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XYZ said..

I have earned Ph.D. in engineering from the top world school and worked in aerospace for several global companies for over 30 years. And you...?

There's a contradiction here. You apparently want us to believe your expertise because of your qualifications and background - and yet you want us to ignore other experts with even better qualifications or background when it comes to wingsails.

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Chris 249 said..

XYZ said..

I have earned Ph.D. in engineering from the top world school and worked in aerospace for several global companies for over 30 years. And you...?

There's a contradiction here. You apparently want us to believe your expertise because of your qualifications and background - and yet you want us to ignore other experts with even better qualifications or background when it comes to wingsails.

That would probably be the Dunning-Kruger effect .

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Al Planet said..

That would probably be the Dunning-Kruger effect .

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Chris 249 said..

XYZ said..

I have earned Ph.D. in engineering from the top world school and worked in aerospace for several global companies for over 30 years. And you...?

There's a contradiction here. You apparently want us to believe your expertise because of your qualifications and background - and yet you want us to ignore other experts with even better qualifications or background when it comes to wingsails.

Chris, I am just answering a question here. Somebody asked about my education and I answered. There is not contradiction here. My education is real and it benefited me all my life. The person who asked could just do it privately. I assume the person who asked me to introduce myself from education prospective opted out of commenting on his own education. Impolite.
You are correct. As an engineer I am ignoring other personalities in favor of engineering facts. I am here because I am looking for information and I am willing to exchange the information. There is nothing personal here unless you criticize engineers. Note, I never criticized used car salesmen here.
If you have any questions that you think I claimed and did not bring enough reasoning please just ask.
Thank you for reading my posts and commenting.

XYZ
just ask away with your engineering questions.
Maybe you have some questions that don't show a bias or appear to talk down other brands.

the worst way to make money as a salesman (car or whatever) is to bad mouth the opposition.

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XYZ said..

Chris 249 said..

XYZ said..

I have earned Ph.D. in engineering from the top world school and worked in aerospace for several global companies for over 30 years. And you...?

There's a contradiction here. You apparently want us to believe your expertise because of your qualifications and background - and yet you want us to ignore other experts with even better qualifications or background when it comes to wingsails.

Chris, I am just answering a question here. Somebody asked about my education and I answered. There is not contradiction here. My education is real and it benefited me all my life. The person who asked could just do it privately. I assume the person who asked me to introduce myself from education prospective opted out of commenting on his own education. Impolite.
You are correct. As an engineer I am ignoring other personalities in favor of engineering facts. I am here because I am looking for information and I am willing to exchange the information. There is nothing personal here unless you criticize engineers. Note, I never criticized used car salesmen here.
If you have any questions that you think I claimed and did not bring enough reasoning please just ask.
Thank you for reading my posts and commenting.

I am not an engineer XYZ.

Some of your comments earlier on contradicted common knowledge, things an engineer should know. This left me pondering if you actually were one. It appears though you are indeed just another overly cautious and strange thinking engineer.

I think in hindsight perhaps you simply made the comments to try to further put down another brand in favour of frp. You wouldnt be the first engineer ive come across with a superiority complex.

I sailed today on the river in winds according to the graph averaging 8 to 12 knots with the occassional 15 knot gust.

There were three hydrofoil sailors with what looked like sails of around the 7.8m size.

I was on my 8m sail and 135 Patrik with a 50 fin.

I planed perhaps 10 percent of the time,the three hydrofoil sailors similar.

One of them was going a touch earlier than me,the other two I could plane earlier.

However,there were two hydrofoil kites that showed up and both were planing pretty much non stop!

In the 6 or so months I've been watching hydrofoil windsurfers I have yet to see one plane consistently in winds of 10 knots.

No question they plane a bit earlier for the same sail size than a standard windsurfer......but there is not much in it.

The main differences / advantages are a different feel and much better performance upwind and downwind.

As for Robby Naish planing in 6-10 knots with a 4.7m - today proved to me that is not true.

The wind in his video was likely around 12-14 knots.

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petermac33 said..
I sailed today on the river in winds according to the graph averaging 8 to 12 knots with the occassional 15 knot gust.

There were three hydrofoil sailors with what looked like sails of around the 7.8m size.

I was on my 8m sail and 135 Patrik with a 50 fin.

I planed perhaps 10 percent of the time,the three hydrofoil sailors similar.

One of them was going a touch earlier than me,the other two I could plane earlier.

However,there were two hydrofoil kites that showed up and both were planing pretty much non stop!

In the 6 or so months I've been watching hydrofoil windsurfers I have yet to see one plane consistently in winds of 10 knots.

No question they plane a bit earlier for the same sail size than a standard windsurfer......but there is not much in it.

The main differences / advantages are a different feel and much better performance upwind and downwind.

As for Robby Naish planing in 6-10 knots with a 4.7m - today proved to me that is not true.

The wind in his video was likely around 12-14 knots.

I have had absolutely the same observations. You can fly a little sooner on a special high wing span hydrofoil (not on Naish design). But if wind increases to 15 knots you have to use a normal foil because the light wind foil becomes no good.
Please allow me to explain more what is going on inside " Naish Light Wind Hydro foiling Explained." The minimum take off speed for Naish foil is 14 knots. Based on the open sails on all the Naish videos the wind speed is over 14 knots. I do not believe that somebody like Naish cannot tell the difference between 10 and 14 knots. This is why I get offended by "Naish Light Wind Explained" and other Naish promotional videos for one single reason: Naish assumes we are all not smart so he can easy trick us. When you have been dishonest with me ones it will take much time and effort for you to earn reputation again.
As a consumer I support any critics towards to the manufacturers because it benefits my bottom line: manufacturers reduce price and I, consumer, win. I do not see a reason why someone here would prevent an argument between the manufacturers unless you want to benefit these manufacturers. The more manufacturers compete against each other the lower price we will be paying as consumers. The current minimum price for a hydrofoil from Naish is as high as $650.00 and Naish is misleading me on performance of his foil in intention to collect the $650 from me without offering me a return option. This is why I do not like Naish because Naish wants my money while talking B.S. about making windsurfing popular again.
On the other side we have rivals like frpgear and MW Sails. It is our best interest as consumers to support the new manufacturers in order to get more competition that result in price reduction and product improvement. For example, I am looking at new frpgear hydrofoil for under $400 with option to return for a refund made 100% out of Fiber Reinforced Plastic.
http://frpgear.com/frpgear-fly-board.html
I do not know how much forums like this influenced such of good deal. But I think if we all unite towards supporting good and honest competition we could have hydrofiols on the market for under $200.00. My practical suggestion is to get these manufacturers on our forum and talk to them honestly and openly. I see FRPGear and MW Sails are already here and already talking to us, real and experienced customers. Naish and Co should come up here from his hiding hole and stand his grounds on questionable video publications targeting us.

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XYZ said..

petermac33 said..
I sailed today on the river in winds according to the graph averaging 8 to 12 knots with the occassional 15 knot gust.

There were three hydrofoil sailors with what looked like sails of around the 7.8m size.

I was on my 8m sail and 135 Patrik with a 50 fin.

I planed perhaps 10 percent of the time,the three hydrofoil sailors similar.

One of them was going a touch earlier than me,the other two I could plane earlier.

However,there were two hydrofoil kites that showed up and both were planing pretty much non stop!

In the 6 or so months I've been watching hydrofoil windsurfers I have yet to see one plane consistently in winds of 10 knots.

No question they plane a bit earlier for the same sail size than a standard windsurfer......but there is not much in it.

The main differences / advantages are a different feel and much better performance upwind and downwind.

As for Robby Naish planing in 6-10 knots with a 4.7m - today proved to me that is not true.

The wind in his video was likely around 12-14 knots.

I have had absolutely the same observations. You can fly a little sooner on a special high wing span hydrofoil (not on Naish design). But if wind increases to 15 knots you have to use a normal foil because the light wind foil becomes no good.
Please allow me to explain more what is going on inside " Naish Light Wind Hydro foiling Explained." The minimum take off speed for Naish foil is 14 knots. Based on the open sails on all the Naish videos the wind speed is over 14 knots. I do not believe that somebody like Naish cannot tell the difference between 10 and 14 knots. This is why I get offended by "Naish Light Wind Explained" and other Naish promotional videos for one single reason: Naish assumes we are all not smart so he can easy trick us. When you have been dishonest with me ones it will take much time and effort for you to earn reputation again.
As a consumer I support any critics towards to the manufacturers because it benefits my bottom line: manufacturers reduce price and I, consumer, win. I do not see a reason why someone here would prevent an argument between the manufacturers unless you want to benefit these manufacturers. The more manufacturers compete against each other the lower price we will be paying as consumers. The current minimum price for a hydrofoil from Naish is as high as $650.00 and Naish is misleading me on performance of his foil in intention to collect the $650 from me without offering me a return option. This is why I do not like Naish because Naish wants my money while talking B.S. about making windsurfing popular again.
On the other side we have rivals like frpgear and MW Sails. It is our best interest as consumers to support the new manufacturers in order to get more competition that result in price reduction and product improvement. For example, I am looking at new frpgear hydrofoil for under $400 with option to return for a refund made 100% out of Fiber Reinforced Plastic.
http://frpgear.com/frpgear-fly-board.html
I do not know how much forums like this influenced such of good deal. But I think if we all unite towards supporting good and honest competition we could have hydrofiols on the market for under $200.00. My practical suggestion is to get these manufacturers on our forum and talk to them honestly and openly. I see FRPGear and MW Sails are already here are already talking to us, their valuable customers. Naish and Co should come up here from his hiding spot and stand his grounds on questionable video publications before his customers.

...And you are saying Naish is dishonest... Hilarious!

Libelous shill account. Reported to the mods. It was amusing when he was just wrong but now besmirching without foundation the reputation of a company that has a long track record of good products and supporting the industry.

www.seabreeze.com.au/TermsOfService

6. MEMBER CONDUCT (defamation and misrepresentation of affiliation)

For those of you who actually windfoil Naish foil, 7.0 sail, winds 5-8 kts (love this guy)

Paducah, I think that video above shows that what Naish are saying IS possible, and that Naish are not lying. I think the issue we have here is a confusion about what level of ability you have to have to be able to sail foils in very light conditions, and people's estimates of wind speed. I suspect to sail in the video above, the sailor has quite a lot of foiling experience and a fair degree of talent (which I don't). In much the same way, when Robby heads out on his foil in 6-10 knots and gets up and going, he has a lot of experience and talent and maybe uses the gust of 10 knots to get up and going. I can get going in around 12 knots with a 5.5m sail and am chuffed. Dtrop the wind speed to 10 knots and I don't have the talent to fly the foil.
XYZ, you say below "Please allow me to explain more what is going on inside " Naish Light Wind Hydro foiling Explained." The minimum take off speed for Naish foil is 14 knots. Based on the open sails on all the Naish videos the wind speed is over 14 knots." I would disagree that the wind speeds that I have used my foil in need to be 14 knots +. I have definitely foiled in less than 14 knots (measure with an wind meter and also by Met Bureau observations) on the Naish. Previous videos are showing sailors in a range on wind speeds, and I realise it's hard to judge wind speed off a video, but some of the estimates seem a bit way off. I would suggest that the wind speed in the video above is a lot less than 14 knots.
My limited experience of the Naish foil is that it is a little less efficient than the Slingshot and can't point upwind quite as high, but is easier to sail than the Slingshot.

www.facebook.com/windfoilzone/videos/887443221454122/
there is almost 40% more sail area on the formula board.

its obvious there are sailors above in this thread who haven't yet foiled. IMO their opinions and critique are of little value as they have made assumptions.
I for one prefer 10kn of wind to foil in, its pretty much perfect for me.It seems everyone has a slightly diff idea of what 10knots is...
after nearly 47 years of continuous sailing (dinghys and windsurfers) I have spent a fair amount of time watching the wind on the water and as such I am pretty confident what is 10knots.
In any case the thing that observers can't see and may not be aware of is that foil wings come in various sizes and styles.
when you judge a foiler from a distance you can see the sail size but you can't see the foil size nor would you know how the setup has been tuned. Mast position,strap position and rear stabiliser angle are absolutely critical to the quality of flight.
These adjustments are far more critical (apart from the foil) than any adjustment you may make on slalom kit.
Wind speed is one thing, and yes it obviously helps the flight...
however it's important to know that speed of the foil through the water is actually what makes the thing work.
i recon 8knots of hull speed is what I need to get flying.obviously wing size and style plays a big factor here.
i have seen crew struggle to fly in 15knots due to various factors.
There is no question in my mind that Windfoil will work in winds
where conventional windsurfers can't.
i can foil all the time in consistent 10knors I can actually fly through lulls to 5knots as long as they aren't more than a hundred meters apart.
Apologies for the lack of caps.

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petermac33 said..
I sailed today on the river in winds according to the graph averaging 8 to 12 knots with the occassional 15 knot gust.

There were three hydrofoil sailors with what looked like sails of around the 7.8m size.

I was on my 8m sail and 135 Patrik with a 50 fin.

I planed perhaps 10 percent of the time,the three hydrofoil sailors similar.

One of them was going a touch earlier than me,the other two I could plane earlier.

However,there were two hydrofoil kites that showed up and both were planing pretty much non stop!

In the 6 or so months I've been watching hydrofoil windsurfers I have yet to see one plane consistently in winds of 10 knots.

No question they plane a bit earlier for the same sail size than a standard windsurfer......but there is not much in it.

The main differences / advantages are a different feel and much better performance upwind and downwind.

As for Robby Naish planing in 6-10 knots with a 4.7m - today proved to me that is not true.

The wind in his video was likely around 12-14 knots.

Why make such a bold assertion without personal experience?
I reckon Robby could easily have got foiling in about 8 knots utilizing his skill-set (not inconsiderable) and by picking up a small swell.


Last Sunday at Melville I was sailing around with Matt Holder a fair amount.
Everyone would agree that Matt can out-sail me any day of the week.
Matt had an 8.6 rigged - I had a 6m with Naish WS1 foil.
When the wind was around 10-14 knots I would easily get going sooner than Matt and easily pass him.
Above 14 or so knots Matt would pass me easily.

Why not try foiling and then tell us all about it?

snides8. Agree with what you say. Gear and tuning is critical. It took me a few months and probably 30+ sessions to get everything sorted as well as myself. I can get up and going in 8 knots with a 5.5 wave sail on Naish, Slingshot, Pryde carbon, Fanatic, Moses but all using foil specific boards. Foil positioning is critical, for example, I have used the Naish foil on a Starboard Futura where the fin box was in the standard postition and had to move my back foot behind the strap to get it going (to much weight forward) but when I immediately swapped to the Fanatic foil that projects the foil forward the board came straight up. I have also given up using my 6.5 as it was heavier and harder to pump and gave me no advantage in lighter winds. I prefer narrow boards as well as I can pump foil up and through the lulls where as the wider boards make this really hard with the weight out so far. I also find that with the narrower board and a large front wing in 12 to 15 knots I can pump the board directly onto the foil from a standing start with basically no board speed.
Foils are also like fins in as you need different wings for different conditions.
I also questioned the Naish ability in light winds until I gained more experience and learnt that it was me and not the gear.
I like to say to people, that foiling in windsurfing is so new that there are no long term experts, no body has tried all the gear and combinations, riding styles so just get a foil, get out on the water because the only way to learn and find out is time on the water.
PS, if you are not prepared to up-haul and pump the sail and board hard maybe light wind foiling is not for you.

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petermac33 said..
I sailed today on the river in winds according to the graph averaging 8 to 12 knots with the occassional 15 knot gust.

There were three hydrofoil sailors with what looked like sails of around the 7.8m size.

I was on my 8m sail and 135 Patrik with a 50 fin.

I planed perhaps 10 percent of the time,the three hydrofoil sailors similar.

One of them was going a touch earlier than me,the other two I could plane earlier.

However,there were two hydrofoil kites that showed up and both were planing pretty much non stop!

In the 6 or so months I've been watching hydrofoil windsurfers I have yet to see one plane consistently in winds of 10 knots.

No question they plane a bit earlier for the same sail size than a standard windsurfer......but there is not much in it.

The main differences / advantages are a different feel and much better performance upwind and downwind.

As for Robby Naish planing in 6-10 knots with a 4.7m - today proved to me that is not true.

The wind in his video was likely around 12-14 knots.

I thought that was you Pete, and to correct your guesstimate, I had a 7 metre on and foiled past you while you were going nowhere when the breeze was probably barely 10 knots. I also only had a small foil on compared to the bigger wings like a Naish or a NP Glide, so that shows even more what a foil can do in light winds with smaller sails. I wouldn't have had much luck getting going in ten knots on my 85 wide racing board with an 8.6 if I wasn't using foils. Maybe you should try it yourself so you can see what all the fuss is about. :)

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XYZ said..
Somehow when they tell us we landed on Moon we believe and then they hide all the videos and pictures from public.
..
My engineering preliminary conclusion that Naish measured 11-13 knots but reported 6-10 to the public.

Gotta love engineers trying to prove a negative.

I have seen very good windsurfers trying with some foil experience try to foil in 10 knots with large sails (~8 m), and fail. That proves absolutely nothing.

I have seen another windsurfer foil on a 4.7, 72 cm wide board, and a "standard" foil in 12 knots. That did not even seem to be the lower end of the gear for him, he got going quickly and was up close to 100% of the time. He claims to be able to foil in 6-8 knots on with a larger sail, board, and foil. While I have not seen this happen, I am quite sure he is not exaggerating.

Can Robby Naish foil on Naish gear in 6-10 knots? You bet! Check the pictures and report in the German Surf magazine, issue 8/2018. There are several pictures of Robby foiling with no white cap in sight. If you've ever been to Lake Garda (I have), you know that's less than 10 knots of wind. There's a photo series showing Robby foiling through an Upwind 360, also with no white cap in sight. There's another photo series showing Robby getting up on the foil in similar conditions from almost standing with a single pump.

Back in the late 70s/early 80s, many windsurfers thought it was almost impossible to sail a "sinker", and most of them would have bet their engineering diplomas (if they had one) on the fact that uphauling on a sinker is impossible. Until there were videos of Robby uphauling in mast-high waves at Ho'okipa, sinking down to his hips.

But an engineer who refuses to use a harness certainly knows better that the guys who we can thank for the invention of the spreader bar because his 12-year old chest was being squeezed to much by the hook of the chest harness (if you believe https://wikivividly.com/wiki/Windsurfing_harness).

Here's the picture of the "one-pump to foil" story:
The headline says "Mit Hop und Gabel Hoch - aus den Stand aufs Foil" (roughly translates to "from standing (still) onto the foil"). The text calls this move "unglaublich" (unbelievable) and describes "Nahezu in Zeitlupe duempelt Robby neben unsure Boot" (almost in slow motion Robby bobs (slogs) next to our boat).
It can be done (disproving negatives is easy :-). Does not mean everybody can do it.

I am not in any way having a go at hydrofoil windsurfing,I actually think it's brought a new sense of excitement to the sport. It certainly looks spectacular.

The ability to get going in a knot or two less wind is the difference for many in packing the car or not,it is for myself anyway.

The vast majority of the wind yesterday was likely less than 10 knots so perhaps that was the problem.

Yesterday again confirmed to me that Hydrofoil kites are by far King for early planning.

The difference in planing threshold is at least two knots difference over a hydrofoil windsurfer and around four knots difference over a standard windsurfer.

Could Robby Naish have planed half the time yesterday on a 4.7m?

I would be truly amazed

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petermac33 said..
Could Robby Naish have planed half the time yesterday on a 4.7m?
I would be truly amazed

Yeah, he probably couldn't have planed - but he could've foiled

Source: www.surf-magazin.de/magazin/surf-82018

LOL XYZ/Stepan/Anton having a try on the french forum....
www.windsurfing33.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=42&t=113208

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seanhogan said..
LOL XYZ/Stepan/Anton having a try on the french forum....
www.windsurfing33.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=42&t=113208

I've been watching with amusement. I'm sure he'll get the standard Gallic reception

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seanhogan said..
LOL XYZ/Stepan/Anton having a try on the french forum....
www.windsurfing33.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=42&t=113208

Thank you for the link to the French forum.
If to follow your logic it was a try on Bulgarian forum by a user "topa" post #59 in thread " FLY-FIN":
windsurf.bg/forum/index.php/topic,10157.45.html
French forum post has a link on Bulgarian forum, but you need to find this specific topic "Fly-Fin." It is in Bulgarian language. Use Google translate. Bulgarian discussion is about performance of Fly-Fin. Participant nikyzlatanov has built his own Fly-Fin and it did not work. Participant RazeR69 bought fly-fin from frpgear and it some work. Raze69 made frpgear fin 10 cm deeper for his specific board and it worked better. Another participant topa bought two fly-fins from frpgear and it worked well. After participant topa posted his positive frpgear flyfin detailed review the discussion ended. I am sure you can inspire continuation of Bulgarian discussion by stepping into it with your conspiracy theories about LOL/XYZ/Stepan/Anton/topa/nikyzlatanov/ and Raze69 to be the members of a Russian hacking operation.
On a serious note my engineering observation is that it has been many attempts around the world to make fly-fin work for over 20 years. All the attempts failed. Recent attempts from TheVirus and Robby Naish also failed. Is it disturbing for you that Soviet engineers got it finally right?
Here is Google translation from frpgear flyfin review from Bulgaria (Bulgaria is on Black Sea FYI)
"Answer: FLY-FIN
? Reply # 46 -: 09/05/2018 20:41?
The time has come to share the impressions of the test and the work of the 2020 model. I was a little late, but now I have the opportunity to test.
Yesterday, 08.05. the Dabnika super day! Wind 5-6m, winds at no more than 7 , sun and only 2 surfboards.
Boards 138l., Width 80cm, Exoset XMove, I am 90kg, sails 6.8 and 7.8
1. With a canvas 6.8 beach start and immediately accelerate. At every gust the board comes out on a glide. Extremely easy to manage, do not load your feet, Spinach is not at all-no !!!
It requires a more upright position, the mast slightly backwards, the paws also back, the legs are almost in the gutters, which is big +, a little acceleration and you're in it! And this on a weak wind! The board with this fin is stable in the firing and has an even more sharp course when boarding.
2.Flat 7.8. Well, there is no such thing! The board runs smoothly, there are no shocks in the gusts, leg control is stable but requires precision! Do not endure strong appearances! Only soft and light pressures! There is no sticking on the board. Extremely nice gliding! Oops, Dumbika knows what it is, is processed without any disturbances, the board just eats it like a hungry dog!
I am extremely pleased with this fin! Yes
I wait a good time to try and model 2019+ with my other board 118L, 75cm. y, which I will report immediately!Wink
So, on 5th and 6th 05th, I was at the Garden and on a still weaker wind, with this miracle, in the water-displacement mode, the boat-boat style I got to the middle of the bay and back. Then I picked up a Race MFC 48sm. and ..... just shuffling. Almost no movement!
That's it for now !
I will not go into the details and discussions about the hydrodynamic characteristics of the product, I will only say that it is excellently conceived!
Thank you, Stepan!"
During the mean time I am waiting for delivery of frpgear fly-foil that I purchase for $395.00 introductory price. All carbon, titanium inserts, 100 cm wingspan for light wind, tuttle box head with an integrated flange plate -no need to reinforce my finbox. Will see myself if Robby Naish was correct about hydrofoiling at 6-10 knots wind. Frpgear website says that Robby Naish was correct: it is possible to wind foil at 8 knots wind without pumping. I will follow with updates.

So frp, after a year of telling us foils are crap compared to the flyfin, now makes a foil? Too F*ing funny.

Oh, "Perhaps, Robby Naish is right. It is possible to windfoil at 6-10 knots wind. ?"

Yeah, you've been telling us he's a fraud. From your post just up this page. "Please allow me to explain more what is going on inside " Naish Light Wind Hydro foiling Explained." The minimum take off speed for Naish foil is 14 knots. Based on the open sails on all the Naish videos the wind speed is over 14 knots. I do not believe that somebody like Naish cannot tell the difference between 10 and 14 knots. This is why I get offended by "Naish Light Wind Explained" and other Naish promotional videos for one single reason: Naish assumes we are all not smart so he can easy trick us. When you have been dishonest with me ones it will take much time and effort for you to earn reputation again. "

So, is Nils Rosenblad just a lot smarter than you thought or were did your engineering background fail you when you did your calculations?

xyz, I really don't think my comments will matter at all to what you do or what you think. Hopefully, though, I can keep someone from wasting their money.

Paducah I totally agree. Naish and other foil manufacturers have a proven record.
This other thing ....??? It will be interesting to see.

If it ends up being a piece of junk, I wonder if XYZ will let us know that?

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Paducah said..
For those of you who actually windfoil Naish foil, 7.0 sail, winds 5-8 kts (love this guy)

1. 5-8 knots is incorrect translation. Asian script says 3-4 m/s 3 m/s = 6 knots, not 5. This is about 40 % difference in power.
2. When wind drops to 6 knots the guy does not foil. But he goes on fast planing because foil still generates lift but not enough to fly - FRP Gear Fly-Fin mode. This proves Fly-Fin better for early planing compare to foiling above water.
3. The guy uses 7 m sail and Robby used 5 m sail
4, When the Asian partner cannot fly (just doing fly-fin planing) you can see two windsurfers on semi planing. Do you think these two windsurfers were so enthusiastic to go into freeing water if it was not enough wind to windsurf? Video says 2 degrees C.
5. At 2C temperature you get 10% more power from wind compare to 50C on Robby's video. In other words, you lost some 8 lbs of weight
6. Look at this guy on other videos and realize that he is 1/2 of the weight of Robby. 50% of weight allows to use 25% lighter wind. If Robby can go at 10 knots, this guy can do the same at 8 knots.
7. Guy goes with open sail. Cannot fly with open sail at 5 knots wind. Not enough apparent wind speed on sail.
As someone noticed this guy shows only what he wants to show. He is using GoPro that records one hr nonstop and he was able to get only 2 minutes of flying. And even these two minutes are short and no turns shown.
If I go out when anemometer reads above 6 knots I always have some moments of 10 knots.
I am sorry but I see another attempt here to sale Naish to mislead consumers.

Note to your argument about Naish having engineers. You brought up a name: Nils Rosenblad. I have checked his LinkedIn profile and Facebook and google. Perhaps I have missed something, so please correct me. Naish engineering lead went to High Scool. He took classes at two regional Universities but not enough to get a degree. His work experience consists on only working for Naish. I respect your broad definition of engineering.
You have probably did LinkeIn and googled Dr. Lunin - the engineer for FRPGear. Ask Robby how steering feels on his Ferrari to give a credit to the key designer of vr-rack system - Dr. Lunin from FRPGear. But I will let you to conclude on this comparison. I have to apologize to Mr. Rosenblad, but it was the member of your team who started this comparison. This is why I think Naish team has inter personality issues. Instead of working of product improvement they are trying to setup each other on forums.

About frpgear fly-foil hydrofoil.
I think you Paducah has gotten too excited and fail into a trap. Go back to frpgear.com and read it again and again to understand the message. What frp is really telling you is that "Robby is correct, it is possible to hydrofoil at 8 knots wind on frpgear fly-foil and on some other foils." Indeed Robby knows that other companies have done it (Horue for example). Robby bought and tested these good foils. Now Robby wants to have it too but it is not easy. This is why Robby makes these videos and just calling the numbers any way he likes.

About what is better fly-fin planing or hydrofoiling.
I think it is a privilege of FRP gear to comment on both design and compare since FRPGear is the only company in th industry that has successfully developed the both products. I understand you did not try fly-fin. Perhaps, you tried hydrofoil. Before you try both: fly-fin and hydrofoil you have to listed to the experts why have already done both. as I see it from the product, frpgear has invented a very cool looking fly-fin and very cool looking hydrofoil. I do not see any other experts with experience in both. This is why I purchase frp and I do not purchase Naish because Naish has simply has nothing I like.

FYI:
French forum called new 2018 frpgear fly-foil the sexiest hydrofoil on the market. For a straight mind the resemblance to a spread lag handstand is very appropriate for the beach use product. See the pictures below.

My frpgear fly-foil has been shipped. I saved some $500 compare to Naish. When I will be able to fly-foil it I will post some pictures and may be some videos. Are there any videos of you hydrofoiling?

There are two new videos of frpgear fly-foiling testing:

XYZ-frp,
do yourself a favour and invest in a video that shows what your product is capable of.

You are extremely persistant xyz/Stepan, i'll give you that. Not at all afraid to carry on, even when its quite clear the gig is up.

You could've come at this with an entirely different approach, and people may have listened to what you had to say.

Below: another cunning design from the xyz design bureau who can't figure out a fuselage so duplicate the most expensive part of a foil



Steering this topic back to actual working foils that don't suck - who's using wings in the sub 700 cm2 range and in what conditions? Considering a foil that optionally comes with two wings and not really sure I'd be using the smaller one (650). Larger one is 1000+

Select to expand quote

Paducah said..
Below: another cunning design from the xyz design bureau who can't figure out a fuselage so duplicate the most expensive part of a foil



Steering this topic back to actual working foils that don't suck - who's using wings in the sub 700 cm2 range and in what conditions? Considering a foil that optionally comes with two wings and not really sure I'd be using the smaller one (650). Larger one is 1000+

Few of the foilers in WA have the f4 foil, which comes with the two different size lift foils. From what theyve told me, The smaller foil is significantly better when the wind is up.

apparently they've dropped the smaller lift foil for the latest edition though