Gee Chris I just tried to make a statement that in general our whole modern lifestyle is bad for the planet. Not that any particular possession or item is worse than a car. The totality of our existence is pretty significant and the govt targets one bit.
as a kid I remember we turned the AC on a handful of days a year. Now we have a far greater use by a much bigger population and I do believe the govt should rein in power use by way of building design and an education campaign. Because when a million people turn on the AC at 6pm when they get home it's a huge issue but now they're all going to plug in an EV too ...

attitudes need to change more than arguing about the numbers

The government does reign in power use in building with regulation, building codes etc They started 15 or more years ago implementing change.

its done slowly to avoid pumping construction prices but it is done and the point of change in the building industry now compared to 20 years ago is significant.

glad to see car makers now getting the same regulations and rules.

negative is inflation

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Chris 249 said..

Ian K said..

peterowensbabs said..
1) what has this got to do with windsurfing?

Windsurfing wouldn't exist if we weren't in the middle of the boom in private transport. .

A fair bit of windsurfing exists in some cities and areas with people storing boards at waterside clubs and commercial facilities.

Yes it's possible to base your windsurfing from a waterside club, but would the widespread adoption that supported the industry that refined the gear to its present level have happened? Before you set up a machine to produce a 1.8kg carbon mast you need to be sure of selling a few. Without cars we might have one small company making a few Wallys to sit on shelves in yacht clubs.

80% of oil is burnt, 20% makes plastics. What would the price of plastic be without that economy of scale?

Just a matter of fact.
Flex has been using his Tesla to do Perth- Albany windsurfing trips for years.

If we get vehicle to grid working, EVs could help solve the energy transition.
They can charge during cheap low use times, at night or the middle of the day.
Most EVs these days have enough storage to do several days for the average city commute.

There is an "EV" rate that is very cheap at night but more expensive during the day. If people aren't charging from their solar panels, I'm sure that's what they'd be doing.

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decrepit said..
Just a matter of fact.
Flex has been using his Tesla to do Perth- Albany windsurfing trips for years.

If we get vehicle to grid working, EVs could help solve the energy transition.
They can charge during cheap low use times, at night or the middle of the day.
Most EVs these days have enough storage to do several days for the average city commute.

There is an "EV" rate that is very cheap at night but more expensive during the day. If people aren't charging from their solar panels, I'm sure that's what they'd be doing.

Where does he charge. That's an 800km round trip. It's simply not possible for me to do that at the spots I go without sitting at a charge point for an hour+ either before or after the beach.

toyota were working on a hydrogen / electric system that would solve that issue.

not keen to buy a nazi car anyways.. so limited to mg or byd

Select to expand quote

Mark _australia said..
Gee Chris I just tried to make a statement that in general our whole modern lifestyle is bad for the planet. Not that any particular possession or item is worse than a car. The totality of our existence is pretty significant and the govt targets one bit.
as a kid I remember we turned the AC on a handful of days a year. Now we have a far greater use by a much bigger population and I do believe the govt should rein in power use by way of building design and an education campaign. Because when a million people turn on the AC at 6pm when they get home it's a huge issue but now they're all going to plug in an EV too ...

attitudes need to change more than arguing about the numbers

I just thought it was interesting to look at the real numbers. You're dead right that we need to reduce consumption.

If people plug in an EV at 6pm it's a lot better for the planet than if they park a dinosaur burner at home at 6pm. And not only are house batteries getting very cheap now, but we're getting close to being able to use car batteries as a way to store energy which can be a game changer.

Select to expand quote

Ian K said..

Chris 249 said..

Ian K said..

peterowensbabs said..
1) what has this got to do with windsurfing?

Windsurfing wouldn't exist if we weren't in the middle of the boom in private transport. .

A fair bit of windsurfing exists in some cities and areas with people storing boards at waterside clubs and commercial facilities.

Yes it's possible to base your windsurfing from a waterside club, but would the widespread adoption that supported the industry that refined the gear to its present level have happened? Before you set up a machine to produce a 1.8kg carbon mast you need to be sure of selling a few. Without cars we might have one small company making a few Wallys to sit on shelves in yacht clubs.

80% of oil is burnt, 20% makes plastics. What would the price of plastic be without that economy of scale?

What price would oil be without it being in such demand for burning for transportation?

Sure, waterside clubs may only suit a few people - but you've ignored the fact that this whole idea that you can't windsurf with an EV is bizarre and completely incorrect. Why on earth do you make the implication?

Personally I think it's more important to save the environment than get light windsurfer masts.

Select to expand quote

Chris 249 said..

Ian K said..

Chris 249 said..

Ian K said..

peterowensbabs said..
1) what has this got to do with windsurfing?

Windsurfing wouldn't exist if we weren't in the middle of the boom in private transport. .

A fair bit of windsurfing exists in some cities and areas with people storing boards at waterside clubs and commercial facilities.

Yes it's possible to base your windsurfing from a waterside club, but would the widespread adoption that supported the industry that refined the gear to its present level have happened? Before you set up a machine to produce a 1.8kg carbon mast you need to be sure of selling a few. Without cars we might have one small company making a few Wallys to sit on shelves in yacht clubs.

80% of oil is burnt, 20% makes plastics. What would the price of plastic be without that economy of scale?

What price would oil be without it being in such demand for burning for transportation?

Sure, waterside clubs may only suit a few people - but you've ignored the fact that this whole idea that you can't windsurf with an EV is bizarre and completely incorrect. Why on earth do you make the implication?

Personally I think it's more important to save the environment than get light windsurfer masts.

My take on that is that if windsurfing wasn't already popular (well at one point anyway), we wouldn't have factories that would bother developing light weight masts. I know in my case windsurfing involved lots of long trips up and down the coast chasing where the wind might be. EV's really weren't around in numbers back 20 years ago.

Now its easy to say you can use them for windsurfing, but windsurfing probably wouldn't be a thing if you couldn't have travelled so far, cheaply to chase the wind.

Right now, I could walk to the ocean and go windsurfing or kiting. But it doesn't mean that the learning to do these sports didn't rely on cheap oil to drive all over the place or fly to places to learn or practice. If windsurfing were only restricted to people near good locations then the numbers would be much smaller, and I think Ian is asserting that they would still be old style boards because the market just wouldn't have justified the improvements we have seen over the years.

Sometimes I wonder what would have happened to humans if there were not easy and cheap sources of fossil fuels to drive development of technology. Sure, you can use batteries for a lot of things now, but without cheap oil a lot of this wouldn't have happened at all or taken a lot longer to evolve.

If the earth didn't have dinosaurs and plants turning into fuels, would we be all sitting around trying to start a fire with two sticks?

Select to expand quote

Chris 249 said..

Ian K said..

Chris 249 said..

Ian K said..

peterowensbabs said..
1) what has this got to do with windsurfing?

Windsurfing wouldn't exist if we weren't in the middle of the boom in private transport. .

A fair bit of windsurfing exists in some cities and areas with people storing boards at waterside clubs and commercial facilities.

Yes it's possible to base your windsurfing from a waterside club, but would the widespread adoption that supported the industry that refined the gear to its present level have happened? Before you set up a machine to produce a 1.8kg carbon mast you need to be sure of selling a few. Without cars we might have one small company making a few Wallys to sit on shelves in yacht clubs.

80% of oil is burnt, 20% makes plastics. What would the price of plastic be without that economy of scale?

What price would oil be without it being in such demand for burning for transportation?

Sure, waterside clubs may only suit a few people - but you've ignored the fact that this whole idea that you can't windsurf with an EV is bizarre and completely incorrect. Why on earth do you make the implication?

Personally I think it's more important to save the environment than get light windsurfer masts.

On a sort of tangent, I remember growing up when families would have 1 car, maybe 2 if they were well off. Then it seemed that everyone in the family would get a car, and then it became commonplace for people to have better cars and replace them more often.

I think this is the boom in personal transport. Could you imagine the challenges if you had to coordinate using 1 shared car and driving to a destination 100s of kms away just to play on a toy in the water? Windsurfing and kiting just wouldn't have happened.

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FormulaNova said..

Chris 249 said..

Ian K said..

Chris 249 said..

Ian K said..

peterowensbabs said..
1) what has this got to do with windsurfing?

Windsurfing wouldn't exist if we weren't in the middle of the boom in private transport. .

A fair bit of windsurfing exists in some cities and areas with people storing boards at waterside clubs and commercial facilities.

Yes it's possible to base your windsurfing from a waterside club, but would the widespread adoption that supported the industry that refined the gear to its present level have happened? Before you set up a machine to produce a 1.8kg carbon mast you need to be sure of selling a few. Without cars we might have one small company making a few Wallys to sit on shelves in yacht clubs.

80% of oil is burnt, 20% makes plastics. What would the price of plastic be without that economy of scale?

What price would oil be without it being in such demand for burning for transportation?

Sure, waterside clubs may only suit a few people - but you've ignored the fact that this whole idea that you can't windsurf with an EV is bizarre and completely incorrect. Why on earth do you make the implication?

Personally I think it's more important to save the environment than get light windsurfer masts.

My take on that is that if windsurfing wasn't already popular (well at one point anyway), we wouldn't have factories that would bother developing light weight masts. I know in my case windsurfing involved lots of long trips up and down the coast chasing where the wind might be. EV's really weren't around in numbers back 20 years ago.

Now its easy to say you can use them for windsurfing, but windsurfing probably wouldn't be a thing if you couldn't have travelled so far, cheaply to chase the wind.

Right now, I could walk to the ocean and go windsurfing or kiting. But it doesn't mean that the learning to do these sports didn't rely on cheap oil to drive all over the place or fly to places to learn or practice. If windsurfing were only restricted to people near good locations then the numbers would be much smaller, and I think Ian is asserting that they would still be old style boards because the market just wouldn't have justified the improvements we have seen over the years.

Sometimes I wonder what would have happened to humans if there were not easy and cheap sources of fossil fuels to drive development of technology. Sure, you can use batteries for a lot of things now, but without cheap oil a lot of this wouldn't have happened at all or taken a lot longer to evolve.

If the earth didn't have dinosaurs and plants turning into fuels, would we be all sitting around trying to start a fire with two sticks?

Fossil fuels were vital in the development of the modern world. yep. But these days, you do not need to burn fossil fuels to go windsurfing.

When windsurfing was at its biggest, most people didn't do big trips chasing wind.

Incidentally, back when windsurfing was starting to boom, the guy who was in charge of building and running NSW's coal-fired electrical system was my grandfather. His hobby was running the Electric Vehicle Association and working on his 'Minilectric S-1", because as the guy who knew our biggest state's fossil fuel consumption better than almost anyone he knew it could not go on like it used to.

Select to expand quote

FormulaNova said..


On a sort of tangent, I remember growing up when families would have 1 car, maybe 2 if they were well off. Then it seemed that everyone in the family would get a car, and then it became commonplace for people to have better cars and replace them more often.

I think this is the boom in personal transport. Could you imagine the challenges if you had to coordinate using 1 shared car and driving to a destination 100s of kms away just to play on a toy in the water? Windsurfing and kiting just wouldn't have happened.

But the boom in dinghy sailing happened well before families had two cars, and it was much bigger than windsurfing has been for years. My wife and I had only one car for years when we were living in the inner city and windsurfing and cat sailing regularly. The boom in surfing happened when there were about 25 cars per 100 people, and people just took their Mals to the beach on bikes or got a life with a mate.

In the peak year of windsurfing, 1985, there were about 42 cars for every 100 Australians. Now it's about 62 and windsurfing's popularity has crashed.

You don't need to go 100s of ks to go windsurfing. I sail boats at Port Stephens, which is a great windsurfing spot and very rarely are there more than about three windsurfers out even on a good day. That's at the sort of spot the millions of people living in and around Sydney would head to if they "needed" to drive 100s of ks to windsurf. They don't need to so they don't do it.

Select to expand quote

Chris 249 said..

FormulaNova said..

Chris 249 said..

Ian K said..

Chris 249 said..

Ian K said..

peterowensbabs said..
1) what has this got to do with windsurfing?

Windsurfing wouldn't exist if we weren't in the middle of the boom in private transport. .

A fair bit of windsurfing exists in some cities and areas with people storing boards at waterside clubs and commercial facilities.

Yes it's possible to base your windsurfing from a waterside club, but would the widespread adoption that supported the industry that refined the gear to its present level have happened? Before you set up a machine to produce a 1.8kg carbon mast you need to be sure of selling a few. Without cars we might have one small company making a few Wallys to sit on shelves in yacht clubs.

80% of oil is burnt, 20% makes plastics. What would the price of plastic be without that economy of scale?

What price would oil be without it being in such demand for burning for transportation?

Sure, waterside clubs may only suit a few people - but you've ignored the fact that this whole idea that you can't windsurf with an EV is bizarre and completely incorrect. Why on earth do you make the implication?

Personally I think it's more important to save the environment than get light windsurfer masts.

My take on that is that if windsurfing wasn't already popular (well at one point anyway), we wouldn't have factories that would bother developing light weight masts. I know in my case windsurfing involved lots of long trips up and down the coast chasing where the wind might be. EV's really weren't around in numbers back 20 years ago.

Now its easy to say you can use them for windsurfing, but windsurfing probably wouldn't be a thing if you couldn't have travelled so far, cheaply to chase the wind.

Right now, I could walk to the ocean and go windsurfing or kiting. But it doesn't mean that the learning to do these sports didn't rely on cheap oil to drive all over the place or fly to places to learn or practice. If windsurfing were only restricted to people near good locations then the numbers would be much smaller, and I think Ian is asserting that they would still be old style boards because the market just wouldn't have justified the improvements we have seen over the years.

Sometimes I wonder what would have happened to humans if there were not easy and cheap sources of fossil fuels to drive development of technology. Sure, you can use batteries for a lot of things now, but without cheap oil a lot of this wouldn't have happened at all or taken a lot longer to evolve.

If the earth didn't have dinosaurs and plants turning into fuels, would we be all sitting around trying to start a fire with two sticks?

Fossil fuels were vital in the development of the modern world. yep. But these days, you do not need to burn fossil fuels to go windsurfing.

When windsurfing was at its biggest, most people didn't do big trips chasing wind.

Incidentally, back when windsurfing was starting to boom, the guy who was in charge of building and running NSW's coal-fired electrical system was my grandfather. His hobby was running the Electric Vehicle Association and working on his 'Minilectric S-1", because as the guy who knew our biggest state's fossil fuel consumption better than almost anyone he knew it could not go on like it used to.

Yeah, I agree. When I first saw windsurfing it was with one-design type boards. My high school ran it as a sport for a time on the local lake. Even then, people would have to drive with the board strapped to the roof of their car or use one of the hire boards at the lake.

But then it changed and people wanted stronger wind and for that you had a much better chance of sailing when you drove somewhere with better wind. That's when I started and it was always a decent trip to chase the wind, partly to find more reliable and safer locations. I could have sailed in the open ocean, but driving a few hours south I could sail in a protected waterway where any breakage meant I could still swim to shore.

With EVs the only challenge I see is making it so that people can recharge in the peak solar times. These times for a lot of people is where the car is not at home, so the charging infrastructure needs to catch up.

How well is battery recycling working out for EVs? I myself wonder how many lithium batteries end up just in landfill instead of being recycled correctly.

Select to expand quote

Chris 249 said..

You don't need to go 100s of ks to go windsurfing. I sail boats at Port Stephens, which is a great windsurfing spot and very rarely are there more than about three windsurfers out even on a good day. That's at the sort of spot the millions of people living in and around Sydney would head to if they "needed" to drive 100s of ks to windsurf. They don't need to so they don't do it.

Funny, that's exactly the spot where I used to drive to when starting out. Hawks Nest. There were a few people doing the same. That or down the coast a similar distance.

I sailed/did a lesson at Balmoral once. It was enough to make me realise that there are better locations.

Near the airport in a noreaster is great, but has its own challenges. Closer to me I could sail at Kurnell in a noreaster or a westerly. All of these locations I wouldn't have been comfortable sailing in if I hadn't spent hundreds of kilograms in carbon getting to spots where I could learn.

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Chris 249 said..

But the boom in dinghy sailing happened well before families had two cars, and it was much bigger than windsurfing has been for years. My wife and I had only one car for years when we were living in the inner city and windsurfing and cat sailing regularly. The boom in surfing happened when there were about 25 cars per 100 people, and people just took their Mals to the beach on bikes or got a life with a mate.

In the peak year of windsurfing, 1985, there were about 42 cars for every 100 Australians. Now it's about 62 and windsurfing's popularity has crashed.

I can't imagine a situation where I could have convinced my parents to drive me to a location with a dinghy or windsurfing setup. It would never have happened. I am envious of people that had parents that would. Without my own car, none of that could have happened.

I see little kids out on dinghies on the Perth river and wonder if they know how lucky they are that they can get to a location like that and have their parents take them. Its a pretty privileged situation for some.

Surfing on the other hand was easy. There were plenty of people in my school that would catch the bus or a train and bus to the beach and surf before school. Sometimes with a bike and trailer as well.

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FormulaNova said..

if I hadn't spent hundreds of kilograms in carbon getting to spots where I could learn.

Hundreds! Is that all. 38 litres of fuel produce 100 kg of CO2.

I've put up several tonnes. (Which will stay up there as a disturbance to the CO2 equilibrium for hundreds maybe thousands of years.)

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FormulaNova said..

How well is battery recycling working out for EVs? I myself wonder how many lithium batteries end up just in landfill instead of being recycled correctly.

Apart from the early crap leaf batteries, modern batteries probably won't be recycled for another 15-20 years, so it's a bit early to tell.
And they can still be used as stationery batteries after that.

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Gestalt said..
Where does he charge. That's an 800km round trip. It's simply not possible for me to do that at the spots I go without sitting at a charge point for an hour+ either before or after the beach.

toyota were working on a hydrogen / electric system that would solve that issue.

not keen to buy a nazi car anyways.. so limited to mg or byd

It's a tesla, they have plenty of very fast chargers around, by the time he's had a toilet break and a coffee half way there's more than enough to get to Albany.
Here's the Albany chargers, more than we have in Mandurah.


A couple of them very close to where we sail. But Flex would probably go into town for a meal, and use one of the town chargers.

You have to get into a different mind set driving an EV. Most of time it's much more convenient to charge at home, instead of having to go to a petrol station, wait in ques to get a pump and then pay for the fuel.
On long trips you top up while having a break.
This will fall down if you have 2 drivers and are in a hurry to cover distance.
But a single driver should have regular breaks to avoid fatigue.

That's what we did on our Margaret River trip, topped up in Margret while having a coffee, gave us plenty of charge to get back home.

Select to expand quote

Ian K said..

FormulaNova said..

if I hadn't spent hundreds of kilograms in carbon getting to spots where I could learn.

Hundreds! Is that all. 38 litres of fuel produce 100 kg of CO2.

I've put up several tonnes. (Which will stay up there as a disturbance to the CO2 equilibrium for hundreds maybe thousands of years.)

Come on Ian, I didn't say 1 or 2 hundred. I said hundreds. A thousand hundreds is still 'hundreds'

I didn't say CO2 either did I? I was just counting the carbon part

The oxygen part would add another 3 times the weight wouldn't it?

If I were tracking my CO2 production for my hobbies I wouldn't be doing anything.

Select to expand quote

decrepit said..

FormulaNova said..

How well is battery recycling working out for EVs? I myself wonder how many lithium batteries end up just in landfill instead of being recycled correctly.

Apart from the early crap leaf batteries, modern batteries probably won't be recycled for another 15-20 years, so it's a bit early to tell.
And they can still be used as stationery batteries after that.

I hope that they do get recycled properly and that it is costed in. Its no use pushing EVs as better and not handling all of the costs. I do remember reading about Leaf batteries needing to be replaced relatively early, so its good that you point out that they are no longer as bad.

But, I have heaps of lithium ion batteries around from laptops and other things and I wonder if many from other people ever make it to recycling. I doubt it, but then again other people may be more concientious than I.

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Mark _australia said..
attitudes need to change more than arguing about the numbers

You don't have to argue about the numbers net zero is what it will take. The last time CO2 got high was due to prolonged periods of "higher than average volcanism". At the moment we're putting in 60 times as much CO2 as current volcanic activity. All cutting back does is prolong the inevitable. We're 427.49 ppm atm. On the 18th July last year it was 424.83ppm. (This time next year will be a guess, Donald is shutting down the observatory). We get sleepy at 850ppm, that's 121 years down the track. If we halve our CO2 emission that's 242 years down the track.

Select to expand quote

With EVs the only challenge I see is making it so that people can recharge in the peak solar times. These times for a lot of people is where the car is not at home, so the charging infrastructure needs to catch up.

How well is battery recycling working out for EVs? I myself wonder how many lithium batteries end up just in landfill instead of being recycled correctly.

I don't know how many EV batteries are being recycled but in our experience, which is apparently echoed by many, is that battery life is better than anticipated. Our 10 year old Leaf, which came after the problematic early batteries, still had probably 90+% of full battey power - it's hard to say for sure how much over 90% because we live in the country so have more high speed cruising than the city-based estimates allow for. While there was apparently some degradation, on the other hand that was offset by incredibly low running costs - no servicing, basically no brake wear, no great tyre problems, very little to go wrong.

Leaf batteries have Chademo (sp) plugs so are apparently easier to use as house batteries.

Our solar guy seems to have no doubt that car batteries will be able to be used with houses in the near future; we're keeping an eye on the progress of the early Australian units. The cars themselves may well last much longer than ICEs. I'm no expert but it's hard to see hundred of kg of useful metals going into land fill very often - even a catalytic converter is worth properly recycling and that's a tiny amount of useful metals.

Select to expand quote

decrepit said..

Gestalt said..
Where does he charge. That's an 800km round trip. It's simply not possible for me to do that at the spots I go without sitting at a charge point for an hour+ either before or after the beach.

toyota were working on a hydrogen / electric system that would solve that issue.

not keen to buy a nazi car anyways.. so limited to mg or byd

It's a tesla, they have plenty of very fast chargers around, by the time he's had a toilet break and a coffee half way there's more than enough to get to Albany.
Here's the Albany chargers, more than we have in Mandurah.


A couple of them very close to where we sail. But Flex would probably go into town for a meal, and use one of the town chargers.

You have to get into a different mind set driving an EV. Most of time it's much more convenient to charge at home, instead of having to go to a petrol station, wait in ques to get a pump and then pay for the fuel.
On long trips you top up while having a break.
This will fall down if you have 2 drivers and are in a hurry to cover distance.
But a single driver should have regular breaks to avoid fatigue.

That's what we did on our Margaret River trip, topped up in Margret while having a coffee, gave us plenty of charge to get back home.

You're putting up a good argument decrepit

The whole purpose of Tesla power walls (battery based renewable storage) is to reuse batteries no longer fit for EV service. Since weight is not an issue, a used battery at 80% of original capacity still has plenty of value and use.

My problem with EV's is the secondhand market, they are still bloody expensive for something a bit unknown. Say you buy a 10yr old EV, many people currently buy fuel burners of this age. No warranty left on the battery so your on your own if things go bad.
Say 4 years down the road a cell ****s itself, a mate had it happen to his older hybrid, the car is pretty much scrap if it's a full EV. The repairs would far outweigh the value of the car. So this means secondhand market for EV's will always be challenging, a great option for if leasing from new, not so good secondhand.

This E.V. thing is great .
I can`t wait for the day to see the entire city of Perth under one big shade cloth made of solar panels .
They might have to move that Baobab tree outside though which is the only problem that I can see .

Biggest problem I can see with EV's, as with all other things lithium-powered, is to ensure that it is used safely!
I'm not buying into the scaremongering pushed by some people, but there are a significant number of phones, scooters and other devices going up in smoke. even the odd car. When any one of these things burns down a house, it surely negates any carbon savings it ever made! All need to be charged safely in a place where that can't happen.

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Sandee said..
Biggest problem I can see with EV's, as with all other things lithium-powered, is to ensure that it is used safely!
I'm not buying into the scaremongering pushed by some people, but there are a significant number of phones, scooters and other devices going up in smoke. even the odd car. When any one of these things burns down a house, it surely negates any carbon savings it ever made! All need to be charged safely in a place where that can't happen.

Yes, there's a huge number of abused appliances catching fire with terrible consequences.

But modern EVs are not amongst them.
They have very sophisticated battery protection systems.
ICE vehicles are more likely to catch fire.

There are pics of burnt EVs but if you look closely, the fire didn't start with the battery, the battery may not even be badly damaged.

Here's what I'm on about, a very interesting article about what could be possible, if the parties concerned can get it right.

Select to expand quote

theconversation.com/how-evs-and-electric-water-heaters-are-turning-cities-into-giant-batteries-261369

Its a bit of a u-turn. In NSW they were going to ban electric hot water heaters from 2010 or so.

I guess now coupled with rooftop solar they actually make a lot of sense.

Instantaneous electric aren't very efficient and use a lot of short surge power. But storage heat pumps can be used off peak, or as you say from solar.