In recent podcast Diony made a comment along the lines of no one pays attention. Got me wondering as not many guys at my local seem to follow PWA.

Do you follow PWA at all, if so which discipline/s & any specific reason you follow or why not?

Do brand results matter to you?

Do particular riders affect your purchasing choices, if not what does- brand loyalty, designer, price, local performance, build quality, sponsored locals or it's what your local shop sells?

Ignoring the feelings of the pros should the pwa bring back multi discipline overall champ? If so do you think it would really slow down progression in individual disciplines?

How important do you think pros are to gear development? Would you buy a brand developed without pro riders? Do you think brands should settle into say a 2 year cycle to have more time to develop a better sorted product?

If you don't follow what could the pwa & pros do to have you following/supporting them?

I follow the biggest windsurfing discipline, GPS Speed Sailing, it's something everyone of all levels can participate in.

Surely gps isn't the biggest discipline.

Wing Dinging has taken over l think.

I always buy the most latest old piece of secondhand gear off Seabreeze as recommended after extensive testing and development by the dude that last owned it that it is the greatest ever "real world" slalom/wave/freestyle kit that has never has any water inside it that they know of and that ding in the nose 'tis but a flesh wound.

I Think people defiantly buy a winning product ,and the PWA is very important for windsurfing .keeps the cash flow going .
And keeps companies developing faster gear ,I think it would be a sad day if it stopped ,

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mkseven said..
In recent podcast Diony made a comment along the lines of no one pays attention. Got me wondering as not many guys at my local seem to follow PWA.

Do you follow PWA at all, if so which discipline/s & any specific reason you follow or why not?

Do brand results matter to you?

Do particular riders affect your purchasing choices, if not what does- brand loyalty, designer, price, local performance, build quality, sponsored locals or it's what your local shop sells?

Ignoring the feelings of the pros should the pwa bring back multi discipline overall champ? If so do you think it would really slow down progression in individual disciplines?

How important do you think pros are to gear development? Would you buy a brand developed without pro riders? Do you think brands should settle into say a 2 year cycle to have more time to develop a better sorted product?

If you don't follow what could the pwa & pros do to have you following/supporting them?

I don't watch sports ... but glad competitive racing is around, equipment does get better because of competition ...

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mkseven said..
Surely gps isn't the biggest discipline.

In terms of competition participation (posting sessions)

yes, of course I'm following PWA races.

With the 2 years corona, PA took a major hit. But than came Tiberias, Israel, the first slalom fin/windfoil combined races - with the win of Nicolas, using Phantom Windfoil stuff. The video/drone live transmission worked well and in the German Surf-forum.com have been several members looking the races and commenting online in the forum.

Could PWA keep this quality of video/droning and keeps publishing great videos like "ONE" by Nico Prien, the numbers of viewers would increase.

The win of Nicolas Goyard had a huge impact on the other riders, diminishing the future of Salom-fin-Windsurfing in more wind breezes, too, and for the companys to develop similar foisl as Phantom (as we know from Starboard 2022 - that's a very difficult task).

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choco said..

mkseven said..
Surely gps isn't the biggest discipline.

In terms of competition participation (posting sessions)

Hah this isn't gonna be popular but is posting sessions actually competing? I mean doing endless laps of the pool wasn't competing, ditto for every other sport of similar fun/training/compete program. It can't even be compared to cycling which at least you can go ride the exact same circuit.

People are naturally compeitive, but really can beer drinking between mates be classed then as a competition. Big difference to organised competition that eliminates same variables same time, same course etc. But this is what some of us have always been saying

But on topic relevance of pwa & pro riders?

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t36 said..
yes, of course I'm following PWA races.

With the 2 years corona, PA took a major hit. But than came Tiberias, Israel, the first slalom fin/windfoil combined races - with the win of Nicolas, using Phantom Windfoil stuff. The video/drone live transmission worked well and in the German Surf-forum.com have been several members looking the races and commenting online in the forum.

Could PWA keep this quality of video/droning and keeps publishing great videos like "ONE" by Nico Prien, the numbers of viewers would increase.

The win of Nicolas Goyard had a huge impact on the other riders, diminishing the future of Salom-fin-Windsurfing in more wind breezes, too, and for the companys to develop similar foisl as Phantom (as we know from Starboard 2022 - that's a very difficult task).

Is that the way it actually happened, didn't Goyards win IQ championship not using phantom stuff? I havn't overly followed foil development but apart from being very talented they seem to have done things a little different to most pwa guys (who have split their time more).

Personally I find foil race viewing really boring- nothing like the kite foils which is cool (& i dont kite) & I don't like seeing foil & fin combined. Performance isn't being questioned & isn't everything, I feel the same way about watching the old vs newer AC boats. Do increases in speed & not suffering so much with wind shifts & lulls seem to reduce tactics?

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mkseven said..

Do you follow PWA at all, if so which discipline/s & any specific reason you follow or why not?

Yes, slalom and waves. Not interested in freestyle.

Do brand results matter to you?

No.

Do particular riders affect your purchasing choices No, if not what does- brand loyalty, designer, price, local performance, build quality, sponsored locals or it's what your local shop sells? I only do sporty freeride/B&J so performance, wind range, durability (Duotone freeride sails might be a lot cheaper than Ezzy but only last half as long), ease of rigging.


Ignoring the feelings of the pros should the pwa bring back multi discipline overall champ? If so do you think it would really slow down progression in individual disciplines? I think each discipline has become quite focused. Slalom sailors would win as there are more slalom events than wave.

How important do you think pros are to gear development? Would you buy a brand developed without pro riders? Do you think brands should settle into say a 2 year cycle to have more time to develop a better sorted product? All my gear is sporty freeride/B&J so PWA has little affect, apart from paying for brand's sponsored sailors wages. I've bought mostly Exocet in the recent past and they only update boards when there are significant benefits. The Cross v4 had a run of 6 years.

If you don't follow what could the pwa & pros do to have you following/supporting them?

Replies embedded.
Also, recessed decks around the mast track in freeride/freerace gear. They add more problems than they solve. PWA derived from slalom, which might improve maxed out control, but for what I want isnt required.

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choco said..

mkseven said..
Surely gps isn't the biggest discipline.

In terms of competition participation (posting sessions)

Playing devils advocate aside for sure gps affects things, brands wouldnt be selling speed boards & sails without it. Plus it seems to have an effect on gear sought after, for example I think we saw alot more lockwood mistrals than the previous ab+ mistrals & the lockwood ones proved their performance off the bat.

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t36 said..
yes, of course I'm following PWA races.

With the 2 years corona, PA took a major hit. But than came Tiberias, Israel, the first slalom fin/windfoil combined races - with the win of Nicolas, using Phantom Windfoil stuff. The video/drone live transmission worked well and in the German Surf-forum.com have been several members looking the races and commenting online in the forum.

Could PWA keep this quality of video/droning and keeps publishing great videos like "ONE" by Nico Prien, the numbers of viewers would increase.

The win of Nicolas Goyard had a huge impact on the other riders, diminishing the future of Salom-fin-Windsurfing in more wind breezes, too, and for the companys to develop similar foisl as Phantom (as we know from Starboard 2022 - that's a very difficult task).

Foiling has affected PWA slalom, but the topic is does PWA matter.

I dont personally know of anyone using any foil kit who have gone faster (top speed) than the have with large slalom kit, 85cm board & 8.5m sail. 1 hour average speed on foil kit in light winds, maybe, I havent checked. Foiling has lowered the wind speed needed for a session, but its nothing to do with PWA. I finally decided to buy foil kit after watching IQ Foil racing from Silvaplana. I bought AHD/AFS.

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PhilUK said..

mkseven said..

Do you follow PWA at all, if so which discipline/s & any specific reason you follow or why not?

Yes, slalom and waves. Not interested in freestyle.

Do brand results matter to you?

No.

Do particular riders affect your purchasing choices No, if not what does- brand loyalty, designer, price, local performance, build quality, sponsored locals or it's what your local shop sells? I only do sporty freeride/B&J so performance, wind range, durability (Duotone freeride sails might be a lot cheaper than Ezzy but only last half as long), ease of rigging.


Ignoring the feelings of the pros should the pwa bring back multi discipline overall champ? If so do you think it would really slow down progression in individual disciplines? I think each discipline has become quite focused. Slalom sailors would win as there are more slalom events than wave.

How important do you think pros are to gear development? Would you buy a brand developed without pro riders? Do you think brands should settle into say a 2 year cycle to have more time to develop a better sorted product? All my gear is sporty freeride/B&J so PWA has little affect, apart from paying for brand's sponsored sailors wages. I've bought mostly Exocet in the recent past and they only update boards when there are significant benefits. The Cross v4 had a run of 6 years.

If you don't follow what could the pwa & pros do to have you following/supporting them?

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Also, recessed decks around the mast track in freeride/freerace gear. They add more problems than they solve. PWA derived from slalom, which might improve maxed out control, but for what I want isnt required.

What if they tiered the events for similar weighting per discipline so more equal number of points? So the old Grand slams carry maximum points, single discipline event lower points rating. Maybe it'd start to effect where they look at sailing & we could see some surf slalom again!

Somewhat agree regarding the board recesses, im a nuffy but never really noticed changing between my boards that have it & those that don't apart from it being annoyed by it on some models. & the super scooped fanatic speed i'd considered but decided against based on the size of that scoop. I wish they did the scoop more like the late 90s mistrals just a bit bigger than the deckplate, that way volume is kept & decks mostly nice & flat.

i don't follow it hardly at all, as the racing there bears little resemblance to what I do or what I am interested in. It's Giant guys racing giant sails, on really wide boards, max powered to overpowered in rough water on a downwind slalom course for only a few minutes at the time, because the way they do it is so maxed out and hard, even for the really fit, highly skilled young athletes. The gear they use and the conditions they use it in just isn't that applicable to what I like to do. I honestly could not tell you who is doing well in the PWA or what they are riding.

When was the last time you saw, much less participated in a downwind slalom race on open ocean with a boat start? For me it was in the '90's. I did a lot of flatter water slalom figure 8 though and loved it, but that was also a very long time ago in the '90's.

BUT, I am really glad they still race high wind slalom, as we would not have really fast, highly developed, small slalom boards otherwise.

As a blaster I get quite a lot from watching PWA races. I don't have any slalom gear, but, what they are doing most closely relates to the sailing I do - getting upwind, hauling downwind, gybing in rough water.

The foils aren't of much interest to me - curiosity value only.

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mkseven said..
In recent podcast Diony made a comment along the lines of no one pays attention. Got me wondering as not many guys at my local seem to follow PWA.
It certainly doesn't have the following of say formula one. but I'd argue it has a lot more relevance to windsurfing than formula one has to motoring.
Do you follow PWA at all, if so which discipline/s & any specific reason you follow or why not?
I follow slalom, because it's what I (try to) do on the water, and it's great to watch the elite do it in ideal settings I'll never be able to visit, and dream. Freestyle is impressive to watch and admire the skill involved, whilst simultaneously getting dizzy and confused.
Do brand results matter to you?
Not really, but it's nice to see a board or sail I might buy can perform at the top end of the sport.
Do particular riders affect your purchasing choices, if not what does- brand loyalty, designer, price, local performance, build quality, sponsored locals or it's what your local shop sells?
No, I tend to buy what I can walk into a shop and walk out with. Not at all a fan of ordering online, then waiting 6months for it to rock up.
Ignoring the feelings of the pros should the pwa bring back multi discipline overall champ? If so do you think it would really slow down progression in individual disciplines?
I think it would be an irrelevant title. The different disciplines require different qualities in a rider. If Gollito Iachino (yes, I made that up) won the multi discipline title, by coming first in the waves, but 5th and 6th in the freestyle and slalom, then he is really only a dominant force in the waves. He's a great all rounder, but he isn't really in the game in the other disciplines, so what's the point of the title?
How important do you think pros are to gear development? Would you buy a brand developed without pro riders? Do you think brands should settle into say a 2 year cycle to have more time to develop a better sorted product?
Very important (in slalom at least) the gear wouldn't be where it is in development today if riders didn't have to go up against each other racing for sheep stations, and then have input on what they need in a board or sail. Wanting to race and compete, I would be inclined to steer clear of a brand where there was no pwa rider input to a slalom board or sail.
If you don't follow what could the pwa & pros do to have you following/supporting them?

Replies in the balloon.

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sailquik said..

When was the last time you saw, much less participated in a downwind slalom race on open ocean with a boat start? For me it was in the '90's. I did a lot of flatter water slalom figure 8 though and loved it, but that was also a very long time ago in the '90's.

It's still very much a thing over here in WA at least. Sure, we don't race every weekend, but there's around 6 race days of short course slalom spread over summer, and a few bigger weekend style ocean events that are long course slalom.

From what I've heard/seen, there's also a decent amount of slalom racing happening on the east coast as well. I envy what Qld has going on.

Of course PWA matters. So does NASCAR, Formula 1, America's Cup, Tour de France, Olympics, FIFA, you name it. High level racing/competition is the leading edge of development. We all benefit from that development.

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segler said..
Of course PWA matters. So does NASCAR, Formula 1, America's Cup, Tour de France, Olympics, FIFA, you name it. High level racing/competition is the leading edge of development. We all benefit from that development.

Yea....nahhhh, it ain't in windsurfing anyway. It has tended to be the leading edge in marketing however, and by what you have said effectively so.

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sailquik said..
i don't follow it hardly at all, as the racing there bears little resemblance to what I do or what I am interested in. It's Giant guys racing giant sails, on really wide boards, max powered to overpowered in rough water on a downwind slalom course for only a few minutes at the time, because the way they do it is so maxed out and hard, even for the really fit, highly skilled young athletes. The gear they use and the conditions they use it in just isn't that applicable to what I like to do. I honestly could not tell you who is doing well in the PWA or what they are riding.

When was the last time you saw, much less participated in a downwind slalom race on open ocean with a boat start? For me it was in the '90's. I did a lot of flatter water slalom figure 8 though and loved it, but that was also a very long time ago in the '90's.

BUT, I am really glad they still race high wind slalom, as we would not have really fast, highly developed, small slalom boards otherwise.

My last slalom race with a boat start in open ocean was in 2015. I stopped after a mycardial infarction. Racing was fun! But at 70 Kg I have never been able to hold, say, a 7.8 in 20 knots. Still, PWA brought the sails I can manage, seemingly with no effort, in widely overpowered conditions. Even non-full-racing on sails, like my current Point-7 ACX and ACZ, are seemingly impervious to ridiculous amounts of wind and I do not think they could have been developed without the input from competition. Maybe I am wrong ...

It was great to watch the event in Cabo Verde. Ok it was not the conditions that I sail in or anything but was good to see what good sailors can actually do in those conditions.

I used to love it when wave sailing was also about high jumps etc and think its a shame that its just soo focused on the ring side of it. Its made usual day sailors do the same as the pro's and use small sails with big boards, ( which is great for float and ride conditions but not when its really blowing ) but it used to be far more full on. Think they should bring back the old format which made each rider do all three disciplines, see who's the best allrounder and at each event they would have waves, slalom and could now include freestyle.

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duzzi said..

My last slalom race with a boat start in open ocean was in 2015. I stopped after a mycardial infarction. Racing was fun! But at 70 Kg I have never been able to hold, say, a 7.8 in 20 knots. Still, PWA brought the sails I can manage, seemingly with no effort, in widely overpowered conditions. Even non-full-racing on sails, like my current Point-7 ACX and ACZ, are seemingly impervious to ridiculous amounts of wind and I do not think they could have been developed without the input from competition. Maybe I am wrong ...

Is a myocardial infarction what I think it is?

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Wind Smurf said..
It was great to watch the event in Cabo Verde. Ok it was not the conditions that I sail in or anything but was good to see what good sailors can actually do in those conditions.

I used to love it when wave sailing was also about high jumps etc and think its a shame that its just soo focused on the ring side of it. Its made usual day sailors do the same as the pro's and use small sails with big boards, ( which is great for float and ride conditions but not when its really blowing ) but it used to be far more full on. Think they should bring back the old format which made each rider do all three disciplines, see who's the best allrounder and at each event they would have waves, slalom and could now include freestyle.

Was supposed to say Ride thing but for some reason said ring thing.

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philn said..

duzzi said..

My last slalom race with a boat start in open ocean was in 2015. I stopped after a mycardial infarction. Racing was fun! But at 70 Kg I have never been able to hold, say, a 7.8 in 20 knots. Still, PWA brought the sails I can manage, seemingly with no effort, in widely overpowered conditions. Even non-full-racing on sails, like my current Point-7 ACX and ACZ, are seemingly impervious to ridiculous amounts of wind and I do not think they could have been developed without the input from competition. Maybe I am wrong ...

Is a myocardial infarction what I think it is?

Yes it is. But it did not happen while windsurfing

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mkseven said..
In recent podcast Diony made a comment along the lines of no one pays attention. Got me wondering as not many guys at my local seem to follow PWA.
i'd agree with the assessment that (at least in my neck of the woods) a small minority of windsurfers pay attention to it.
whether enough people pay attention to something or that something matters are completely different questions.

Do you follow PWA at all, if so which discipline/s & any specific reason you follow or why not?
i do, mostly slalom and some wave/freestyle action. the general reason is that i do enjoy seeing what some of the most gifted sailors can do in those disciplines (which are not all-encompassing of windsurfing in general or even windsurfing competition in particular).

Do brand results matter to you?
no; but individual results do matter more to me.

Do particular riders affect your purchasing choices, if not what does- brand loyalty, designer, price, local performance, build quality, sponsored locals or it's what your local shop sells?
neither brand nor individual results influence my purchasing choices. i look for good fit with with my needs in performance, comfort and quality. at the same time, i do tend to stick with any given brand thru several seasons; it is more efficient (sail/mast compatibilities, etc) and, at least in the windsurfing i like to do, more rewarding as an understanding of the kit and its development makes it easier to get more performance. lucky for me, i have access to a lot of different things to test and have a good sense of what works for me well, or not so well.

Ignoring the feelings of the pros should the pwa bring back multi discipline overall champ? If so do you think it would really slow down progression in individual disciplines?
i think that disciplines have become far too specialised for that happen, much as i would love to see all-around champions (and sailors like Sarah Quita-Offringa or Amado Vrieswijk get due recognition for the amazing all-around windsurfers that they are). unless this overall championship title came with a lot of prestige and money, i suspect that we would still see specialisation as we see now (in great part due to differential in body types favoured by different disciplines), and therefore no diminishing of progression in the specialised areas.

How important do you think pros are to gear development? Would you buy a brand developed without pro riders? Do you think brands should settle into say a 2 year cycle to have more time to develop a better sorted product?
i do think pro riders and competition are key to gear development. to gain an edge in competition, riders and their brands will search for stronger/faster/lighter/turnier/louder/more etc., and this quest drives innovation and improvements in gear design, materials, build methods, etc., which ultimately do percolate down to everyday-windsurfer equipment. additionally, their intensive training schedules put the equipment thru some good durability testing, which also benefits everyone.

i'm not aware of any brands that do not have "pro riders" developing its product. in this context, i don't know what "pro riders" means to you, but to me, it does not necessarily mean (though it can be) a brand-sponsored rider competing (in the PWA or other series) on that brand. to me it means a rider who is out there riding and testing and developing gear in collaboration with the designers, and doing so is part of his/her job. and no, i would not buy a product from a brand that doesn't have such riders testing and developing the product.

as for the two-year cycle. a number of brands have already adopted such a cycle primarily for the more "mainstream" (non-competition) equipment. and more should, in more lines, i think. doing so does give the brand an adequate enough timeframe for the feedback loop from consumers to occur and hopefully incorporate needed improvements or better aggregate things learned from the development of competition kit. even in competition-kit, not every size of a line is changed every year. for example on iSonics, a casual reading of the current page will easily inform a reader which sizes have changed from last year to this one. i think that sort of transparency is what we need more of!


If you don't follow what could the pwa & pros do to have you following/supporting them?

answers in the bubble

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Subsonic said..

sailquik said..

When was the last time you saw, much less participated in a downwind slalom race on open ocean with a boat start? For me it was in the '90's. I did a lot of flatter water slalom figure 8 though and loved it, but that was also a very long time ago in the '90's.

It's still very much a thing over here in WA at least. Sure, we don't race every weekend, but there's around 6 race days of short course slalom spread over summer, and a few bigger weekend style ocean events that are long course slalom.

From what I've heard/seen, there's also a decent amount of slalom racing happening on the east coast as well. I envy what Qld has going on.

Yes. I thought there ware a few slalom type races in WA. That seems to be the last holdout.

Zero slalom racing in Victoria for a very long time!

Have heard of nothing in SA, NSW or Qld but it might be happening in secret.

I know Qld and NSW have a few GPS races, but I dont think thats really the same thing.

Nothing against it. It can be great fun and I certainly loved it in the 90's, but it needs commitment and organisers. WA seems to have a bit of that.

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duzzi said..
My last slalom race with a boat start in open ocean was in 2015.

Where? What country?

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sailquik said..

duzzi said..
My last slalom race with a boat start in open ocean was in 2015.

Where? What country?

I think Duzzi sails on San Francisco bay

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sailquik said..
When was the last time you saw, much less participated in a downwind slalom race on open ocean with a boat start?
Have heard of nothing in SA, NSW or Qld but it might be happening in secret. .

In NSW Marmong Point Sailing club run a six event summer series of GPS and Slalom events.
There are several formats offered ranging from GPS to Figure 8 and downwind slalom.
Downwind slalom is considered by the top sailors to be the ultimate format, but requires two boats and consistent wind.

Whilst the events are not secret, generally they do not attract interstate competitors as regularly the events need to be postponed or cancelled due to lack of wind.

To the answer the original question.
I have never watched any PWA racing, not the slightest bit interested. But I don't watch any sport, would much rather participate.