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John340 said..

Manuel7 said..
Surprising stories on here!

[...]

It normally only happens with large cammed sails where the sail floats on top of the water. Wave sails sink and anchor the board.

True. Especially since slalom is usually sailed overpowered. The spot, current, wind line, etc surely play a role.

I did lose sight of my gear a few times. We can't rise up like kiters and sometimes swim in the wrong direction!

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Manuel7 said..
Don't remember seeing guys in pozo lose their gear?

Not for the Pros perhaps, and not on open water, but it sure happens in break and then you end up in the Bunker for a walk of shame.
Don't ask me how I know that....

The longest swim I witnessed was with wave gear. board and rig kept wave riding without the sailor, then got caught in the rip in side the reef and headed north. The sailor had watched it surf in a SE direction, so swam that way, when he got inside the reef, he realised he'd swum in the wrong direction, and the gear was heading North, what he should have done was swim to shore and walked/run North to get ahead of the gear, then swim out in front of it, so it came to him. But he just kept swimming after it, and eventually caught it. But he must have been real fit and a good swimmer in a harness. I think he must have swum 700m or more.

In waves it's not just the wind that takes your board away, it's also rips, and you need to be aware of that, if you loose sight of your gear.

Nothing like almost getting back to your kit for the wind to get hold of it and blow it another 10meters away. First time it's annoying but after 3 or 4 times in a row it's exhausting

I think a guy called Magicride used to use one

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Sparky said..
I think a guy called Magicride used to use one

Yeah , but from memory, he also carried a knife when sailing.

Some kiters carry swim fins for self rescue that might work

Go for the jumps, you only live once

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AusMoz said..
Comes down to fitness both mental and physical. Challenging conditions and situations you got to prepare for always. If it goes bad - think positive

It's getting harder the older I get. The mind wants to do what I used to do in my 20s and 30s.. the body says bugger off..

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Ben1973 said..
Nothing like almost getting back to your kit for the wind to get hold of it and blow it another 10meters away. First time it's annoying but after 3 or 4 times in a row it's exhausting

Pardon the language.
6.15mins odd here. I'm in shallow water but I've just grabbed for the gear and missed. This is after about 30mins trying to get in. I was so run down after this I got a virus that lasted 2 months..
The go pro makes the waves look 6inches but the wind swells were really big by the end. I was disappearing behind them.

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sboardcrazy said..

Ben1973 said..
Nothing like almost getting back to your kit for the wind to get hold of it and blow it another 10meters away. First time it's annoying but after 3 or 4 times in a row it's exhausting

Pardon the language.
6.15mins odd here. I'm in shallow water but I've just grabbed for the gear and missed. This is after about 30mins trying to get in. I was so run down after this I got a virus that lasted 2 months..
The go pro makes the waves look 6inches but the wind swells were really big by the end. I was disappearing behind them.

It's good to know Im not the only one who has a love hate relationship with my gear on the water when I'm yelling at it!

I used to teach sailing and windsurfing (long time ago!) one of the things we used to drill into the kids is "knowledge of your limitations." A swim after your gear lasting 10-15 mins is pretty exhausting at the best of times even for well fit swimmers but if you attempt it at the end of a 1 or 2 hour blasting session I don't care how young or old you are its going to put you on the edge of collapse. So one bit of gear failure, one small injury, one bad wind shift, a temperature drop etc etc. Stay safe out there people!

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Ben1973 said..
A leash sound like a terrible idea, far to much weight and momentum not to mention the tangles that could happen
plus there are times when you really want to get away from your kit.

So many people with opinions on leashes, but no experience!
I do agree that standard surfboard-style leashes could be disastrous, BUT:
Retractable leash avoids potential for tangles, and the nearly 3metres length, in addition to the extension (which doesn't retract & can be tailored to just the right length so it isn't under tension while riding) means you seldom exceed the length of leash & break free.
Break-free link is just a loop of nylon string which can easily carry the weight of the board but snaps under shock loading, and I have a couple of spare loops in place I can use if I break one. I no longer windsurf (due to kiting), but if I did I think the leash would be attached in mast track as it wouldn't be in the way there, and keeps it away from fins (which easily cut through leashes in surf).
In case you really want to get away from your kit, the reel should be attached to your harness in a location where the quick release is easily accessible. (I added a grenade pin release for mine but current model have a buckle which may work just as well.)
I guess it all comes down to personal choices, depending on your sailing style and locations, whether a retractable leash is a worthwhile thing for you.

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Sandee said..

Ben1973 said..
A leash sound like a terrible idea, far to much weight and momentum not to mention the tangles that could happen
plus there are times when you really want to get away from your kit.

So many people with opinions on leashes, but no experience!
I do agree that standard surfboard-style leashes could be disastrous, BUT:
Retractable leash avoids potential for tangles, and the nearly 3metres length, in addition to the extension (which doesn't retract & can be tailored to just the right length so it isn't under tension while riding) means you seldom exceed the length of leash & break free.
Break-free link is just a loop of nylon string which can easily carry the weight of the board but snaps under shock loading, and I have a couple of spare loops in place I can use if I break one. I no longer windsurf (due to kiting), but if I did I think the leash would be attached in mast track as it wouldn't be in the way there, and keeps it away from fins (which easily cut through leashes in surf).
In case you really want to get away from your kit, the reel should be attached to your harness in a location where the quick release is easily accessible. (I added a grenade pin release for mine but current model have a buckle which may work just as well.)
I guess it all comes down to personal choices, depending on your sailing style and locations, whether a retractable leash is a worthwhile thing for you.

Worth a Google I think.

A leash connecting my body to a 90 litre board and 7m sail, no thanks. Sounds like some special kind of crazy ha ha. If you were having so much trouble getting restarted imagine the problems a leash would introduce. I think you would have disconnected it pretty quick so no point having it.

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clarerose said..
A leash connecting my body to a 90 litre board and 7m sail, no thanks. Sounds like some special kind of crazy ha ha. If you were having so much trouble getting restarted imagine the problems a leash would introduce. I think you would have disconnected it pretty quick so no point having it.

100 % correct!!!

Leashes can make big problems BIGGER!

When I first started windsurfing - Sailing a Cobra Race and a 7 m JV sail I used a surfboard leash and some rope not knowing much about sailing Needless to say the leash broke eventually, I got caught up and tangled etc and It was just another piece of rope/ line I didn't need. After a few hefty crashes recently - having a leash would have made the situation worse.

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sboardcrazy said..

AusMoz said..
Comes down to fitness both mental and physical. Challenging conditions and situations you got to prepare for always. If it goes bad - think positive

It's getting harder the older I get. The mind wants to do what I used to do in my 20s and 30s.. the body says bugger off..

I fully get what your saying! I'm 50 soon - I think I'm 20 still but my body says I'm.a dead set idiot. But there is a lot of us 40 and older who are bloody impressive with what we do windsurfing and how hard we go for it.

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AusMoz said..

sboardcrazy said..

AusMoz said..
Comes down to fitness both mental and physical. Challenging conditions and situations you got to prepare for always. If it goes bad - think positive

It's getting harder the older I get. The mind wants to do what I used to do in my 20s and 30s.. the body says bugger off..

I fully get what your saying! I'm 50 soon - I think I'm 20 still but my body says I'm.a dead set idiot. But there is a lot of us 40 and older who are bloody impressive with what we do windsurfing and how hard we go for it.

"I think I'm 20 still but my body says I'm.a dead set idiot."
So true..

Don't do it, a really stupid idea and a great way to get injured or dead

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kato said..
Don't do it, a really stupid idea and a great way to get injured or dead

.. or worse someone else dead, by trying to save you.In scuba-diving you are taught -> never rescue someone whom is drowning, as they will pull you down... wait until they unconscious, then save them.

I'm going to say it because it appears everyone else is sheepish -> you shouldn't go out with a big-sail when there is an expectation of wind-change, is you putting yourself in danger. This kind of situation is your own mistake. Instead, sail at a location where you are intrinsically safe.

Agreed! In the video above it's quite obvious a change in weather is approaching so if you're on a massive sail with limited skills it's probably time to head back and change gear or otherwise stay close to shore. I'm sure the sailor learnt their lesson but it could have ended worse.

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mathew said..

kato said..
Don't do it, a really stupid idea and a great way to get injured or dead

.. or worse someone else dead, by trying to save you.In scuba-diving you are taught -> never rescue someone whom is drowning, as they will pull you down... wait until they unconscious, then save them.

I'm going to say it because it appears everyone else is sheepish -> you shouldn't go out with a big-sail when there is an expectation of wind-change, is you putting yourself in danger. This kind of situation is your own mistake. Instead, sail at a location where you are intrinsically safe.

Geez, I don't know where you got your scuba ticket but that teaching is just so WRONG! If you wait till someone loses consciousness at say 60 feet down, by the time you get them to the surface and commence resuscitation it's going to be way too late. You can easily and safely grab the stage 1 regulator on their tank from behind and pull them wherever you want, regardless of their level of consciousness or panic.
I know this as I was dragged unwillingly and rapidly to the surface when an o-ring blew emitting a stream of bubbles from my tank. My buddy apparently thought I wasn't understanding his signalling and was somehow oblivious to all the bubbles so took action despite my "OK" signalling. Nothing I could do but have a much faster ascent than I'd have chosen! (Fast ascents are dangerous in scuba diving).

Anyhow, I think OP was just seeking advice on board leashes, not a critique on their skills and choices?
If there's gear available that gives someone confidence to push the envelope a bit further than they otherwise would, I don't think that anyone should discourage the use of that gear.

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mathew said..

kato said..
Don't do it, a really stupid idea and a great way to get injured or dead

.. or worse someone else dead, by trying to save you.In scuba-diving you are taught -> never rescue someone whom is drowning, as they will pull you down... wait until they unconscious, then save them.

I'm going to say it because it appears everyone else is sheepish -> you shouldn't go out with a big-sail when there is an expectation of wind-change, is you putting yourself in danger. This kind of situation is your own mistake. Instead, sail at a location where you are intrinsically safe.

Re video. I don't think the change was forecast. I did push my luck going for one more run.
I now do short runs there if the weather is dodgy and only go across the other side if it's light and not likely to do anything nasty.
I'd been off the water for a few months with Covid lockdowns etc.
I was a bit out of touch with mother nature and she caned me that day! It doesn't take long for you to lose your wind estimating skills..
If I get caught out again I'll just stay with the gear until I float ashore..

Just think about this situation- going at 30 knots in flat water and hit an object. You get catapulted and the leash is pulling directly towards you. The leash pulls the board (which is floating directly ) towards your head. That's one way how I think the leash would react

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sboardcrazy said..

Ben1973 said..
Nothing like almost getting back to your kit for the wind to get hold of it and blow it another 10meters away. First time it's annoying but after 3 or 4 times in a row it's exhausting

Pardon the language.

The language . sounds exactly like everyone of my sessions!

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AusMoz said..
Just think about this situation- going at 30 knots in flat water and hit an object. You get catapulted and the leash is pulling directly towards you. The leash pulls the board (which is floating directly ) towards your head. That's one way how I think the leash would react

Which is precisely why a leash should have a breakable connection to the board, which can withstand a fair tug in an average stack but will let go if the rider's velocity on reaching the end of the tether is excessive.

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Sandee said..
Geez, I don't know where you got your scuba ticket but that teaching is just so WRONG! If you wait till someone loses consciousness at say 60 feet down, by the time you get them to the surface and commence resuscitation it's going to be way too late. You can easily and safely grab the stage 1 regulator on their tank from behind and pull them wherever you want, regardless of their level of consciousness or panic.
I know this as I was dragged unwillingly and rapidly to the surface when an o-ring blew emitting a stream of bubbles from my tank. My buddy apparently thought I wasn't understanding his signalling and was somehow oblivious to all the bubbles so took action despite my "OK" signalling. Nothing I could do but have a much faster ascent than I'd have chosen! (Fast ascents are dangerous in scuba diving).

If someone is flailing at-depth, they will grab the reg from your mouth, and push you away. They may pull your mask off. That leaves you to flail about looking for the occy which is now swimming behind/below you. Its why you are taught to give-them a reg - even the one out of your mouth.

At the surface people will clamber over you, pushing you below the surface. It is why amongst the many reasons, that you keep your reg in your mouth even at the surface (other reasons are waves, climbing the boat-ladder, rescuing someone).

In other words, you only approach someone to rescue, or to be rescued, if both parties are cognizant. In your example, your buddy clearly wasn't cognizant. ( That statement obviously doesn't apply to rescue-divers, as they have the training to handle it. ) I have also breathed the last of a tank at 17m - both my buddy and I were calm, then we made a safe non-stop ascent.

How that applies here to this discussion. If someone is wearing a leash, there are a couple of scenarios that are immediately obvious:

1/ safe separation of gear from person - but since the scenario that needed the leash (gear moving faster than person), then you are now being dragged through the water. This is bad news for you because you aren't able to cleanly surface to get a lung-full and thus regain your composure. If you have ever surfed/long-board/sup and be dragged, you will now what this feeling is like. But unlike being dragged by a wave, the wind will continually drag you.

2/ leash gets wrapped around the board. Most sailors have had a good scare when their harness gets tangled in the lines, while you are under the sail. Now a similar situation but with lines wrapped somehow which you have to determine, while being washed.

3/ leash gets wrapped around the person. This really doesn't even need a discussion... its all bad. If you have ever surfed with a leg-rope and had it wrap around say your foot, or your hand because you paddled over it, then something (wind/waves) moves the board, then you will know how tight the rope will get. Now consider that a windsurf board+rig is about x10 heavier and x10 surface-area, you are easily looking at x100 the tension in that torniquet.

In all of these scenarios, the sailor is putting themselves at undue risk. If you try to help them, in all likelyhood you will now also be at-risk.

My experience from many years of kiting confirms the concerns above - I had a love hate relationship with leashes :

- moving feet around with a leash on a surfboard is a pain. The rope gets in your toes or gets tied up around your legs. Having foot-straps to add to the tangle down there would be terrible.

- in waves I always envied the windsurfers for being able to ditch their gear. Being dragged in the wash by your kit is no fun. Always worried about getting strung up like a Sunday roast in your strings. A leash had me in trouble several times by getting tangled with the rest of the gear. You could easily have a quick release system like with a kite, but in the wash all hell is going on with heavy pulls, could you find it when you need it ? Windsurf gear could really hurt when tied around you in the wash.
- when a kite is down and being blown in the water, it can dictate where you go, not you. Windsurf kit in rough conditions would be more powerful than a swimmer too.

- ropes and rocks/coral dont mix well, especially when near waves or very windy and kit is moving around.

- in a high velocity crash, you want a board going away from you, not jerked back towards you. Kite forums are full of face damage photos from this.

- leash was however super practical, a quick pull and you are back on board and off again. I dont see pulling a windsurf board and rig towards you quick tho. String and water starting could get messy. Forget up-hauling and dancing around the mast.

- Some pro kiters use a leash in the waves to keep board close to hand, some dont for reasons above. Otherwise its generally only for nervous beginner kiters many of whom are told to ditch the leash and learn asap about getting back to the board quick

in short, I am now delighted on my windsurfer and part of that feeling is not being tied to it.

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mathew said..

kato said..
Don't do it, a really stupid idea and a great way to get injured or dead

.. or worse someone else dead, by trying to save you.In scuba-diving you are taught -> never rescue someone whom is drowning, as they will pull you down... wait until they unconscious, then save them.

I'm going to say it because it appears everyone else is sheepish -> you shouldn't go out with a big-sail when there is an expectation of wind-change, is you putting yourself in danger. This kind of situation is your own mistake. Instead, sail at a location where you are intrinsically safe.

Ive never heard this advise EVER when diving. It is just plainly wrong. Yes you must ensure your own safety in any rescue situation , in any circumstance but you must render assistance as quickly as is possible. If someone is unconscious they will enter hypoxia rapidly.

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peterowensbabs said..
Ive never heard this advise EVER when diving. It is just plainly wrong. Yes you must ensure your own safety in any rescue situation , in any circumstance but you must render assistance as quickly as is possible. If someone is unconscious they will enter hypoxia rapidly.

Hypoxia occurs when there is no air-flow. Every emergency is different - some of them aren't out-of-air situations, such as due to diabetes related insulin-deficiency. Blanket statements about anything, isn't entirely helpful - which is what you are describing for my statements - so I take that on myself to more prescriptive... it was a flippant use of the phrase "... wait until they are unconscious..." which was clearly in reference to emergency situations where it is unsafe to save whomever needs the assistance, whom might also cause the rescuer to drown.

When life-guards are taught rescue of a drowning person, the teach you to not-drown due to the "instinctive drowning response"
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Instinctive_drowning_response#Danger_to_rescuer

This is what it looks like to be forced-underwater - ref BondiRescue

The "you must render assistance" is not a "must". There are documented cases where a diver got narc'ed, and the buddy couldnt catch up to them, so they both died ( I assume you trust DAN as a source without further cross-reference ) www.dansa.org/blog/2016/12/14/loss-of-consciousness


SSI rescue-training page 52 highlighted text, or you can read it from a tech-dive-instructor

scubaboard.com/community/threads/drowning-doesnt-look-like-drowning.609568/page-3#js-post-9416040