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Sandee said..

Anyhow, I think OP was just seeking advice on board leashes, not a critique on their skills and choices?
If there's gear available that gives someone confidence to push the envelope a bit further than they otherwise would, I don't think that anyone should discourage the use of that gear.

We should all listen to critique - even me, with my flippant rant on this thread.

Sue is a good sailor, that made a bad choice - as she noted, post-covid, long time between stints, big sail for the wind gusts.

If-as-a-society shun every criticism due to hurt-feelings, then we wont ever learn from our mistakes.

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mathew said..

Sandee said..

Anyhow, I think OP was just seeking advice on board leashes, not a critique on their skills and choices?
If there's gear available that gives someone confidence to push the envelope a bit further than they otherwise would, I don't think that anyone should discourage the use of that gear.

We should all listen to critique - even me, with my flippant rant on this thread.

Sue is a good sailor, that made a bad choice - as she noted, post-covid, long time between stints, big sail for the wind gusts.

If-as-a-society shun every criticism due to hurt-feelings, then we wont ever learn from our mistakes.

Well, you're clearly not listening too well to anything I said:
Firstly, re: scuba diving scenario. just think about how easily a panicky diver can wrestle a rescuer who's pulling them backwards by their tank? My arms certainly couldn't reach around there!
And as for board-leash entanglement: leash should attach to harness where you can easily reach and release it if needed. And extension is just long enough to reach from reel when in normal sailing stance to attachment point at mast base, where you can easily dance around it in a tack, and no slack hanging around to get tangled in.
Getting dragged by a leash at your waist is very different than a leg-rope. I can't imagine a situation where one hand can't reach the quick release.
As stated, the breakable connection allows separation in catapults of greater than leash length. Your board and rig has way too much momentum to change direction and chase you down just because of a little tug from the leash as it breaks free.

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Sandee said..

mathew said..

Sandee said..

Anyhow, I think OP was just seeking advice on board leashes, not a critique on their skills and choices?
If there's gear available that gives someone confidence to push the envelope a bit further than they otherwise would, I don't think that anyone should discourage the use of that gear.

We should all listen to critique - even me, with my flippant rant on this thread.

Sue is a good sailor, that made a bad choice - as she noted, post-covid, long time between stints, big sail for the wind gusts.

If-as-a-society shun every criticism due to hurt-feelings, then we wont ever learn from our mistakes.

Well, you're clearly not listening too well to anything I said:
Firstly, re: scuba diving scenario. just think about how easily a panicky diver can wrestle a rescuer who's pulling them backwards by their tank? My arms certainly couldn't reach around there!

I clearly understood what you wrote because I "your buddy wasn't cognizant" - I didn't say that you weren't cognizant, because your description clearly indicates that you were. That should signal to your buddy that they need some further immersion-training so that they are better able be calm in those situations.

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As stated, the breakable connection allows separation in catapults of greater than leash length. Your board and rig has way too much momentum to change direction and chase you down just because of a little tug from the leash as it breaks free.

Think back to the original question - the point of a leash was to keep you and your gear together, when in the scenario that it moves away from you faster than you can catch up to it easily. If your leash breaks under a little tug, then the very moment which required the leash (such as it sailing away from you, or being sucked by current, or washed away by a wave) it wont have been useful.

Popcorn

Using a leach is just a dumb solution to a non problem. This is born out by the evidence that in 40+ years of windsurfer I know of no-one who has used one. There have been a lot of smart people windsurfer during this period.

Wing foilers use leaches because their boards are not connected to their wings so both board and wing can blow away when disconnected from the rider.

In windsurfing the sail is connected to the board and always eventually sinks and provides an anchor allowing the rider to reconnect with their gear.

Sue, I understand why you are thinking about a leash. I have been separate from my board twice. First time was after a jump with an involuntary nose landing, where the mast foot released. By the time I realized that what had happened, the board was so far away that I had no chance of catching it. I ended up swimming to shore with the rig, which took about 45 minutes in onshore swell. Fortunately, this was on Maui, with warm water and other sailors around who checked on me, but could not get to the board in time. When later walking along the shore to look for the board, it seems everyone knew where it would end up - on the other side of the harbor. Apparently, board separations are somewhat common on Maui.

The second time was on a longboard, when the sail landed on top of the board after a crash in 20 knots. I immediately realized what was happened, but still had no chance of catching the board. Part of the problem was heavy winter gear - a fat wetsuit, boots, gloves, and a life jacket slow you down a lot. Similar to you, I was also recovering from a longer bout with a virus, and not 100% fit. The sail eventually dropped into the water, but the wind and chop still carried it faster than I could swim. Despite being just half a mile from shore and side-on wind, I ended up with a 40 minute swim in 10 degree C water before being rescued - first by my wife (who almost had a heard attack when my board arrived on the beach without me, and had to re-rig to go look for me), and then by the harbormaster and local fire fighters.
I had seen someone else have the same problem with the sail on the board drifting away before. Thanks to shorter boards, this usually does not happen, but a cammed sail floating on the water could be similar.

With respect to using a leash while windsurfing, I don't think it would be a major problem if you never tack. After all, wingers use board leashes all the time. However, you definitely will get yourself and your gear tangled in the leash from time to time, and especially at the beginning. Also, you mention chop hops and bailing out as a reason to consider a leash, and that the one time where you absolutely do not want to be leashed to your board. If you and your board separate in the air and are connected by a leash, there is a very good chance that the leash will pull the board towards you. The board or fin may hit you in the air, or fall on you in the water. In winging, none of the wingers who go for high jumps and tricks in the air use a leash for this very reason.

If you would decide to forget about chop hops and use a leash, always make sure that you have your arms in front of your head when re-surfacing after a crash. There's a good chance that the elastic leash will pull the board towards you, and that it will hit you right in the face as your head emerges. Using a coiled leash attached to the harness seems to make this less likely (compared to a straight leash attached to the leg), but it still happens.

I had a dumb kook moment with a leash when I had my first board after starting windsurfing again (after knowing almost nothing anyway).

Went to an unfamiliar spot with my 11'8 Exocet Link because of the wind direction, and tried to get out of the shorebreak. I didn't understand how hard dead onshore was. I kept getting destroyed with the sail and washed over and over.
I had enough of it and pulled the mast base off, derigged the sail, and connected the sup paddleboarding leash to the big board and my calf, and tried paddling out. I got through the initial bit but not knowing how to surf, I ate it. A couple of times that coiled up leash got almost full tension on it as the board caught the wave and I was behind it. All 11'8 came flying at me, fin first, where I was panicked covering my face to keep the sharp tail and fin from hitting me. Luckily the stock fin was very blunt.

I called it a day and figured I should learn where other windsurfers and more experienced people were around next time.
I'm also realizing this was 2020 when a bunch of things had shut down and I had ordered my full kit from online and had it delivered, had never stepped foot in the local shop, and had no idea where the good local spots were. Lots of bad self taught habits to unlearn.

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boardsurfr said..
Sue, I understand why you are thinking about a leash. I have been separate from my board twice. First time was after a jump with an involuntary nose landing, where the mast foot released. By the time I realized that what had happened, the board was so far away that I had no chance of catching it. I ended up swimming to shore with the rig, which took about 45 minutes in onshore swell. Fortunately, this was on Maui, with warm water and other sailors around who checked on me, but could not get to the board in time. When later walking along the shore to look for the board, it seems everyone knew where it would end up - on the other side of the harbor. Apparently, board separations are somewhat common on Maui.

The second time was on a longboard, when the sail landed on top of the board after a crash in 20 knots. I immediately realized what was happened, but still had no chance of catching the board. Part of the problem was heavy winter gear - a fat wetsuit, boots, gloves, and a life jacket slow you down a lot. Similar to you, I was also recovering from a longer bout with a virus, and not 100% fit. The sail eventually dropped into the water, but the wind and chop still carried it faster than I could swim. Despite being just half a mile from shore and side-on wind, I ended up with a 40 minute swim in 10 degree C water before being rescued - first by my wife (who almost had a heard attack when my board arrived on the beach without me, and had to re-rig to go look for me), and then by the harbormaster and local fire fighters.
I had seen someone else have the same problem with the sail on the board drifting away before. Thanks to shorter boards, this usually does not happen, but a cammed sail floating on the water could be similar.

With respect to using a leash while windsurfing, I don't think it would be a major problem if you never tack. After all, wingers use board leashes all the time. However, you definitely will get yourself and your gear tangled in the leash from time to time, and especially at the beginning. Also, you mention chop hops and bailing out as a reason to consider a leash, and that the one time where you absolutely do not want to be leashed to your board. If you and your board separate in the air and are connected by a leash, there is a very good chance that the leash will pull the board towards you. The board or fin may hit you in the air, or fall on you in the water. In winging, none of the wingers who go for high jumps and tricks in the air use a leash for this very reason.

If you would decide to forget about chop hops and use a leash, always make sure that you have your arms in front of your head when re-surfacing after a crash. There's a good chance that the elastic leash will pull the board towards you, and that it will hit you right in the face as your head emerges. Using a coiled leash attached to the harness seems to make this less likely (compared to a straight leash attached to the leg), but it still happens.

It's made for an interesting discussion.
I only wondered from a chop hop perspective. It's a pity that most of the places I'd be considering trying to jump are cross shore or side offshore.
If they were onshore I wouldn't have to worry.
I'll probably forget about jumps. I think of them when I'm overpowered and you are trying to stay on the water but realise trying them then is asking for trouble.
Feedback has been interesting.
Yes I find swimming with an impact vest, harness , camelback, helmet, gloves and booties almost impossible..

Definitely interesting discussion

If your going to wear a leash I think Sandee version with retractable leash and quick release fittings on both your harness and back footstrap.

I've had swims and the longest was wavesailing and seeing my sail upright is going down the line without me on a long wave that can be "sharky"

I've started winging (lots of swimming) and initially getting tangled but you figure how to untangle.

Yes swimming in all your gear is hard. I remember starting wavesailing and I would go to the pool and swim laps. Start off slow and build up, after a while you get swim fitness then do fast laps. Being able to get to your gear fast is important.
Note I was never a great swimmer but above average sailor then windsurfer

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sboardcrazy said..
Yes I find swimming with an impact vest, harness , camelback, helmet, gloves and booties almost impossible..

I've always thought you were unnecessarily burdened with your gear while sailing. I get the harness, impact vest, helmet gloves and booties but have you thought about ditching the camelback. Surely you can hydrate sufficiently before your session. I only use a harness, helmet and booties for foiling and bump & jump, and only add the impact vest on the rare occasions when windsurfing with slalom gear. Consider learning how to windfoil, it's definitely easier on the body than the big sails and boards you need for windsurfing in the same wind conditions. eg I use a 5m wave sail windfoiling in 12kts. Windfoiling has doubled my time on water, keeps me sailing fit, even through winter.

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John340 said..

sboardcrazy said..
Yes I find swimming with an impact vest, harness , camelback, helmet, gloves and booties almost impossible..

I've always thought you were unnecessarily burdened with your gear while sailing. I get the harness, impact vest, helmet gloves and booties but have you thought about ditching the camelback. Surely you can hydrate sufficiently before your session. I only use a harness, helmet and booties for foiling and bump & jump, and only add the impact vest on the rare occasions when windsurfing with slalom gear. Consider learning how to windfoil, it's definitely easier on the body than the big sails and boards you need for windsurfing in the same wind conditions. eg I use a 5m wave sail windfoiling in 12kts. Windfoiling has doubled my time on water, keeps me sailing fit, even through winter.

I usually don't put a lot of water in it on Lake Macquarie. When sailing in shallow water I fill it. I really need it!
I think it's because I sail with my mouth open ( and sometimes sing ).
Even with that I usually feel dehydrated and drink litres of water the next day.
I drink a lot of water generally.
The extra weight of the camelback is handy when the wind is ballistic..
I'd like to be good at windfoiling. When I was trying to get back into it after the broken wrist it was hard using 7.5m -7m sails. Windfoiling would have been much easier.
I don't like the learning curve. At my age I'm not happy with the idea of being launched over the front at all times. I might try winging some time in the future.
Atm I'm trying to get as good as I can in the chop before I'm too old to cope,. Changing gybing habits is hard though..

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John340 said.. Consider learning how to windfoil, it's definitely easier on the body than the big sails and boards you need for windsurfing in the same wind conditions. eg I use a 5m wave sail windfoiling in 12kts. Windfoiling has doubled my time on water, keeps me sailing fit, even through winter.

Yes, it's like a cheat code in a game. With newer gear, it's not total mayhem to learn. My 75 yr old buddy learned a couple of years back when he got tired of watching me have fun on light days and he couldn't get going on an 8.5. Even on a very windy day (30+) I'm still on a 125 l. board so it makes all sorts of things easier.

The best part is that big foil under the board is a bit like a sea anchor - board is less likely to surf merrily away. I think that's what the point of this thread was, right?

Just to pivot this chat into another unexpected direction, instead of a leash to the sailor, has anyone considered a deployable drogue or something similar to act on your board if it parts company. I could imagine stuffing a small drogue into your downhaul pocket and tied to front footstrap. If your uni breaks the drogue would pull out. I suppose you could have something stuffed in your own pocket too if you wanted. Yeah, I get all the complications is adds, but does it have a place in big open water travels?

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Paducah said..

The best part is that big foil under the board is a bit like a sea anchor - board is less likely to surf merrily away. I think that's what the point of this thread was, right?

I'm noticing the opposite. Longer swims to get back to the board after frequent crashes.
I think one reason is that the board is wider, so the rig doesn't have enough leverage to tip it and act as a sea anchor. The sail seems to just lie flat on the water, so the board gets blown more easily.
The other reason is that when I breach, the board is up in the air as if I'd done a big chop hop, so it flies further while I'm ejecting myself well away from the foil

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Mr Milk said..

Paducah said..

The best part is that big foil under the board is a bit like a sea anchor - board is less likely to surf merrily away. I think that's what the point of this thread was, right?

I'm noticing the opposite. Longer swims to get back to the board after frequent crashes.
I think one reason is that the board is wider, so the rig doesn't have enough leverage to tip it and act as a sea anchor. The sail seems to just lie flat on the water, so the board gets blown more easily.
The other reason is that when I breach, the board is up in the air as if I'd done a big chop hop, so it flies further while I'm ejecting myself well away from the foil

Depends on the gear you use. My board is 68cm wide and my largest sail is 5.9. Swimming after my gear is easier than my old slalom gear. I suspect foil race gear might be a different story with 90cm wide boards and cammed 9m sails

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Mr Milk said..

Paducah said..

The best part is that big foil under the board is a bit like a sea anchor - board is less likely to surf merrily away. I think that's what the point of this thread was, right?

I'm noticing the opposite. Longer swims to get back to the board after frequent crashes.
I think one reason is that the board is wider, so the rig doesn't have enough leverage to tip it and act as a sea anchor. The sail seems to just lie flat on the water, so the board gets blown more easily.
The other reason is that when I breach, the board is up in the air as if I'd done a big chop hop, so it flies further while I'm ejecting myself well away from the foil

Are you holding on to the boom? Do not get in the habit of ejecting yourself. At that point, you have zero control over the foil and whether you two meet. Plus the swim.

If you are having continuous issues, head over the foiling section and let's help you get it sorted. There are inevitable breaches as you begin but it shouldn't be a continuous thing. There are little things you can do that reduce the occurrence significantly.

Sue, if you carried fewer GPSs, cameras and camelbacks etc, you might have room in your backpack for a set of flippers to easily chase down your gear

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tbwonder said..
Sue, if you carried fewer GPSs, cameras and camelbacks etc, you might have room in your backpack for a set of flippers to easily chase down your gear

Ratbag.