the GPS and find nothing to support it.
Do you post the speed or not?

I think the team captain verification is the way to go and how it has been run as part of the two teams I have belonged to.

I have had my GPS fail me before where all i had was a PB max display of 37.3knts.
I couldn't post any scores as i had no data. Although very heart breaking thats the way it goes.

I thinks that's the litmus test. IF you have data you can post. max display only, is not data.

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Bender said...

graceman said...

My 2c.
And I am aware of one of the disputes that Nebb's is talking about.
Here is an example.
You blast about do a great run and then get back to the beech and find the card is not sitting properly in the GT, you check the unit and note the fastest speed in knots.
You try later to get the data out of the GPS and find nothing to support it.
Do you post the speed or not?

I think the team captain verification is the way to go and how it has been run as part of the two teams I have belonged to.

I have had my GPS fail me before where all i had was a PB max display of 37.3knts.
I couldn't post any scores as i had no data. Although very heart breaking thats the way it goes.

I thinks that's the litmus test. IF you have data you can post. max display only, is not data.

I agree

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S018 said...

I'd like to see the topic "GPS Speed Sessions" which was used once but is not now, removed (or left) and replaced with another topic
"Post your PB's Here"
this would allow anyone to view the PB track, I like to see other tracks and load them into Google Earth, see where people sail, go through the data and look at where they hit the peak speed or Alpha's.
If the GTC is all about fun, I'm sure no one will have a problem posting a PB track and allowing anyone to view that track!
PB tracks could be deleted automatically after a set time (7-21 days) or set to a ranking per Spot, with only the top one or two times staying on the topic (to save space, or not).
Any challenge that comes up against a PB track should be handled via "Private Message" rather than in public. not everyone is good with the software and some mistakes are made, handle these mistakes in the back ground so that a mistake is not looked upon as someone trying to cheat !

Only a suggestion.. feel free to pull it apart

David

Sounds OK Dave, Neb's will have to work it out so files can be uploaded and downloaded on the GTC site. I just wonder how much work all this is for him which he does basicly for love.

I quite like the Idea of maybe the Team captain or perhaps an allocated timekeeper in each state. Im sure nobody puts in the wrong figures purposely but it is easy to make a mistake particularly if your new to all this.
And none of the software is perfect

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Bender said...


I have had my GPS fail me before where all i had was a PB max display of 37.3knts.
I couldn't post any scores as i had no data. Although very heart breaking thats the way it goes.

I thinks that's the litmus test. IF you have data you can post. max display only, is not data.

I agree with Bender, but I'm we're not running the site
The current problem is not whether a track is legit but whether you can or should post a Screen Display with no backup data.

I don't think anyone has ever posted false information intentionally.
Checking tracks is simple & Nebs could easily subbie that out to various people or Captains anonymously for verification.

I think a few guidelines or rules need to be put in place or communicated if already in place to avoid disputes.

It does seem petty but can affect more than one team's position when this happens.

Some people do take this very seriously, right wrong or otherwise.

Personally I just want a 35 Knot PB

Consensus on this thread seems to be...no data = no post.

I am happy to abide by this. The session I posted (based on display speed only) was not a PB, and has not materially changed the results for the month (Pinna's still 2nd in June ...so far), so I couldn't see the harm in posting. Like a lot of sailors I imagine the GPSTC site doubles as a personal blog of my windsurfing activity, and I like to post my sessions regardless of my scores (or lack thereof). Point taken...I can still do this and enter zero in all categories.

Perhaps Nebs this needs to be communicated to avoid future disputes? (No data = no scores, but feel free to enter a narrative for your personal records).

I have zeroed my max speed for the session in question, and I won't post speeds again without a track...I don't need the hassle.

I can see no harm posting a display speed if it makes no diff to team result and I would do the same

The problem with display speeds is they can be way out, when in WA earlier this year I got a display max over 40 knots on the river, the look on Chris L's face was gold when he thought I was faster software took it down to 33 I also got a display of 50+ at Dutch Inn but a 29 with software. Funny it has never happened again here in Qld.

Unless you change your settings, max display speed is 1 second, not 2 second.

If you post that as your two second max, it will be too high.

tea cup + storm

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Bender said...

tea cup + storm

equals a very small sailing spot.

i think IMO the best (obvious) solution has allways been that the captain of the team
( or a team member so selected by the majority of the team to be the nominated time keeper)
checks/verifys the individuals tracks.
with an option for a final ajudication by the challenge site owners.

perhaps, as an alternative a system similar to the red thumb green thumb can be added to a persons session to flag a possible(consensus) that there is a possible error?

usually the alpha and 2 sec are the tricky categories to spot a problem with.

as for checking pb's this is fine how ever checking should not be restricted to just pb's.
this is a team competition not an individual competition.

Well I'm wrong, I thought that the rules stated, no data no post, Thought there was something about keeping the data for a certain time so it could be checked, in case of any questions.
But I've just looked thru the rules and can't see it, may be it should be added, just for clarification.
After all you can't blame somebody for posting something they believe to be correct, but don't have a file to prove it, if the rules don't mention anything about it.

I have enough trouble remembering to take the GT11 with me let alone downloading to google earth or anything else.
When you look at your tracks on realspeed it usually makes some sort of sense for all the divisions but not having the skill to really tinker with it if it doesnt look right it probably isnt.
I for one couldnt possibly check anyones data.(but I'm a dab hand with a nailgun)
Just make it easy for Nebs.

My thoughts:
there should be a very minimum time needed by any administrators of the GTC, first comes sailing and having fun, administering GTC should not become more time consuming.

I am generally sceptical of any new pb I manage and generally submit the file for verification when I manage one.

I love to use the GTC as a blog and have posted a couple of zero score posts when I have forgotten my GPS, I like to track my sessions and hope to continue even when daft enough to leave GPS at home.

It may not be for sheep stations to some but to many I have met it is very serious. I think there is room for casual as well as fiercely competitive team members and to keep all involved I reckon numbers in any divisions that could change team positions should be verifiable: tracks should be able to be sent.

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firiebob said...

Gaz45 said...

How about any PB's being checked by the team captain before posting.
This would put the onus back on the team to keep each other honest.

Thanks Gaz wait till I get my hands on you

I'm always happy to help my team (or anyone) but I'm not too keen on checking everyone's files all the time and posting, we are a big mob now, I'm only here for fun

Only files with PB's in them Firie.
Even with the team getting bigger we won't be getting PB's every session.

I was trying to make you feel like part of the team when your working and we're out at Green doing it hard.

Ocean Blue I don't know my PB's either until I post but there shouldn't be a problem with checking after you post and if you find an error you just edit your data.

Many thanks guys, I really appreciate the discussion and consensus

OK, from now on you must be able to verify your tracks to be able to post. If your GPS doesn't record a track, then bad luck, tough cheese, too bad so sad.

This means that tracks such as the first one on this page:
gpsteamchallenge.com.au/sailor_session/show?date=2007-06-09&team=1
will not be allowed. So look out the person who posted this, I know where you live, and will be requesting any track that looks even mildly like you didn't get a track from your GPS!

I will update the rules asap.

Cheers

The bloke who posted that data keeps changing teams..... I wonder if I now know why

I think we should instigate the wearing of one of these devices immediately.

Specifications
minimaxX units and garment
5 Hz GPS for more accurate speed, distance, position and acceleration
3D Accelerometers recording at 100Hz for measuring impact, body loading, reaction times and more
3D Magnetometers recording at 30Hz for analysing direction of movement
(are you running forwards or backwards)
3D Gyroscopes recording at 100Hz
with a resolution of up to 1200 degrees per second for biomechanics analysis (roll, pitch or yaw, turn rate)
Heart Rate recording from Polar compatible straps
Wireless broadcast of performance
data for up to 100 units simultaneously at 5 times per second at 250m (2.4GHz spread spectrum )
Color LC Display available on selected models for local feedback
High intensity status LED for
unit diagnostics
USB 2.0 high speed interface
for data upload
5 hours battery life
1GB internal flash memory
Integrated heart rate garment to avoid conventional, uncomfortable HR straps

Therefore we can build up a signature of each individual competitor including heart rate to make sure that there can be no substitution of data by another team member or cheating using a vehicle. Data is broadcast wirelessly to a collection point at each sailing site. I am currently working on a DNA sample attachment to prove without a shadow of a doubt that the data is valid.

Of course it doesnt help the I left it at home, forgot to put the card in, I didnt charge it or it @### itself problem

Seriously though, I think the post on GPSTC that started this was said somewhat in jest (help me out here Bogdog) and as Bender has said it is all a bit of a storm in a tea cup.
I agree a post of display speed shouldn't count for rankings but if you deduct the usual amount (1/2 knot or so) you will be about on the numbers for a 2sec. If we get too picky we will be back in the same problem zone as which GPS can be used and can we really post to a reliability of even one decimal place?

Now where is my sheep station

Mark, i agree with all that has been said.
For me personally , its not fun anymore and have resigned as team captain. and from the challenge.
I wish the best to the teams in the event.
I also would like to thank the organizers ,it has been the best thing for sailboarding .
I 'll see you all on the water, good winds

From a newbie and a rather mediocre sailor: I thought it was all pretty obvious that you had to have data to post. Otherwise why not go back to dead reckoning. I reckon I got catapulted at 70 knots in January!

It seems odd to post a display time when you can't back it up. Which sounds to me a bit like selling unripe lemons as limes. Looks like a lime, feels like a lime - tastes like a lemon.

I too have felt cheated by my GPS - sometimes its copped a knock and "displays" a faster speed - data has then shown that the displayed speed is not true. So I didn't do the speed and didn't post it.

Unfortunately every now and then great things get spoiled by people who want to be seen to be the "best". I personally don't give a rats what others have done - but if you are going to compete, you should compete in the spirit of the competition.

While its great to have winners, the greatest winner to date has been the sport of windsurfing and the comraderie that has grown from individuals who have been passing on tips and assistance in helping each other improve the skills. Its this comraderie that has lifted me from being just another anonymous face on the beach to someone who is keen to get to know others and promote the sport.

FINAL WORD: You shouldn't be able to claim a speed without the data. The data shows that you were on the river and not driving to HJ's for a burger. If its dodgy its dodgy and don't post it. ITS AS SIMPLE AS THAT.