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thedoor said..
Does anyone know if other sailors were on foil in the heats?

Yeah in the earlier heats everyone except one guy was on foils, but once it got over 20 there was only two guys who took the foil option.

Wow, Incredible straight line speed. I did not expect that...

Can you guys switch from riding foils to fast windsurfing right from the start?

If you look at the drone shots you can see that it's crazy gusty. In those conditions a foil will win most of the time unless it's blowing 40 knts. If you look at Antoines flat out speed when he gets hit by a gust it's clearly significantly higher than the foil but he slows down as soon as he comes out of a gust.

The same at the first turn. The wind drops a bit and combined with a clump of sailors stuck together kills even more wind. A foil would simply glide through with almost on power in the sail.

I am surprised none of the riders have a drone they throw up prior to the race to look at the course from the air in order to gage where the big gusts come through on the course and how gusty it is overall.

Another factor that makes Nico's performance even more impressive is the gear restrictions for the foil. I believe they can only register 2 front wings as most believed the foil would be only used in the lighter winds. But now Nico is trying for a range of 8 to 28knts.
it would be like restricting the fin sailors to 3 fins only :))

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stehsegler said..
If you look at the drone shots you can see that it's crazy gusty. In those conditions a foil will win most of the time unless it's blowing 40 knts. If you look at Antoines flat out speed when he gets hit by a gust it's clearly significantly higher than the foil but he slows down as soon as he comes out of a gust.

The same at the first turn. The wind drops a bit and combined with a clump of sailors stuck together kills even more wind. A foil would simply glide through with almost on power in the sail.

I am surprised none of the riders have a drone they throw up prior to the race to look at the course from the air in order to gage where the big gusts come through on the course and how gusty it is overall.

Yeah, I noticed the wind gusts on the water and thought the same about foil vs fin avg speed over course and around the corners.
It would be interesting if there was GPS data feeds from the boards like in AC75 to compare speed min/max speed, including the usual GPS windsurf stats like peak/avg/alpha/distance/etc.

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azuli said..

stehsegler said..
If you look at the drone shots you can see that it's crazy gusty. In those conditions a foil will win most of the time unless it's blowing 40 knts. If you look at Antoines flat out speed when he gets hit by a gust it's clearly significantly higher than the foil but he slows down as soon as he comes out of a gust.

The same at the first turn. The wind drops a bit and combined with a clump of sailors stuck together kills even more wind. A foil would simply glide through with almost on power in the sail.

I am surprised none of the riders have a drone they throw up prior to the race to look at the course from the air in order to gage where the big gusts come through on the course and how gusty it is overall.

Yeah, I noticed the wind gusts on the water and thought the same about foil vs fin avg speed over course and around the corners.
It would be interesting if there was GPS data feeds from the boards like in AC75 to compare speed min/max speed, including the usual GPS windsurf stats like peak/avg/alpha/distance/etc.

Obviously the foil average speed was higher over the whole course as Nico won by a large margin. But what I think surprised everyone was the high peak speeds of the foil. It was obvious on both starts that fin and foil had similar peak speeds, it was neck and neck the whole first leg. If the fin was quicker in the gusts then surely they would of got an overlap on the foil and spat it out the back. ( like happened to AA)
I didn't see an fin peak speed advantage, only foil gains in the lulls and corners.
( of course I am bias as I only foiled for years :))

What were the sail size differences? Looks like Nico was on 6.0 vs the rest on 7.0-7.8?

I reckon foil gybes are way easier to do consistently compared to carve gybes.

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WsurfAustin said..
Wow, Incredible straight line speed. I did not expect that...

Yep, that is what makes the difference. They are probably going somewhere around 30-33 knots and the foil is right there. More or less the same top speed, maybe a bit less but enough to dominate given the better jibes.

www.facebook.com/watch/live/?v=597882811173477&ref=watch_permalink

Some more heats at 4 mins and another heat (abandoned final) at 1hr 13mins from the live stream. Its exciting, but also a little boring to watch as the fin sailors never seem close.

In first heat at 4 mins, Nico was head to head with Maciek and was able to easily squeeze him upwind.

In the abandoned final, well these images tell the story at the first mark. Here he is coming into the first mark..

And ends up 20m ahead at the exit, and with the gap widening as he's just carrying way more speed.
gifyu.com/image/1yCC

Goyard spent the last three months trying to break 40 knots on foil, and coming close multiple times.
At the end of each run there was a high speed jibe. Repetition, the thousand hours, you know the story.
The stability is amazing, in the straights and thru the jibes. The cleanest jibes, the tightest jibes, beautiful sailing.
And he was on 6.0, would you rather jibe a 6.0 or a 7.8 at speed? Rotational quickness, and back to planning speed quickly.
Just really impressive sailing and a considerable advance of our sport.
When you can outrun AA to first mark that's some straight line speed, then he picks up 30 meters first mark, 40 meters second mark, and on and on each mark gaining significant advantage. But its not just foil advantage.
He won races in the Silvaplana event by minutes and at that event all competitors were on foils.

Ok, we, big/passionate public, didn't know how (f...k) fast the foil really performs in a race course, but cannot accept the top dogs were (are) unprepared to that. It's both stuff and sailors matters. Most of the brands did not develope enough good stuff for wind like that and sailors trained less than enough to fit those conditions. Please remember Nico was IFCA youth champion and one of the PWA rookie. He almost quit PWA to start an hard and intende foil stuff development and training. We almost didn't hear about him for couple of years. Now time has come... Everybody need to align to that level or better stay home!
Still happy (and excited) for the stuff mix racing. It will last short as they will soon collect enough data to know what to do when.
Also happy for the new actors show up and their inspiration for the young newcomers.
Along covid period Maciek performed many interviews in which he used to ask people what would have raised the slalom show level up. he never mentioned "foil" in the options. Now he has the answer!!

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chuckmaui said..
Goyard spent the last three months trying to break 40 knots on foil, and coming close multiple times.
At the end of each run there was a high speed jibe. Repetition, the thousand hours, you know the story.
The stability is amazing, in the straights and thru the jibes. The cleanest jibes, the tightest jibes, beautiful sailing.
And he was on 6.0, would you rather jibe a 6.0 or a 7.8 at speed? Rotational quickness, and back to planning speed quickly.
Just really impressive sailing and a considerable advance of our sport.
When you can outrun AA to first mark that's some straight line speed, then he picks up 30 meters first mark, 40 meters second mark, and on and on each mark gaining significant advantage. But its not just foil advantage.
He won races in the Silvaplana event by minutes and at that event all competitors were on foils.

I think this is a really important observation. He's been pushing the limits on an even smaller foil, I think that's when he was using his 330 front. It recalibrates him at a higher speed with likely more twitchy feel.

Also, I didn't realize his sail was that much smaller. No wonder he was crushing the pack.

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aeroegnr said..

chuckmaui said..
Goyard spent the last three months trying to break 40 knots on foil, and coming close multiple times.
At the end of each run there was a high speed jibe. Repetition, the thousand hours, you know the story.
The stability is amazing, in the straights and thru the jibes. The cleanest jibes, the tightest jibes, beautiful sailing.
And he was on 6.0, would you rather jibe a 6.0 or a 7.8 at speed? Rotational quickness, and back to planning speed quickly.
Just really impressive sailing and a considerable advance of our sport.
When you can outrun AA to first mark that's some straight line speed, then he picks up 30 meters first mark, 40 meters second mark, and on and on each mark gaining significant advantage. But its not just foil advantage.
He won races in the Silvaplana event by minutes and at that event all competitors were on foils.

I think this is a really important observation. He's been pushing the limits on an even smaller foil, I think that's when he was using his 330 front. It recalibrates him at a higher speed with likely more twitchy feel.

Also, I didn't realize his sail was that much smaller. No wonder he was crushing the pack.

Just a quick correction. I mentioned that it might be the 330 wing and changed that in a follow up comment to 430. The live stream and interview was so choppy and bad quality, that in the interview I just heard 3 and assumed it was 330 or at least it sounded like that. For the record, he used a 6.0 sail, 430 front wing, 200 rear and 100 evo fuse with the standard race mast (R). Just wanted to clarify my mistake.

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ZeroVix said..



Just a quick correction. I mentioned that it might be the 330 wing and changed that in a follow up comment to 430. The live stream and interview was so choppy and bad quality, that in the interview I just heard 3 and assumed it was 330 or at least it sounded like that. For the record, he used a 6.0 sail, 430 front wing, 200 rear and 100 evo fuse with the standard race mast (R). Just wanted to clarify my mistake.

Oh yeah, that's understood. The PWA kit was 430, but he has been practicing trying to get to 40kts on the smaller 350. I mean that's a 25% smaller wing for his solo speed runs. All that time on something like that has got to make sailing the 430, and not having a lot of pressure because he can stay ahead and time his jibes well, much easier.

Zerofix...THANK YOU for the spec info.

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swoosh said..
www.facebook.com/watch/live/?v=597882811173477&ref=watch_permalink

Some more heats at 4 mins and another heat (abandoned final) at 1hr 13mins from the live stream. Its exciting, but also a little boring to watch as the fin sailors never seem close.

In first heat at 4 mins, Nico was head to head with Maciek and was able to easily squeeze him upwind.

In the abandoned final, well these images tell the story at the first mark. Here he is coming into the first mark..

And ends up 20m ahead at the exit, and with the gap widening as he's just carrying way more speed.
gifyu.com/image/1yCC

Great link. His jibes are just killing everyone else while his speed is about even.

The view at water level at the beginning of the live stream really shows how hard it's blowing (like a lot).

Watch around 43:00 and William Hupert trying to hold on with a foil. Unlike Goyard, he's mortal.

From Goyard interview, "I have seen so much reaction on the internet so far about this race and I would just like to say that even though the gusts were really strong, the format of the race, the angles of the marks (really tight on some races) , and the big wind variations made the race very tough for the fins! Not sure it would have been the same game in a stable wind! "

The place has obviously very variable winds, and one can notice the angle at the first mark ... but Goyard was at it again today. He won the second final In lighter conditions with everybody on foil.

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duzzi said..
From Goyard interview, "I have seen so much reaction on the internet so far about this race and I would just like to say that even though the gusts were really strong, the format of the race, the angles of the marks (really tight on some races) , and the big wind variations made the race very tough for the fins! Not sure it would have been the same game in a stable wind! "

The place has obviously very variable winds, and one can notice the angle at the first mark ... but Goyard was at it again today. He won the second final In lighter conditions with everybody on foil.

Hang on they had another race already? Is there video for that?

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thedoor said..

duzzi said..
From Goyard interview, "I have seen so much reaction on the internet so far about this race and I would just like to say that even though the gusts were really strong, the format of the race, the angles of the marks (really tight on some races) , and the big wind variations made the race very tough for the fins! Not sure it would have been the same game in a stable wind! "

The place has obviously very variable winds, and one can notice the angle at the first mark ... but Goyard was at it again today. He won the second final In lighter conditions with everybody on foil.

Hang on they had another race already? Is there video for that?

Yeah they've had a live feed. It is over for today though. www.pwaworldtour.com/index.php?id=920

Goyard was just crushing everyone.

Foils performing well in unsteady (read: real world) conditions and with more manageable sail sizes shows why they are also very popular with recreational sailors.

I see foiling as making the PWA (and racing in general) have a wider appeal among recreational sailors than it did using fins. Of course I've been saying this for a while.

They all seem to be running superlong harness lines for foil slalom?? ... anyone know the specs story?

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duzzi said..
From Goyard interview, "I have seen so much reaction on the internet so far about this race and I would just like to say that even though the gusts were really strong, the format of the race, the angles of the marks (really tight on some races) , and the big wind variations made the race very tough for the fins! Not sure it would have been the same game in a stable wind! "

The place has obviously very variable winds, and one can notice the angle at the first mark ... but Goyard was at it again today. He won the second final In lighter conditions with everybody on foil.

Yes the angles are very tight between the marks in this slalom course which i believe is suiting the foils a bit better. If the course was more downwind i think the fins would be a bit faster in a straight line, however Nico is sailing well and the foil is killing them in the gybe. Its cool to watch, especially when you see the angle from the chase boat at water level coz they are absolutely cooking on the foil.

Next generation windsurfing is here now at recreational and professional level

Cheers to the windfoil era that has already given me hours of fun

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Peter Hands said..
They all seem to be running superlong harness lines for foil slalom?? ... anyone know the specs story?

Pretty standard for everything from waves to slalom these days. +32" is typical for all.

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duzzi said..

WsurfAustin said..
Wow, Incredible straight line speed. I did not expect that...

Yep, that is what makes the difference. They are probably going somewhere around 30-33 knots and the foil is right there. More or less the same top speed, maybe a bit less but enough to dominate given the better jibes.

He mentioned in the interview he was doing 33-34 knots on the reach

Goyard is way ahead than other foilers. Even if everyone goes on a foil, he will still be way ahead. We saw that in 2019 and I think he will have spend the time since then on the foil whereas everyone else is splitting their time. Sounds like he is using small wings for speed and has the technique to keep speed up in the gybes.
The marks nearer the beach look to be in lighter wind, and the foil still glides around whereas the fin sailors are pumping out of the gybes.
Its only the first event. Will he still have the upperhand when sailing on the open sea with gybes marks in swell and breaking waves, like Sylt?

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Dishpet said..

duzzi said..

Dishpet said..
Day 1 of the Tiberias PWA World Cup in Slalom just ended with Nicolas Goyard pushing the foil as his weapon of choice in 20/25+ knot conditions.

He claimed the first elimination in spectacular fashion. Are fins really getting pushed to the 30+ knot mark in slalom and what do you guys think about this fin/foil format ?

That is far from 25 knots wind speed but the foil advantage is obvious. In the jibes is not a surprise at all, in the straights it is! Goyard barely looses anything in the first straight and can be first at the first mark. after that there is no story, all the fins come to a stop at the first mark and the game is over .

www.windguru.cz/station/1909
This station recorded 27 knot gusts, don't know if it's related to the spot.

Migdal is about 4km away from Tiberias. Looking on google maps, there seems to be larger hills upwind at Tiberias. Migdal has a flat section of land near the beach. So it could be windier there. Or it might not!

Last 2 days wind from Migdal.

Forgot to mention about the windguru windstation, the course they are sailing looks a 1 - 2 of km off the shore, so probably more windy there than on the land.