Having trouble getting the clew out of the water trying to waterstart my 7.0 race sail. All my other smaller sails no problem, just lack the strength factor with the 7.0. Anyone got any good tips for getting the clew out in a hurry? When sailing in slalom races with this sail and I drop the gybe around the buoy by the time I get back up on the board the race has finished because of this. And no laying the boom across the back of the board doesn't work because the board is shorter than the boom height.

When water starting big sails such as my Helium 7.5m with a clew length 212cm I tend to grab the back footstraps with one hand and drag the rig over my fore arm to pull it out of the water. The critical part I have noticed is not to be perpendicular to the wind, but with the rig about 20 degrees downwind more than normal. Then you have to give the rig a quick pull and right over the head to get that water off the clew. Any half hearted efforts usually results in being pushed down into the water, or the clew not quite clearing and wind catching underneath driving the rig into the water. If one doesn't start with rig more downwind than usual I usually find the rig drives me underwater as well as it will end up to far into the wind after the big pull.

It might put too much time on your waterstart if you're in a race, but I always found that working from the tip of the mast down can be a good way of getting the sail to 'fly'. It's also a quick way to flip the sail if you need to change the sail direction.

+1 re moving to the tip of the mast. Much easier to get the sail out of the water, then move down to the boom. Also, wearing a bouancy vest gives you more uplift.

PS I love how you southern guys call a 7.0 a big sail. Here in lightwind QLD that's small, my most used sails are the 8 or 9.5.

+2 tip of sail. Grab the tip and swim it upwind, then walk down to the boom with your arms...

If you can get the mast out of the water, then keep it as close to the water as possible without sinking it. The sail flying parallel to the water helps get the clew out of the water. You can help by pushing the tail of the board under the sail. Even thought the board is too short to push the boom out of the water, it will still push the bottom of the sail out of the water helping to get the clew out.

If all else fails, use the push the tip of the mast out of the water technique described above

No expert but I set downwind as well and instead of push up on the mast I pull the sail sideways through the water,if really stuck ill go back and forwards like a knifing action ,the clew is nearly always lower than the mast so it usurally slides right out .works for me .

if you can't fly the sail raising it while resting on your forearm then wait for a gust to appear to conserve strenghth. And as soon as it's about to lift you up you have to kick your trailing foot to give the extra push up unto the board.

For what it's worth, this has helped me:
1. Increased buoyancy by getting fatter (eating chocolate and wife's cooking - you are welcome for dinner anytime on your way home after work...)
2. Increased buoyancy further by wearing my ridiculous life jacket (also gives fantastic rib protection).
3. Install uphaul rope
Then when waterstarting:
4. Grab footstrap with arm closest to mast
5. Grab uphaul rope and pull sail up onto arm
6. Let go of uphaul rope and grab boom and away you go.

I find using the uphaul rope works well as I can let the sail be quite far downwind and I can be more upwind of the board than when holding the boom. I can then easily drag the sail upwind onto my arm - dragging it like this usually raises the clew very effectively.

Select to expand quote

Steve1001 said..

+1 re moving to the tip of the mast. Much easier to get the sail out of the water, then move down to the boom. Also, wearing a bouancy vest gives you more uplift.

PS I love how you southern guys call a 7.0 a big sail. Here in lightwind QLD that's small, my most used sails are the 8 or 9.5.

7m fully cammed is a big sail for a small woman .. You probably need to use a smaller board for speed racing but I won't use the 7.5m on a board I can't easily uphaul for that reason..Even with uphauling the 7.2m race NX Sailworks used to get glued to the water at times and be impossible to get up. The 7.5m 3 cam Severne Overdrive is lighter and more user friendly.

Select to expand quote

Steve1001 said..



PS I love how you southern guys call a 7.0 a big sail. Here in lightwind QLD that's small, my most used sails are the 8 or 9.5.

Yuk!!
Thanks for all the ideas. Conclusion - just too difficult for a woman considering the strength factor. I was probably having trouble because there was lots of chop where I was sailing and an outgoing tide. Normally I have the sail 90 degrees to the wind, grab the mast near the boom and swim into the wind while lifting the rig then the wind gets under the sail lifting the clew out the water. But last Friday the waves were just driving the clew to the bottom. Just have to not stuff up my gybes in races or hope they set the buoy where I can touch the bottom

sometimes it's quicker to jump on board and partial uphaul to clear. As John said, in windy or current or choppy conditions try to keep the sail flat, only lift up to waterstart position when you all set to jump on, also stops you getting dragged downwind.

Try prevention though- I try never to let go of sail (mast hand) when fall then you can control where it goes at least try to get it on windward side of board and you preferably upwind of mast. If it goes on leeward side it's always going to be hard.

That all said it's racing, you are trying to gybe and watch a hundred other things go on around you, you rarely get a clean line and it makes it hard- unless your fast enough to get out in front which if you are like me then go hahaaaaa eat my wake, remember you aren't the best gyber, proceed to screw it up, take cover under your gear (which also suddenly happens to be the new breeding ground for a large armada of jellyfish) while 30 other sailors use you as the new buoy and then curse at the inevitable wind shadow, get up and complete the rest of the race impecibly or horribly depending on the amount of jellyfish exposure and if you've swallowed enough water to drown 3 humpback whales.

Select to expand quote

Steve1001 said..

+1 re moving to the tip of the mast. Much easier to get the sail out of the water, then move down to the boom. Also, wearing a bouancy vest gives you more uplift.

PS I love how you southern guys call a 7.0 a big sail. Here in lightwind QLD that's small, my most used sails are the 8 or 9.5.

It's not that bad surely? At 85kg my most used this season has been 6.5.

I'm including my formula and raceboard hence the larger sail sizes. My most used slalom sails are the 7 and 8. The 6.2 gets used very rarely.

If the sail falls awkward (anything other than a perfect spot to waterstart), then I'll jump up and use my up-haul (much quicker). Too many things can go wrong trying to waterstart in the panic situation of a race, especially if there's not a lot of wind to begin with and there's other people falling off around you at the rounding mark. Anything below a 7m though and if pretty windy, waterstarts are OK, as you can get a smaller rig into position pretty quick and power-up and you're off.

In similar case when strong current and wind is sinking the sail I try to start in opposite direction then gybe.
For some reason when water start seems to be impossible in one direction is still reasonably easy to do in another.
But you need to be confident in gybing or at least reach the safer place .

Select to expand quote

Dean 424 said..

The critical part I have noticed is not to be perpendicular to the wind, but with the rig about 20 degrees downwind more than normal.

Do you mean the mast pointing downwind 20 degrees?

Yep the mast. i.e. 110 degrees from wind direction. I just find with the longer clews by the time you pull the water off the clew with a good yank on the mast the sail is not 90 degrees to the wind which is where I want to be for the second part of the waterstart.

Select to expand quote

Kazza said..

Steve1001 said..



PS I love how you southern guys call a 7.0 a big sail. Here in lightwind QLD that's small, my most used sails are the 8 or 9.5.

Yuk!!
Thanks for all the ideas. Conclusion - just too difficult for a woman considering the strength factor. I was probably having trouble because there was lots of chop where I was sailing and an outgoing tide. Normally I have the sail 90 degrees to the wind, grab the mast near the boom and swim into the wind while lifting the rig then the wind gets under the sail lifting the clew out the water. But last Friday the waves were just driving the clew to the bottom. Just have to not stuff up my gybes in races or hope they set the buoy where I can touch the bottom

Not too difficult, most of the time, but can be difficult if the tide is flowing in the opposite direction to the wind. Heavy chop of course complicates things.
My biggest sail is a 7.5 and I can waterstart it. If there is enough wind to plane there is enough to waterstart the sail without too much difficulty.
1. wear a buoyancy vest - essential for me to waterstart my bigger sails.
2. don't lift the mast very high - the wind vs tide will pivot the sail around where it enters the water and will make the clew sink deeper.
3. the sail at 90 degrees to the wind and swim into the wind method usually works but not if the tide is flowing against the wind. The clew gets pushed down faster than you can free it. In that case you need to use the front hand on the back footstrap, back hand palm up under the mast above the boom. In one quick flowing motion, pushing down and across on the footstrap and twisting your body as you go, slice the mast up and over your head. This slices the clew out of the water so you are not lifting any water, and the movement is so quick the tide can't push it down. No wind required either.

Select to expand quote

Windxtasy said..

Kazza said..

Steve1001 said..



PS I love how you southern guys call a 7.0 a big sail. Here in lightwind QLD that's small, my most used sails are the 8 or 9.5.

Yuk!!
Thanks for all the ideas. Conclusion - just too difficult for a woman considering the strength factor. I was probably having trouble because there was lots of chop where I was sailing and an outgoing tide. Normally I have the sail 90 degrees to the wind, grab the mast near the boom and swim into the wind while lifting the rig then the wind gets under the sail lifting the clew out the water. But last Friday the waves were just driving the clew to the bottom. Just have to not stuff up my gybes in races or hope they set the buoy where I can touch the bottom

Not too difficult, most of the time, but can be difficult if the tide is flowing in the opposite direction to the wind. Heavy chop of course complicates things.
My biggest sail is a 7.5 and I can waterstart it. If there is enough wind to plane there is enough to waterstart the sail without too much difficulty.
1. wear a buoyancy vest - essential for me to waterstart my bigger sails.
2. don't lift the mast very high - the wind vs tide will pivot the sail around where it enters the water and will make the clew sink deeper.
3. the sail at 90 degrees to the wind and swim into the wind method usually works but not if the tide is flowing against the wind. The clew gets pushed down faster than you can free it. In that case you need to use the front hand on the back footstrap, back hand palm up under the mast above the boom. In one quick flowing motion, pushing down and across on the footstrap and twisting your body as you go, slice the mast up and over your head. This slices the clew out of the water so you are not lifting any water, and the movement is so quick the tide can't push it down. No wind required either.

Hmmm that last bit sounds like an interesting manouver, I'm just trying to visualise it.
To complicate it even more the bloody cams won't flip around the mast either. So here I am waterstarting with the belly of the sail pushed the wrong way as well. I have to hold the mast either side of the boom and push the cam with my foot to get the sail around. I usually do waterstart this sail with the cams flicked the wrong way then they flick around when I get moving, but when the clew is being driven down as well as the cams not flicking around it's a total nightmare. I hate big sails winge winge winge.......but it is very frustrating when your trying to race.

When the cams are in the wrong direction, I grab the boom with 2 hands and push the 3rd from the bottom batton and cam up with the top of my head until it rotates. I then use the Windextasy technique.

If this fails, I use the lift the mast tip out of the water technique.

The key to all this is to wear a flotation device.

Select to expand quote

Windxtasy said..

Kazza said..

Steve1001 said..



PS I love how you southern guys call a 7.0 a big sail. Here in lightwind QLD that's small, my most used sails are the 8 or 9.5.

Yuk!!
Thanks for all the ideas. Conclusion - just too difficult for a woman considering the strength factor. I was probably having trouble because there was lots of chop where I was sailing and an outgoing tide. Normally I have the sail 90 degrees to the wind, grab the mast near the boom and swim into the wind while lifting the rig then the wind gets under the sail lifting the clew out the water. But last Friday the waves were just driving the clew to the bottom. Just have to not stuff up my gybes in races or hope they set the buoy where I can touch the bottom

Not too difficult, most of the time, but can be difficult if the tide is flowing in the opposite direction to the wind. Heavy chop of course complicates things.
My biggest sail is a 7.5 and I can waterstart it. If there is enough wind to plane there is enough to waterstart the sail without too much difficulty.
1. wear a buoyancy vest - essential for me to waterstart my bigger sails.
2. don't lift the mast very high - the wind vs tide will pivot the sail around where it enters the water and will make the clew sink deeper.
3. the sail at 90 degrees to the wind and swim into the wind method usually works but not if the tide is flowing against the wind. The clew gets pushed down faster than you can free it. In that case you need to use the front hand on the back footstrap, back hand palm up under the mast above the boom. In one quick flowing motion, pushing down and across on the footstrap and twisting your body as you go, slice the mast up and over your head. This slices the clew out of the water so you are not lifting any water, and the movement is so quick the tide can't push it down. No wind required either.

I learnt that at the Guy Cribb clinic but have been too slack to use it..
Usually there is enough wind to waterstart when I am using 6.6m or smaller.

Select to expand quote

Kazza said..

Windxtasy said..

Kazza said..

Steve1001 said..



PS I love how you southern guys call a 7.0 a big sail. Here in lightwind QLD that's small, my most used sails are the 8 or 9.5.

Yuk!!
Thanks for all the ideas. Conclusion - just too difficult for a woman considering the strength factor. I was probably having trouble because there was lots of chop where I was sailing and an outgoing tide. Normally I have the sail 90 degrees to the wind, grab the mast near the boom and swim into the wind while lifting the rig then the wind gets under the sail lifting the clew out the water. But last Friday the waves were just driving the clew to the bottom. Just have to not stuff up my gybes in races or hope they set the buoy where I can touch the bottom

Not too difficult, most of the time, but can be difficult if the tide is flowing in the opposite direction to the wind. Heavy chop of course complicates things.
My biggest sail is a 7.5 and I can waterstart it. If there is enough wind to plane there is enough to waterstart the sail without too much difficulty.
1. wear a buoyancy vest - essential for me to waterstart my bigger sails.
2. don't lift the mast very high - the wind vs tide will pivot the sail around where it enters the water and will make the clew sink deeper.
3. the sail at 90 degrees to the wind and swim into the wind method usually works but not if the tide is flowing against the wind. The clew gets pushed down faster than you can free it. In that case you need to use the front hand on the back footstrap, back hand palm up under the mast above the boom. In one quick flowing motion, pushing down and across on the footstrap and twisting your body as you go, slice the mast up and over your head. This slices the clew out of the water so you are not lifting any water, and the movement is so quick the tide can't push it down. No wind required either.

Hmmm that last bit sounds like an interesting manouver, I'm just trying to visualise it.
To complicate it even more the bloody cams won't flip around the mast either. So here I am waterstarting with the belly of the sail pushed the wrong way as well. I have to hold the mast either side of the boom and push the cam with my foot to get the sail around. I usually do waterstart this sail with the cams flicked the wrong way then they flick around when I get moving, but when the clew is being driven down as well as the cams not flicking around it's a total nightmare. I hate big sails winge winge winge.......but it is very frustrating when your trying to race.

I'm not the only one that happens to! I hate that too....Even when uphauling it makes life really difficult which is why I got an easy uphaul..( when I get my act together and have it the right length it works well..so long as its not too choppy).

Since no one else has mentioned it, I sometimes use a thing called the waterstarter, a foam thingy that wraps around the clew end. Works very well but adds some weight on the wrong end and looks goofy if you care about those things, I don't.

So here I am waterstarting with the belly of the sail pushed the wrong way as well

That does make it hard.

I use my leg to flip the cams over. From the mast side, I put my foot on the inside of the boom at around about the widest part, and bend the leg. I am holding the mast as I do this.This makes the knee push up against the sail and the cams flip over easily. It is really quick and you don't even need to have the mast out of the water. I find it easier than flipping the cams with a good pump, even with small sails.

All great suggestions thanks everyone, the foamy thing on the clew sounds like an quick and easy option for just general sailing, racing I probably wouldn't want any extra weight on the sail.
The cams on this sail are extremely tight to flick and I've taken all the spacers out too and it's had plenty of use to run itself in, any idea's on getting cams to rotate better?
Love waterstarting wavesails, it's such a breeze.........

Tight cams rotate easier from the clew end. Most people when trying to pop cams (myself included for a short while) think that it's at the mast end - you need to create a wave effect from the clew end in order to flick the battens & cams around. Don't push the battens out with your hand as it will result in breakages - always use the wind where you can. A bit of strength is needed sometimes to 'pump' the battens/cams around.

Re; 'belly of the sail wrong way' - this is where going to the mast tip helps. Lift it out of the water & 'walk' your hands down the mast holding it at 90deg to the wind. If the battens are bellying down and the sail is facing the right way, drag the mast slightly leeward as you lift in order to keep the sail facing the right way. The sail will lift higher with the battens down once floated & will make it easier to pop the cams. If the sail is facing the wrong way, once the boom is out of the water (and if you're about 90deg to the wind), you can flip it left or right to the direction you want the sail by pushing the board to the left or right, then - once you've walked your hands down to about the boom, grab the boom with your back hand as close to the clew & give it a quick/sharp pull-down (flick). The air under the sail should pop the cams. Then simply move your hand from the mast to the forward end of the boom (or sometimes, keep your leading hand on the mast) - and you're away.

Cammed sails are technical - but awesome!

Select to expand quote

Kazza said..


The cams on this sail are extremely tight to flick and I've taken all the spacers out too and it's had plenty of use to run itself in, any idea's on getting cams to rotate better?

We are presuming you have the compatible mast of course. Less batten tension? I bought a sail from an expert sailor and spent half an hour on the beach prior to first use incrementally loosening batten tension so I could flip the cams over, and this was only a 4m sail in really strong wind! A drum tight luff is wonderfully stable, but if you can't flip the cams over... We ladies can't generate the same force to flip cams that the guys can.

Select to expand quote

Subsonic said..

+2 tip of sail. Grab the tip and swim it upwind, then walk down to the boom with your arms...

Yes you need bring the mast around so you are moving it upwind, then it is a lot easier to fly out of the water.
.......... when you know you are going to fall into the water, try to fall in such a way that you can fly the sail straight away and keep the mast out of the water, then you can waterstart instantly. A vest does help in this regard.

Select to expand quote

Windxtasy said..

Kazza said..


The cams on this sail are extremely tight to flick and I've taken all the spacers out too and it's had plenty of use to run itself in, any idea's on getting cams to rotate better?

We are presuming you have the compatible mast of course. Less batten tension? I bought a sail from an expert sailor and spent half an hour on the beach prior to first use incrementally loosening batten tension so I could flip the cams over, and this was only a 4m sail in really strong wind! A drum tight luff is wonderfully stable, but if you can't flip the cams over... We ladies can't generate the same force to flip cams that the guys can.

I reckon that's what the problem is, I've been tightening them every now and then to get the vertical crinkles out, but they don't seem to disappear anyway when I tighten them, so I think I'll loosen them off again. Yes right mast for sail. I'll let you know how the flipping goes when I get to use the sail again You never know, it might just improve the waterstarting problem too

Select to expand quote

John340 said..

When the cams are in the wrong direction, I grab the boom with 2 hands and push the 3rd from the bottom batton and cam up with the top of my head until it rotates. I then use the Windextasy technique.

If this fails, I use the lift the mast tip out of the water technique.

The key to all this is to wear a flotation device.

I tired that once and almost drowned..