I am free riding and not racing - what are the benefits of foil specific sails ?

At what stage in your progression do you benefit the most from them ?

like most new foiler i am using wave sail (max 5.6 )

was thinking of foil sail around 6 for the lighter days

There are some possible benefits but 99% of the time your normal kit will do the trick.

If you get a normal sail then you can use it on your slapper as well.

If your current 5.6 wave sail is the biggest, you won't gain much until you get something around a 7 or bigger. I go from a 7.7 freeride 2 cam to a 5.4 wave sail in my quiver.

Pros of a "foil" sail (generalized): lighter weight, shorter boom length, often (7 and above) cams to stabilize the profile and help the bottom end, higher aspect, relatively tighter leach. Most of these characteristics tend to aid sailing in light winds and level flight. Others take advantage of the steadier sailing platform and lower drag at foil speeds.

Cons: Lighter weight and less structure mean possible shorter life and limit use in very powered up conditions on a regular board.

If you want/need a dual purpose sail, a lot of freeride cammed sails do quite nicely. You can foil on slalom sails, no cams, etc but as you begin to step away from the foil concept you start to give up things. Slalom sails will be a bit heavier and the looser leach doesn't really help. No cams often don't pump as well and may have less low end power when they can't maintain their draft.

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normster said..
I am free riding and not racing - what are the benefits of foil specific sails ?

At what stage in your progression do you benefit the most from them ?

like most new foiler i am using wave sail (max 5.6 )

was thinking of foil sail around 6 for the lighter days

As Paducah says. I had an e-mail exchange with Andrea Cucchi (the owner of Point-7) and he was quite adamant saying that foil specific sails are just marketing, and you only have benefits for the largest sizes, he quoted 8.0 and above in a racing environment. If you have a 5.6 get at least one meter bigger, maybe a two cam? But I am doing very well with a no-cam 6.5 (Point-7 ACX). (It is as solid as a rock when overpowered on my slalom but ... it is never sailed overpowered with the foil!)

Use what ya got mate. Perhaps consider a bigger front wing and/or a sail in the low 6 meter range to get the most of the light days with out going to the huge gear.

I agree. Use whatcha got. It will work just fine for 99% of your foiling. Cam, no-cam, light, heavy, whatever. My foiling quiver is a big mashup of late 90s stuff all the way to almost new. Cam and no-cam, light, heavy...it all works.

Let's say that most sails work in foiling but having just went from "regular" sails to foiling sails I have to say it is a big difference. I went from Gun Sails Vector (3 cam), Neilpryde V8 (2 cam), Gun Sails Torro, North Sails X-type to Ezzy Hydra Pro's. All sails are named as pretty good with foiling. And they are, especially the Neilpryde V8 (7.2 and below).

The Ezzy's are much lighter than the Vectors, lighter than the others. They have a much better low end than others, pumping is really from a different planet, similar high end as the cammed sails, much more stable than the no cam sails. I'm using a freerace foil with a freefoil board and a race foilboard. If you use a Supercruiser like foil things might be different but I have no experience with those.
Also I noticed my "skills" instantly get better switching from a normal board to a foil board, and from a normal sail to a foil sail.

I'd say go with what you have, but Robertos has a good point about "pumpability". I have an older 5.0 FS sail that I can pump a lot better than a newer 5.6 FS sail from a different brand, so the 5.0 has at least the same bottom end for me. Some other sails that I like a lot for windsurfing don't work quite as well for foiling, sometimes in non-intuitive ways (one sail I almost hate windsurfing turned out to be great for foiling). I'm on freeride foils (SS 76 and 84) and an old slalom board most of the time. Most sails I use for foiling are no-cam.

I race foils so for me the change to full foiling sails gives me more power to get on the foils earlier and they're more stable once flying.

Normster, I used wavesails when getting started on foiling. I wanted to get out in lighter winds. Initially used 5.3 and 6m wavesails and was going in 13-15 knots. Wanted to avoid big sails too. After a year, bought a Naish Lift 5.7. It's light and simple to rig, but pricey for what you get. Found it had a heap of grunt at the low end. Could pump the foil up really effectively in lighter winds. My threshold is down to around 10-11 knots now. It's definitely got more get up and go in lighter conditions than a regular wavesail of similar size, but also doesn't have the top end. It gets overpowered above 15 knots and becomes a bit of a handful.
I think the foil specific sails do lower the threshold for getting going compared to a regular sail, so it depends on how much you want to outlay.

Race foil sails defiantly give you an advantage in pointing ability, and with 8,9,10m you have a lot of sail to get you going in light winds. That being said you also really need to pair them with a big board and race foil otherwise the balance is off. Think about what you want to get out of your foiling first, then see if the kit you have will do that or if your problems can be solved though tuning your gear. I found borrowing a 100% mast made a big difference in light winds and the sail was much more responsive so got one which then sees use foiling and in normal conditions so was a better investment than a foiling sail.

I'm freeride foiling and use a Severne Foil Glide 7m. Read the guff about it on the Severne website. It's all they say and more. I now can't imagine using any other sail. Its super lightweight. It pumps easily on to the foil in 10 knots, and it's so easy to handle, I've used it comfortably in 25 knot gusts. It has two cams and four battens. Look at the photos on the website - sets with a beautiful shape, very stable. Fast to rig on a RDM mast, easy cam rotation. I found that no matter the wind, light or heavy, downhaul and outhaul are best in exactly the same postion.

Ben was out on a proto 5.4 m no cam sail today with his Alien 105 board and metal foil. Think it had a 95cm fuselage.

He was planing before anyone in 5 to 15 knots. Hugely impressed by how early he got it going considering the size of the sail. Guessing in around 9 knots. He did have to pump the sail real hard though.

He was also making the gybes look so smooth and effortless which is probably not down to the gear.

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LGF said..
I'm freeride foiling and use a Severne Foil Glide 7m. Read the guff about it on the Severne website. It's all they say and more. I now can't imagine using any other sail. Its super lightweight. It pumps easily on to the foil in 10 knots, and it's so easy to handle, I've used it comfortably in 25 knot gusts. It has two cams and four battens. Look at the photos on the website - sets with a beautiful shape, very stable. Fast to rig on a RDM mast, easy cam rotation. I found that no matter the wind, light or heavy, downhaul and outhaul are best in exactly the same postion.

I definitely agree on the Foilglide 7.0, I got one a few weeks ago and love it. Quick to rig, light, very stable, rotates easily, pumps very well. Most importantly, it sails beautifully even when a bit overpowered.

Yep, love the Severne Foil Glide 7.0, mine is on SDM. Easy to put cambers on mast, rotates easily, is powerful and light. Tried it in 5mph tonight and got a few "up on foils" going in the maybe 9mph "gusts"

Thanks to Paducah and North Beach Windsurfing for getting me on to it.

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oscardog said..
Yep, love the Severne Foil Glide 7.0, mine is on SDM. Easy to put cambers on mast, rotates easily, is powerful and light. Tried it in 5mph tonight and got a few "up on foils" going in the maybe 9mph "gusts"

Thanks to Paducah and North Beach Windsurfing for getting me on to it.

Hush... Now, I want one, too. Glad it worked out for you. Thanks for the shout out to the crew at NB.

The 7m is 3.6kgs.

www.severnesails.com/sails/foil-glide/

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petermac33 said..
The 7m is 3.6kgs.

www.severnesails.com/sails/foil-glide/

Yep, for comparison the Severne Mach2 7.0 is about 5.2 kg, so the Foilglide is 1.6 kg lighter.

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oscardog said..
Yep, love the Severne Foil Glide 7.0, mine is on SDM. Easy to put cambers on mast, rotates easily, is powerful and light. Tried it in 5mph tonight and got a few "up on foils" going in the maybe 9mph "gusts"

Thanks to Paducah and North Beach Windsurfing for getting me on to it.

Yep have one as well .. a super light really easy to use foil sail - highly recommend - rotation is Effortless.

I think if you are struggling on your existing sails (lots of breaching, getting OP'd easily), it may speed up the learning process by going to a foiling sail as they may be more conducive to foiling than some types of sails.

Switching to naish lifts from my old freeride sails certainly made a big difference for me, now I am back on a different set of wave sails, esp for high wind, and they are great, but my skills are much better now so its hard know how they would have been for me at the beginning.Are foil sails necessary? no. But some sails will not work well for foiling...whereas most foiling sails do

I have a Naish lift 5.7 and a Simmer Black Tip 5.6. Although the sails are almost the same size the Lift is more likely the equivalent of a 6.5 - 7.0 wave sail without the weight. The lift is light and very pumpable but does get over powered quite early. You can link gusts together to keep on the foil whereas the Blacktip needs wind. As soon as the wind drops it feels dead. Pumping just disturbs any flow and kills the speed.
I did have a 6.4m Blacktip last year but it was heavy and actually needed a lot of wind to get it going as it was so stiff it didn't seem to have any grunt unless it was very under down hauled which just made it feel yuk.
I would say Foil specific helps in the lighter and fluky winds. Anything will work if you have steady stronger wind.

I also have the 6.4 Lift but I do feel the 5.7 is more responsive to pumping and is more manoeuvrable so I rarely use the 6.4m any more.

my i99 and 5.7 gets me up in 12mph quite nicely with a bit of effort but feels very light and responsive whereas the 6.4 feels almost draggy with the long boom.

Agree with Heli re low end of the lifts. I usually go with the lift for the big wing (i99). If its marginal I may go 4.7 Lift over the 4.7 wave sail (HSM SFME) on the i76

For the lift i have found they work best for me with higher boom than normal to compensate for low clew (this leaves my harness lines in the normal vertical position relative to my body) and adding 10-12 cm to the recommended boom measures

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Pacey said..

LGF said..
I'm freeride foiling and use a Severne Foil Glide 7m. Read the guff about it on the Severne website. It's all they say and more. I now can't imagine using any other sail. Its super lightweight. It pumps easily on to the foil in 10 knots, and it's so easy to handle, I've used it comfortably in 25 knot gusts. It has two cams and four battens. Look at the photos on the website - sets with a beautiful shape, very stable. Fast to rig on a RDM mast, easy cam rotation. I found that no matter the wind, light or heavy, downhaul and outhaul are best in exactly the same postion.

I definitely agree on the Foilglide 7.0, I got one a few weeks ago and love it. Quick to rig, light, very stable, rotates easily, pumps very well. Most importantly, it sails beautifully even when a bit overpowered.

Severne foilglide 7.0 my first time using it , on rdm, easy and stable, great low end, super easy pumping, and way better in strong gusts than I was expecting (my 90+kg helps) - BIG gains vs. my Overdrive 7.0 if breeze is lighter/gusty

Hey Peter, are you using a 460 rdm with the 7.0 ? Or are you extending a 430 rdm ?

Wave sails will work just fine but I really like having a foil sail to give me more low end power at a smaller sail. Really enjoying my 5.8 Duotone F-type. The cams are easy to rig and give me a lot of great low end power and I don't sacrifice control when the wind picks up.

DC

great - good info thanks

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segler said..
Hey Peter, are you using a 460 rdm with the 7.0 ? Or are you extending a 430 rdm ?

using 460 Gorilla rdm, works just fine, sail pumps so easily - would have liked a lighter/more $$$ mast, even I notice the quicker responsiveness, but not available on the day - I reckon 430 would be fine for lighter winds/lighter sailors (i'm 90++kg), cams rotate so sweet I doubt that would suffer, but (Severne) foil sails generally seem to be going toward stiffer masts...... to get top end stability, 460 would be better

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Adam555 said..

oscardog said..
Yep, love the Severne Foil Glide 7.0, mine is on SDM. Easy to put cambers on mast, rotates easily, is powerful and light. Tried it in 5mph tonight and got a few "up on foils" going in the maybe 9mph "gusts"

Thanks to Paducah and North Beach Windsurfing for getting me on to it.

Yep have one as well .. a super light really easy to use foil sail - highly recommend - rotation is Effortless.

Hi guys, I have been foiling with a Severne 5.5 "waivy style" and a North 7. Both old.
I like the look of those Severne Foilglide, thinking of a 6m2 to compromise with the wind available. I am less than 70kg, Starboard iSonic 117L and NP Glide 2020 foil S. Foiling ok (12sessions last summer).

Could be ok with a 6m2 (2 cams) ?
Would it be ok with an old 460 mast and old boom or it is not worth the investment ?

In fact I am getting confused with (on the same day), half the foilers on formula boards with 8/9 m2 and the other half with tiny sails and still having fun flights...
Thanks.

I guess all answers are good and I realized that everyone has a different objectives with foiling. Some wants to race and go fast, some want to foil in 8 knts...some want a no brainer for light wind. I have a strapless board (JP SUP FOIL) and go foil without an harness with my 5.2 wave sail. I still can't figure out what is really 12 kts looks like but I thing my sessions starts as soon as there gusts at around 12-13 kts. ;-)
It's like going surfing without a leash.

I wanted to reduce the quiver...now please no more how goods are those new foil specific sails are...this will break my paradigm. ;-)
Nr

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NordRoi said..
I guess all answers are good and I realized that everyone has a different objectives with foiling. Some wants to race and go fast, some want to foil in 8 knts...some want a no brainer for light wind. I have a strapless board (JP SUP FOIL) and go foil without an harness with my 5.2 wave sail. I still can't figure out what is really 12 kts looks like but I thing my sessions starts as soon as there gusts at around 12-13 kts. ;-)
It's like going surfing without a leash.

I wanted to reduce the quiver...now please no more how goods are those new foil specific sails are...this will break my paradigm. ;-)
Nr

Don't worry ... at least one major sail maker who I am aware of (Point-7) indicates that foil specific sails are only useful in competition AND in sizes 8.0 or above. Neil Pryde? I see the F4 development guys regularly at my local spot. They go out daily or so in 15-25 knots conditions using a NP 7.0 EVO XI racing sail (a slalom sail, often seen in the Bay used by slalom guys). The only NP foil specific sails are racing sails in size 8.0-9.0 and 10.0.

So pick a sail exactly as you would for a windsurf. If you sail powered up/overpowered you pick a sail that comes to life in those conditions, otherwise you pick a sail that as a good low end. And there are plenty sails do both.

Foil should make windsurfing easier: say no to double quivers!

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duzzi said..

NordRoi said..
I guess all answers are good and I realized that everyone has a different objectives with foiling. Some wants to race and go fast, some want to foil in 8 knts...some want a no brainer for light wind. I have a strapless board (JP SUP FOIL) and go foil without an harness with my 5.2 wave sail. I still can't figure out what is really 12 kts looks like but I thing my sessions starts as soon as there gusts at around 12-13 kts. ;-)
It's like going surfing without a leash.

I wanted to reduce the quiver...now please no more how goods are those new foil specific sails are...this will break my paradigm. ;-)
Nr

Don't worry ... at least one major sail maker who I am aware of (Point-7) indicates that foil specific sails are only useful in competition AND in sizes 8.0 or above. Neil Pryde? I see the F4 development guys regularly at my local spot. They go out daily or so in 15-25 knots conditions using a NP 7.0 EVO XI racing sail (a slalom sail, often seen in the Bay used by slalom guys). The only NP foil specific sails are racing sails in size 8.0-9.0 and 10.0.

So pick a sail exactly as you would for a windsurf. If you sail powered up/overpowered you pick a sail that comes to life in those conditions, otherwise you pick a sail that as a good low end. And there are plenty sails do both.

Foil should make windsurfing easier: say no to double quivers!

Yeah i cant agree with that one sorry mate. I use the NP Evo Flight 7 metre foil specific sail all the time in anything above 14 knots and it is much better than my NP Evo Slalom 7 metre for foiling. Its much more stable and suits the foil much better. You can get away with a slalom sail on foils, but the foil specific sails are better in my opinion. I use the 8 Metre NP Evo flight in under 15 knots.