I think someone needs to talk to the Shark Bay salt mines to get a channel cut in for this purpose.
Definitely a consistent wind up there during summer

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Stuthepirate said..
I think someone needs to talk to the Shark Bay salt mines to get a channel cut in for this purpose.
Definitely a consistent wind up there during summer

I think the kitesurfers already have :)

Even the perfect ditch won't help much because windsurfing speeds have
already reached the point of diminishing returns. The only record likely to
be broken from this point in time is the number of sailors injured or maimed
each year.

The following reference is a forum discussion of how close water speeds are
to ice speeds (note that the surface drag on ice is much less than on
water): www.gps-speedsurfing.com/default.aspx?mnu=forum&forum=1&val=36081

FWIW the following article in Catalyst, entitled 'Hyperwind Sailing', offers an
explanation: www.ayrs.org/Catalyst_N06_Oct_2001.pdf

Select to expand quote

barney831 said..
Even the perfect ditch won't help much because windsurfing speeds have
already reached the point of diminishing returns. The only record likely to
be broken from this point in time is the number of sailors injured or maimed
each year.

The following reference is a forum discussion of how close water speeds are
to ice speeds (note that the surface drag on ice is much less than on
water): www.gps-speedsurfing.com/default.aspx?mnu=forum&forum=1&val=36081

FWIW the following article in Catalyst, entitled 'Hyperwind Sailing', offers an
explanation: www.ayrs.org/Catalyst_N06_Oct_2001.pdf

Hi Barney, I have done some background reading based on the your articles. One aspect of them that I cannot trace - what is hyper-wind in the context of sailing, and what is a foehn-number ? I have tried to find references to them in existing literature, but I can only find them in papers that you have published. Can you provide some links to existing info?

Regarding the close speeds on ice vs water.... I'm not sure I agree. I dont have any practical experience ice-sailing, so obviously my understanding could be rubbish.
This video appears to show that the speed sailing is done at about 100-110 degrees to the wind (vs. the faster you go, the deeper you should go):

Icespeeds are close to waterspeeds but you have to put into perspective in what kind of conditions both are sailed. Albeau's record has been sailed in 40 to 50 knots windspeed in a special trench.

If you take a look at the rankings on www.gps-icesailing.com/default.aspx?mnu=rankings you will see a lot of Dutchies reach 80+ and some even 90+ avg's. I have to point out that when we've got ice overhere we are generally in calm weather and have either northerly or easterly winds. These winds generally never exceed 20 knots and in gusts might reach 30 knots.

If you lookup Pieter Hamstra, Gerlof Hansma or Peter Vernet on GPS Speedsurfing you will see hugh difference in speed between ice and wind. Having a bit of knowledge about the places these guys icesail I can tell you that there is no way as much space as in the Youtube clip posted by Mathew.

Also if you look at the sailsizes used you will see the icesailors use anywhere from 4.5 to 6.5 sails in moderate winds. When windsurfing in the same windspeeds you generally use sails up to 2 m2 bigger.

I rekon if there's enough space, constant windspeeds over 30 knots and some top GPS speedsailors the ice record will be much higher!

Select to expand quote

mathew said..

barney831 said..
Even the perfect ditch won't help much because windsurfing speeds have
already reached the point of diminishing returns. The only record likely to
be broken from this point in time is the number of sailors injured or maimed
each year.

The following reference is a forum discussion of how close water speeds are
to ice speeds (note that the surface drag on ice is much less than on
water): www.gps-speedsurfing.com/default.aspx?mnu=forum&forum=1&val=36081

FWIW the following article in Catalyst, entitled 'Hyperwind Sailing', offers an
explanation: www.ayrs.org/Catalyst_N06_Oct_2001.pdf

Hi Barney, I have done some background reading based on the your articles. One aspect of them that I cannot trace - what is hyper-wind in the context of sailing, and what is a foehn-number ? I have tried to find references to them in existing literature, but I can only find them in papers that you have published. Can you provide some links to existing info?
Regarding the close speeds on ice vs water.... I'm not sure I agree. I dont have any practical experience ice-sailing, so obviously my understanding could be rubbish.
This video appears to show that the speed sailing is done at about 100-110 degrees to the wind (vs. the faster you go, the deeper you should go):

The suffix hyper means over, above or beyond. Hyperwind is just a discriptive term that I used for the contents of the article. Unlike many dimensionless ratios in science and engineering, there is no commonly accepted name for the ratio of board/boat speed to the wind speed. I like the term Foehn Number for this ratio because Foehn is the name of a type of wind. There is no precedent but you're welcome to use it if you like.

In a steady wind, there is an optimum angle off the wind where maximum board speed is reached. The rule of thumb 'deeper is faster' only applies up to the optimum angle; beyond that deeper is slower. The optimum angle is mathematically tractable and can be found with a good performance predication model. Overpowered iceboats commonly turn downwind to slow down.

Select to expand quote

TheTank said..
Icespeeds are close to waterspeeds but you have to put into perspective in what kind of conditions both are sailed. Albeau's record has been sailed in 40 to 50 knots windspeed in a special trench.
If you take a look at the rankings on www.gps-icesailing.com/default.aspx?mnu=rankings you will see a lot of Dutchies reach 80+ and some even 90+ avg's. I have to point out that when we've got ice overhere we are generally in calm weather and have either northerly or easterly winds. These winds generally never exceed 20 knots and in gusts might reach 30 knots.
If you lookup Pieter Hamstra, Gerlof Hansma or Peter Vernet on GPS Speedsurfing you will see hugh difference in speed between ice and wind. Having a bit of knowledge about the places these guys icesail I can tell you that there is no way as much space as in the Youtube clip posted by Mathew.
Also if you look at the sailsizes used you will see the icesailors use anywhere from 4.5 to 6.5 sails in moderate winds. When windsurfing in the same windspeeds you generally use sails up to 2 m2 bigger.
I rekon if there's enough space, constant windspeeds over 30 knots and some top GPS speedsailors the ice record will be much higher!

If you plot record speed vs time, the curve is asymptoting towards a constant value (i.e. diminishing return). As the wind speed increases the Foehn Number that can be reached decreases. Albeau's record of 52 kts was reached in gusty wind near 50 kts (FN ~ 1). The Foehn Number for Jeff Brown's record was closer to 2.

Jeff Brown is a very good sailor but I don't know if he is 'world class' or not. If any of the softwater record holders want to challenge his record on ice, I'm sure he would enjoy the competiton.

Select to expand quote

barney831 said..
Even the perfect ditch won't help much because windsurfing speeds have
already reached the point of diminishing returns. The only record likely to
be broken from this point in time is the number of sailors injured or maimed
each year.

The following reference is a forum discussion of how close water speeds are
to ice speeds (note that the surface drag on ice is much less than on
water): www.gps-speedsurfing.com/default.aspx?mnu=forum&forum=1&val=36081

FWIW the following article in Catalyst, entitled 'Hyperwind Sailing', offers an
explanation: www.ayrs.org/Catalyst_N06_Oct_2001.pdf

Hi Barney,
The interest in the 'perfect ditch' is more from the point that many of the less professional sailors can have a chance to get closer to the maximum speeds possible. Probably more so than actually breaking Antoines record. There are plenty of us that would just like to crack 50 knots and we know that it requires pretty special conditions that are very rarely available at even the best natural speed courses. Also to make 40 knot runs more easily available as well for those just getting a taste of high speed windsurfing.

As I said before, the recent advances in Windsurfing and Kitesurfing speed records are more down to optimising the wind and water conditions available than any significant advances in equipment, although those can't be completely discounted. For windsurfers to go faster we would need the ability to go broader in those very strong winds over 40 knots. The natural limitation to that is that at anything over about 140 degrees broad, the following rolling chop makes it too dangerous and hampers speed. Hence the discussions about building a course with artificial 'weed' to damp the waves on a very broad course.

Your graph of the progress of record speeds is excellent and very informative but they are quite out of date now, as is the catalyst article. Do you have any interest in updating them?

Select to expand quote

barney831 said.

If you plot record speed vs time, the curve is asymptoting towards a constant value (i.e. diminishing return). As the wind speed increases the Foehn Number that can be reached decreases. Albeau's record of 52 kts was reached in gusty wind near 50 kts (FN ~ 1). The Foehn Number for Jeff Brown's record was closer to 2.

Jeff Brown is a very good sailor but I don't know if he is 'world class' or not. If any of the softwater record holders want to challenge his record on ice, I'm sure he would enjoy the competiton.

Existing sailing records are here (albeit the most recent records arn't windsurfing): en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Speed_sailing_record

It doesn't appear to be asymtoting -> what we see for windsurfing is some asymtoting, before it then leaps a knot or two. A big part of the continual progression, is having access to a good venue (as is better gear, and better sailors).

What is more interesting is to see the big leaps for kitesurfing and sailrocket... SR in particular isnt power-limited as it has an aileron which self-stabilises some of the righting moment (other physical configuration aspects come into play too).

Select to expand quote

barney831 said..

The suffix hyper means over, above or beyond. Hyperwind is just a discriptive term that I used for the contents of the article. Unlike many dimensionless ratios in science and engineering, there is no commonly accepted name for the ratio of board/boat speed to the wind speed. I like the term Foehn Number for this ratio because Foehn is the name of a type of wind. There is no precedent but you're welcome to use it if you like.

In a steady wind, there is an optimum angle off the wind where maximum board speed is reached. The rule of thumb 'deeper is faster' only applies up to the optimum angle; beyond that deeper is slower. The optimum angle is mathematically tractable and can be found with a good performance predication model. Overpowered iceboats commonly turn downwind to slow down.

Foehn Number sounds like a reasonable description... usually in sailing it may be called Downwind-VMG ( Velocity Made Good ), but that doesn't convey the same meaning as the Foehn number. As we have seen with SailRocket, it is possible to achieve FN > 2 while travelling at high speeds (the website says just on 30kn windspeed).

Regarding the iceboats turning downwind - is that more an artifact that most of them are built like a yacht (ie: with a boom that cannot pivot around the front)... if they were to round-up, they would topple over?

Select to expand quote

sailquik said..

barney831 said..
Even the perfect ditch won't help much because windsurfing speeds have
already reached the point of diminishing returns. The only record likely to
be broken from this point in time is the number of sailors injured or maimed
each year.

The following reference is a forum discussion of how close water speeds are
to ice speeds (note that the surface drag on ice is much less than on
water): www.gps-speedsurfing.com/default.aspx?mnu=forum&forum=1&val=36081

FWIW the following article in Catalyst, entitled 'Hyperwind Sailing', offers an
explanation: www.ayrs.org/Catalyst_N06_Oct_2001.pdf

Hi Barney,
The interest in the 'perfect ditch' is more from the point that many of the less professional sailors can have a chance to get closer to the maximum speeds possible. Probably more so than actually breaking Antoines record. There are plenty of us that would just like to crack 50 knots and we know that it requires pretty special conditions that are very rarely available at even the best natural speed courses. Also to make 40 knot runs more easily available as well for those just getting a taste of high speed windsurfing.
As I said before, the recent advances in Windsurfing and Kitesurfing speed records are more down to optimising the wind and water conditions available than any significant advances in equipment, although those can't be completely discounted. For windsurfers to go faster we would need the ability to go broader in those very strong winds over 40 knots. The natural limitation to that is that at anything over about 140 degrees broad, the following rolling chop makes it too dangerous and hampers speed. Hence the discussions about building a course with artificial 'weed' to damp the waves on a very broad course.
Your graph of the progress of record speeds is excellent and very informative but they are quite out of date now, as is the catalyst article. Do you have any interest in updating them?

Hi Andrew,

The graph that appeared in Catalyst as a preface to my article is not mine, it was done by the late Richard Boehmer. It could easily be extended to today by anyone that is interested using data from GPSSS.

By going to an artificial ditch in a part of the world with consistently high winds, windsurfers have managed to increase their record speed to that achieved on ice. Some apparently think that they could do better on ice but that may just be arrogance speaking. For windsurfers who don't have access to ice, similar speeds are possible with a windsurfing rig on a properly designed wheeled board. Current wheeled boards (at least those that I am faimilar with) have a dynamic instability mode known as 'high speed wobble'. While this mode can be eliminated through proper design, the risk associated with board sailing on land remains extreme - although perhaps not any more extreme than windsurfing at 50+ knots in a narrow ditch. Ice sailing is slightly less extreme because you slide, not roll, when you fall off.

As you point out, a higher design wind speed requires a broader reach for maximum (water)board speed - with the concomitant rolling chop. Artifical 'weeds' may help dampen the chop but would be very expensive and may not work well enough to justify the cost. Changes to the design of the ditch could also help reduce the chop although it is not possible to eliminate it completely.

Select to expand quote

mathew said..

barney831 said..

The suffix hyper means over, above or beyond. Hyperwind is just a discriptive term that I used for the contents of the article. Unlike many dimensionless ratios in science and engineering, there is no commonly accepted name for the ratio of board/boat speed to the wind speed. I like the term Foehn Number for this ratio because Foehn is the name of a type of wind. There is no precedent but you're welcome to use it if you like.

In a steady wind, there is an optimum angle off the wind where maximum board speed is reached. The rule of thumb 'deeper is faster' only applies up to the optimum angle; beyond that deeper is slower. The optimum angle is mathematically tractable and can be found with a good performance predication model. Overpowered iceboats commonly turn downwind to slow down.

Foehn Number sounds like a reasonable description... usually in sailing it may be called Downwind-VMG ( Velocity Made Good ), but that doesn't convey the same meaning as the Foehn number. As we have seen with SailRocket, it is possible to achieve FN > 2 while travelling at high speeds (the website says just on 30kn windspeed).
Regarding the iceboats turning downwind - is that more an artifact that most of them are built like a yacht (ie: with a boom that cannot pivot around the front)... if they were to round-up, they would topple over?

Hi Mathew,

At high Foehn Numbers the apparent wind is alway coming from a few degrees off the nose of the iceboat. Unlike softwater sailboats the range of sheeting angles required is quite small. The point that I was trying to make is that headings upwind or downwind of the optimum heading for maximum speed are slower.