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Shifu said..
Foils are dominant, but we know they would all rather sail fins. Everyone wants to watch fin sailing. Foil racing is a bit dull in comparison and the stance very awkward-looking. Fin and Foil divisions would be good: or removing foils altogether.

I agree sterile racing, the only exciting part is when they crash, foils have arrived and won't be surpassed until the next evolution comes through

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duzzi said..

Wind Smurf said..

Gestalt said..
Yeah baby, fins are back!

lot of talk about fin or foil.. I'd be keen to see it left to the sailors to choose and run both together.

That's what they do. The women have had Sarah Quinta on the fin and the others chose the foil. The men can choose what they want to sail on but they all chose the foil. I personally reckon that each race should be one or the other or the whole event on foil and then the next event on fin.

Last day got some fin wins ... I still think they should split the fleet.

during the racing Ben was talking to the idea that they split the fleet, maybe have wind categories or events specified as fin or foil depending on location.

all of this to me just waters down the potential. , reduces sponsorship options and turns a world tour into factions based on location.

i'd prefer a tour that covers a range of conditions around the world and isn't limited to wind strengths.

the are other problems with splitting the fleet, it probably wouldn't suit the ladies due to numbers and would also water down the mens fleet into smaller groups. some competitors are fin only, some foil only, some foil or fin.
what do you do when the wind is light for the fins? have no races? this is kinda what killed a few events in the first place and lead to freestyle and slalom using foils.

i'm loving all of the racing, fin and foil combined is exciting and leads to a very competitive event.

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Maddlad said..


I disagree. Foil racing is just as exciting, especially if you've actually tried doing what they're doing at any speed. Once again, its only the fin lovers that bitch and moan about foils when they're getting spanked by them in the races. As soon as the fin wins a race they start cheering that fins are back, despite losing 99% of the races. What those guys and gals were doing in Pozo and Fuerta on foils was absolutely amazing and should be appreciated for how great it was.

I was going to thumbs up this but that's already maxed out
Well said Maddlad +1

I thought the in/out over the swell would scupper the foilers more. There were plenty of crashes, but a foiler would win most heats. Day 4 when they changed the course layout I thought that was unfair to the fins, but day 5 they had the 'speed' course which favoured the fins, apart from the tight 2nd leg back out. They should have had a gybe mark where the finish bouy was as the swell was picking up to a wave there.

It may be the non-foilers moaning about the foils taking over, but its the foilers denouncing that fin windsurfing is dead all the time. Its not. It reminds me of kiters who left windsurfing, then kept going on about how radical their new sport was. We all know someone like that, dont we?
Cedric Bordes joined Ben in the commentary box and was saying that fin windsurfing is still the largest market out of the 2. Not many foilers do speed/slalom foiling. He also said they had to be careful they dont go down the same path they did years ago, with windsurfing going too extreme. He should know, he worked for GA/Tabou for many years in the past in many roles, now Severne.

How many foilers denouncing fins have actually gone over 25knots 10s avg? I'm only up to 21.4.

Sounded like things might change next year, perhaps a couple of fin only events. But getting someone to run them might be hard incase there is light winds.
If they keep them together, but have a separate ranking, they need to think about the draw. If you are a fin sailor and get drawn against 7 foils you wont get through, but if you are drawn in a heat with 5 fins 3 foils you stand a chance. In past years they have had 56+ at Sotavento, this year 36, and at Pozo just 28. Lake Gard had 50, but a lot of Europeans could drive/camp there cheaper.



ps I think Cedric also mentioned the development of the foils at the top end shouldn't mean they start racing in less wind, the 7-10knots wind. Goyard may have used a 7m and his larger 465 wing, but the wind was 15 knots.

Huge field for the freestyle comp. Great mix of racers and wave sailors joining in with dedicated freestylers

goes to show how much talent there is at this level to be able to do it all.

It's time for foils only!
Can't have the Olympics on foil and the PWA with a "fin only tour". Why does the PWA need to follow the market; it should just be the pinnacle of sporting ability not trying to sell consumer gear. F1 and America's Cup don't.

If you think foils aren't interesting I invite you back to a few of the "typical" events on the PWA at Costa Brava / Alacati / Turkmenistan / Sylt where the wind is 7-12 knots and it is not possible to overtake a single person after the first mark as only the leader could get clear air to accerelate. The foils can sail fast on any angle you can gybe 50m wide and get clear air and still find a good line to the next mark... finally slalom is tactical.

Foil courses are completely untapped. The 4 gybe 'M' course is designed for fins and largely never been mucked with. With foil only you could do all sorts of tight and deep course ideas which would help open up the opportunities for the guys who are less than 90kg. Cut the amount of gear the need (the costs of these foils are already rediculous... let's not keep a 3rd slalom board on top of that).

When you guys watch the wave events does it bother you that Roediger is using a custom board that's sprayed in production board colours? Why then does it matter if the PWA is all on foils if you are sailing with fins at home?

PWA will only work if the brands are behind it, paying the wages of the sailors.*

On gps-speedsailing, which has a decent sized database and users, there are 16 sessions posted from today so far on the fin site, 11 slalom boards, 4 freeride boards and 1 speed board. On the foiling site, just 1.

How many sailors have gone over 25 knots on the 10s average this year? How many on fin? How many on foil?

Have a guess, no peeking

Then lets have a discussion about dropping fin sailing from the PWA tour.

* and the PWA a load of money to register their brand.

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SeanAUS120 said..
It's time for foils only!
Can't have the Olympics on foil and the PWA with a "fin only tour". Why does the PWA need to follow the market; it should just be the pinnacle of sporting ability not trying to sell consumer gear. F1 and America's Cup don't.

If you think foils aren't interesting I invite you back to a few of the "typical" events on the PWA at Costa Brava / Alacati / Turkmenistan / Sylt where the wind is 7-12 knots and it is not possible to overtake a single person after the first mark as only the leader could get clear air to accerelate. The foils can sail fast on any angle you can gybe 50m wide and get clear air and still find a good line to the next mark... finally slalom is tactical.

Foil courses are completely untapped. The 4 gybe 'M' course is designed for fins and largely never been mucked with. With foil only you could do all sorts of tight and deep course ideas which would help open up the opportunities for the guys who are less than 90kg. Cut the amount of gear the need (the costs of these foils are already rediculous... let's not keep a 3rd slalom board on top of that).

When you guys watch the wave events does it bother you that Roediger is using a custom board that's sprayed in production board colours? Why then does it matter if the PWA is all on foils if you are sailing with fins at home?

Brands might stop investing in sail/board development for fins

Why does it have to be fin only or foil only. This is not one design racing

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PhilUK said..
I thought the in/out over the swell would scupper the foilers more. There were plenty of crashes, but a foiler would win most heats. Day 4 when they changed the course layout I thought that was unfair to the fins, but day 5 they had the 'speed' course which favoured the fins, apart from the tight 2nd leg back out. They should have had a gybe mark where the finish bouy was as the swell was picking up to a wave there.

It may be the non-foilers moaning about the foils taking over, but its the foilers denouncing that fin windsurfing is dead all the time. Its not. It reminds me of kiters who left windsurfing, then kept going on about how radical their new sport was. We all know someone like that, dont we?
Cedric Bordes joined Ben in the commentary box and was saying that fin windsurfing is still the largest market out of the 2. Not many foilers do speed/slalom foiling. He also said they had to be careful they dont go down the same path they did years ago, with windsurfing going too extreme. He should know, he worked for GA/Tabou for many years in the past in many roles, now Severne.

How many foilers denouncing fins have actually gone over 25knots 10s avg? I'm only up to 21.4.

Sounded like things might change next year, perhaps a couple of fin only events. But getting someone to run them might be hard incase there is light winds.
If they keep them together, but have a separate ranking, they need to think about the draw. If you are a fin sailor and get drawn against 7 foils you wont get through, but if you are drawn in a heat with 5 fins 3 foils you stand a chance. In past years they have had 56+ at Sotavento, this year 36, and at Pozo just 28. Lake Gard had 50, but a lot of Europeans could drive/camp there cheaper.



ps I think Cedric also mentioned the development of the foils at the top end shouldn't mean they start racing in less wind, the 7-10knots wind. Goyard may have used a 7m and his larger 465 wing, but the wind was 15 knots.

I'm not sure where you're seeing foilers saying fins are dead. All i ever see is fin sailors moaning about foils on the facebook coverage or youtube coverage of slalom events.
I use both in the conditions that suit them best, and that gives me a chance to go windsurfing almost 365 days a year, where as before it was usually only summer and the odd nor-west storm in winter where i could go sailing. Foils have revolutionised sailing as far as im concerned and thats a good thing because if it means more time on the water then i'm all for it.

I dont see anyone in the thread complaining about foiling either.

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PhilUK said..
PWA will only work if the brands are behind it, paying the wages of the sailors.*

On gps-speedsailing, which has a decent sized database and users, there are 16 sessions posted from today so far on the fin site, 11 slalom boards, 4 freeride boards and 1 speed board. On the foiling site, just 1.

How many sailors have gone over 25 knots on the 10s average this year? How many on fin? How many on foil?

Have a guess, no peeking

Then lets have a discussion about dropping fin sailing from the PWA tour.

* and the PWA a load of money to register their brand.

I'm sure a lot more will be trying now after watching the foils in the PWA.
You would be surprised how easy it is to do 25 plus on the gear now. Yes for peak gps speeds on a perfect angle and flat water fin is faster. The fins were hitting 39 knot peaks during the racing yet were still getting beaten to the finish by foils.
The fins are not dead, but the foils are a breath of fresh air.

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Maddlad said..

I'm not sure where you're seeing foilers saying fins are dead. All i ever see is fin sailors moaning about foils on the facebook coverage or youtube coverage of slalom events.

Thats where I see people saying fin is dead, maybe its the same 2 or 3 people all the time.

On GPS-Speedsailing, the number of sailors this year over 25 knots 10s average speed on foil 85 sailors, on fin 1080 (705 over 30 knots).
175 foil sailors & 1251 fin sailors have posted sessions. Maybe thats not reflected worldwide, as that site has a lot of Dutch sailors on it and some of their spots are shallow.

I didnt sail yesterday as it was gusty, 24 knots average wind gusting 32, and chucking it down but 5 of the regular speedsters went out, all on fin all over 30 knots. 4 of them also foil, but usually when its less than 20 knots. The other says he doesnt want to start foiling as he would never get any work done. He only sails when its 20 knots wind, 7m or less anyway.
I'm guessing, but reckon this is what a lot of sailors do, use foils in lighter winds to increase the time on water, and keep fin for when its decent wind for on the fin.
So I think the PWA needs to reflect this, certainly the brands will still want to push fin slalom kit.

Foil sailing bears no resemblance to windsurfing I do, and I think which most people do - blasting and gybing. PWA racing was fun to watch from that perspective. Now it isn't.

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Shifu said..
PWA racing was fun to watch from that perspective. Now it isn't.

speak for yourself.


i thought the last 2 events were pretty epic, some of the best slalom racing i've ever watched. It was made even better at Fuerte, because the fins were actually winning a few.

as good as drone footage is, i don't think it fully translates the speed and conditions the sailors are actually sailing in. It softens the conditions up and makes it look like they're all on cruise control. Fin sailing involves stamina. but foil sailing needs complete focus, especially at those speeds.

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Subsonic said..
It softens the conditions up and makes it look like they're all on cruise control.

I'd be more inclined to say that it's the foils that cause that - no wake.

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Subsonic said..

Shifu said..
PWA racing was fun to watch from that perspective. Now it isn't.

speak for yourself.


i thought the last 2 events were pretty epic, some of the best slalom racing i've ever watched. It was made even better at Fuerte, because the fins were actually winning a few.

as good as drone footage is, i don't think it fully translates the speed and conditions the sailors are actually sailing in. It softens the conditions up and makes it look like they're all on cruise control. Fin sailing involves stamina. but foil sailing needs complete focus, especially at those speeds.

Yeah, we need onboard cameras, like here..: ?t=445

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Shifu said..
Foil sailing bears no resemblance to windsurfing I do, and I think which most people do - blasting and gybing. PWA racing was fun to watch from that perspective. Now it isn't.

Shifu, wind foiling would double or triple your time on water at Queen's Beach. Come and join the fun.

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Shifu said..
Foil sailing bears no resemblance to windsurfing I do, and I think which most people do - blasting and gybing. PWA racing was fun to watch from that perspective. Now it isn't.

So the real issue is because you dont do it then the PWA shouldnt either hey? At least you're honest about your agenda. ;)

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Maddlad said..

Shifu said..
Foil sailing bears no resemblance to windsurfing I do, and I think which most people do - blasting and gybing. PWA racing was fun to watch from that perspective. Now it isn't.

So the real issue is because you dont do it then the PWA shouldnt either hey? At least you're honest about your agenda. ;)

Doesn't matter about any individual, however the pwa stated aim is: (from their website)

We the PWA are the sailors who represent the sport at the highest level of competition, we strive to improve everyday and make windsurfing better for you, the public.The PWA organize and sanction professional events, make new rules for the sport, help promote grass roots growth, strengthen the bonds of friendship between existing associations, classes and disciplines of windsurfing and to provide support and services for all windsurfers.

Carnage at Fuerteventura especially as the wind picked up on day 5!

Snap mast on the speed run! ?feature=share&t=3404
Wipeouts ?feature=share&t=3581
dropped gybes, collisions...
mid-race jumps ?feature=share&t=4487
and more.

Worth watching if you haven't!!!

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Bellerophon said..

Subsonic said..

Shifu said..
PWA racing was fun to watch from that perspective. Now it isn't.

speak for yourself.


i thought the last 2 events were pretty epic, some of the best slalom racing i've ever watched. It was made even better at Fuerte, because the fins were actually winning a few.

as good as drone footage is, i don't think it fully translates the speed and conditions the sailors are actually sailing in. It softens the conditions up and makes it look like they're all on cruise control. Fin sailing involves stamina. but foil sailing needs complete focus, especially at those speeds

Yeah, we need onboard cameras, like here..:

?t=445

That IS nice! Although you will need to mix it with the regular footage, which means a lot of real time editing.

Foil vs fin? It seems obvious to me that fin needs to go. It is slower on the race course, a fin has not won an event in the men class, since 2019, it needs more wind, cancelled events are quite a thing of the past and classic venues like Garda are back, it requires large amounts of equipment while foil only would get away with 1 or 2 boards and 2-4 sails. And the racing is stunning, change the format to something people can easily understand, like the American's Cup course, forget about a purely downwind course, and you have a winner! It might even get popular! What not to like about foil?

Fins are here to stay, unless they are wiped out by wings, as it is seemingly happening in the San Francisco Bay Area. They are still much easier to sail than any type of foil. Even expert level sailor (like myself) find them difficult to approach (yes, I still have to achieve a sustained flight longer than 50 yards!), and that might rescue them from disappearance. But for PWA, as it happened in the Olympics, they are the past.

I think some people still dont realise that fins are a large sector of the market. The brands wont want to ditch all racing on fins.
I'm not buying fin and foil are the same sport. either.

I think they might have slalom racing as an open class, with fins being subset of that, with its own ranking, a share of the prize money. Maybe just limit the fins to reliable high wind venues. How many used just fin at Sotavento? 10? If that was the number, you could run a separate class with just 1 final, like the women's event. 20? Split them, have a semi final, and A & B finals. Its not fair throwing them in with the foils as it would be the luck of the draw in the early rounds as to who you are drawn against. The downside to that is you have to be a fin or foil sailor.
As far as equipment restriction goes, the current 2 front wings limit held a few back at Sotavento. How would Goyard have got on with a 8.5m and 475cm2 wing at Garda? Foiling has come on fast this year. Maybe have 3 or 4 wing restriction, 2 masts/fuselage/boards to keep a lid on costs.

The Olympics have IQ Foil because they kept going to venues with no wind, apart from the mighty Portland Harbour, UK, where they were lucky and got good planing winds most days. The only reason the PWA went to Turkmenistan is because some rich person there paid them to.
I wouldnt want to see the PWA downwind slalom turn into the same format as IQ-Foil as that is there already.

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duzzi said..

Bellerophon said..

Subsonic said..

Shifu said..
PWA racing was fun to watch from that perspective. Now it isn't.

speak for yourself.


i thought the last 2 events were pretty epic, some of the best slalom racing i've ever watched. It was made even better at Fuerte, because the fins were actually winning a few.

as good as drone footage is, i don't think it fully translates the speed and conditions the sailors are actually sailing in. It softens the conditions up and makes it look like they're all on cruise control. Fin sailing involves stamina. but foil sailing needs complete focus, especially at those speeds

Yeah, we need onboard cameras, like here..:

?t=445

That IS nice! Although you will need to mix it with the regular footage, which means a lot of real time editing.

Foil vs fin? It seems obvious to me that fin needs to go. It is slower on the race course, a fin has not won an event in the men class, since 2019, it needs more wind, cancelled events are quite a thing of the past and classic venues like Garda are back, it requires large amounts of equipment while foil only would get away with 1 or 2 boards and 2-4 sails. And the racing is stunning, change the format to something people can easily understand, like the American's Cup course, forget about a purely downwind course, and you have a winner! It might even get popular! What not to like about foil?

Fins are here to stay, unless they are wiped out by wings, as it is seemingly happening in the San Francisco Bay Area. They are still much easier to sail than any type of foil. Even expert level sailor (like myself) find them difficult to approach (yes, I still have to achieve a sustained flight longer than 50 yards!), and that might rescue them from disappearance. But for PWA, as it happened in the Olympics, they are the past.

pwa is slalom, wave, freestyle and superx.

iq foil is americas cup.

The answer is obvious....open racing but 2 subdivisions. So an overall winner, a foil winner and a 'heritage" division winner. Sorry, couldn't resist...

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mr love said..
The answer is obvious....open racing but 2 subdivisions. So an overall winner, a foil winner and a 'heritage" division winner. Sorry, couldn't resist...

strongly agree Martin.

Just caught up with the last video.

great event! Great coverage! How awesome is Sarah-Quita