A couple of new options for those who feel a foil specific product is better
Personally I think what ever you use on a fin is fine or good enough
Anyway they are quite light and it's always good to read what's up for grabs
www.neilpryde.com/collections/sails-2021

It's good to see the industry continuing to support the foiling sports with new gear. Hopefully these will be good.

Above he wrote, "Personally I think what ever you use on a fin is fine or good enough." I would add to that and say, "Personally I think what ever you use on a FOIL is fine or good enough." I have two Flyers and rarely use them since my Revolutions and XT Racings and Phantoms are fine or good enough.

Yeah, it's exciting to see how these new products are developing. On the Naish site, 3 out of 5 of their 2021 Freeride sails are positioned as Foil Sails.

www.naishsails.com/products/sails

Sorta makes sense.
While windfoilers make up maybe 1/4 of the actual users, they are much more likely to buy new sails than the dedicated windsurfers, so the potential market is probably close to even.
Even I, an admittedly not converted foiler, can appreciate the difference between a foil sail and a ws wave sail. Ezzy Hydras.

Do they have 100% x-ply? that is why I stayed with the aerotech freespeeds, have had barnacles cut the film but the x-ply held it together and made for an easy repair.

Dacron is much more durable than any film.

Im still waiting for the 1 cam 7.0 foilsail. I dont understand why all brands have to put 2 cams in the 7.0 size.. I now use a Severne Unit 7.0 as my biggest freeride foilsail. Its a 1cam below the boom, 5 batten design, extremely light and easy to pump, both trimable like a freestyle sail with relatively thight leach and as a freerace sail with open leach, because the batten above the boom can either sit behind the mast in a freeracey fashion or next to it like a freestyle sail. I really only use it in the 7-12 knot range, so really dont need any more stability from the sail. I just wat exactly that sail with a lower foot cut & higher aspect ratio (7.0 sits on a 430 now), then I'd be very very happy.

To me it seems like they aim the bigger freeride foilsail sizes at people who ride sails way too big for the conditions.

Can anyone explain to me why it seems like my naish lift 5.7 pumps better than my 6m flyer? As previously discussed the lift becomes a handful when the wind gets over 20, but the flyer doesn't.

I have a HSM speedfreak on order (www.hotsailsmaui.com/sail.php?uid=21)with the hope of achieving a good combo of pump power and ability to handle higher wind.

Seems like for people using freeride foils, that tend to rig smaller, we need a large pump power to sail area ratio. Once I am on the foil, I need minimal sail power to keep going. Those using race foils rig bigger so maybe pump power to sail area ratio isn't as crucial

Select to expand quote

thedoor said..
Can anyone explain to me why it seems like my naish lift 5.7 pumps better than my 6m flyer? As previously discussed the lift becomes a handful when the wind gets over 20, but the flyer doesn't.

I have a HSM speedfreak on order (www.hotsailsmaui.com/sail.php?uid=21)with the hope of achieving a good combo of pump power and ability to handle higher wind.

Seems like for people using freeride foils, that tend to rig smaller, we need a large pump power to sail area ratio. Once I am on the foil, I need minimal sail power to keep going. Those using race foils rig bigger so maybe pump power to sail area ratio isn't as crucial

Aspect ratio is a big part of it. A lower aspect sail (like the lift) with more backhand preassure is a lot easier to pump than a high aspect sail, as power through the backhand can easily be translated to the foil through the backfoot! Low aspect sails also overpower faster on the foil because the power shifts back and back as sailpreassure increases, leading to more preassure on the backfoot.

A high aspect sail can also be pumped efficiently, but its a different / harder technique to master. Race kit can fly very very early, but its more pumping through the front foot as power is way more forward in the sail, high aspect sails are therefore aslo easier to get up in the air with more front footed foils.

Also the timing is slightly different, where with a low aspect sail you push the foil through the backfoot as you pull the sail (easy as it is a natural movement), with a high aspect sail you push the foil as you unload the foil when moving the rig forward (which is not necessarily a natural movement).

Select to expand quote

WhiteofHeart said..

thedoor said..
Can anyone explain to me why it seems like my naish lift 5.7 pumps better than my 6m flyer? As previously discussed the lift becomes a handful when the wind gets over 20, but the flyer doesn't.

I have a HSM speedfreak on order (www.hotsailsmaui.com/sail.php?uid=21)with the hope of achieving a good combo of pump power and ability to handle higher wind.

Seems like for people using freeride foils, that tend to rig smaller, we need a large pump power to sail area ratio. Once I am on the foil, I need minimal sail power to keep going. Those using race foils rig bigger so maybe pump power to sail area ratio isn't as crucial

Aspect ratio is a big part of it. A lower aspect sail (like the lift) with more backhand preassure is a lot easier to pump than a high aspect sail, as power through the backhand can easily be translated to the foil through the backfoot! Low aspect sails also overpower faster on the foil because the power shifts back and back as sailpreassure increases, leading to more preassure on the backfoot.

A high aspect sail can also be pumped efficiently, but its a different / harder technique to master. Race kit can fly very very early, but its more pumping through the front foot as power is way more forward in the sail, high aspect sails are therefore aslo easier to get up in the air with more front footed foils.

Also the timing is slightly different, where with a low aspect sail you push the foil through the backfoot as you pull the sail (easy as it is a natural movement), with a high aspect sail you push the foil as you unload the foil when moving the rig forward (which is not necessarily a natural movement).

OK so it it's likely I do not have the pumping technique down to pump the flyer well.

Did you mean push the foil as you unload the sail?

I have noticed that same thing and draft stability is why the Flyer handles better in breeze but doesn't pump as well. Those cambers and stiff sail cloth hold the sail to its designed shape when it's windy but also when you pump. In other words, sails that get deeper in shape when you pump them produce more power per area while pumping but at the cost of draft stability when it's windy. Stiff cambered sails stay the same shape when you pump them so you don't feel the bounce. Personally, I'll take the bounce and just sail with less area overall.

Select to expand quote

utcminusfour said..
I have noticed that same thing and draft stability is why the Flyer handles better in breeze but doesn't pump as well. Those cambers and stiff sail cloth hold the sail to its designed shape when it's windy but also when you pump. In other words, sails that get deeper in shape when you pump them produce more power per area while pumping but at the cost of draft stability when it's windy. Stiff cambered sails stay the same shape when you pump them so you don't feel the bounce. Personally, I'll take the bounce and just sail with less area overall.

Makes sense. Any idea why I feel like i get more bounce out of my sails when are rigged flat. Seems like when I am struggling to go, I try letting off the outhaul, which might give a bit more power for slogging, but makes pumping less effective

Select to expand quote

thedoor said..

WhiteofHeart said..

thedoor said..
Can anyone explain to me why it seems like my naish lift 5.7 pumps better than my 6m flyer? As previously discussed the lift becomes a handful when the wind gets over 20, but the flyer doesn't.

I have a HSM speedfreak on order (www.hotsailsmaui.com/sail.php?uid=21)with the hope of achieving a good combo of pump power and ability to handle higher wind.

Seems like for people using freeride foils, that tend to rig smaller, we need a large pump power to sail area ratio. Once I am on the foil, I need minimal sail power to keep going. Those using race foils rig bigger so maybe pump power to sail area ratio isn't as crucial

Aspect ratio is a big part of it. A lower aspect sail (like the lift) with more backhand preassure is a lot easier to pump than a high aspect sail, as power through the backhand can easily be translated to the foil through the backfoot! Low aspect sails also overpower faster on the foil because the power shifts back and back as sailpreassure increases, leading to more preassure on the backfoot.

A high aspect sail can also be pumped efficiently, but its a different / harder technique to master. Race kit can fly very very early, but its more pumping through the front foot as power is way more forward in the sail, high aspect sails are therefore aslo easier to get up in the air with more front footed foils.

Also the timing is slightly different, where with a low aspect sail you push the foil through the backfoot as you pull the sail (easy as it is a natural movement), with a high aspect sail you push the foil as you unload the foil when moving the rig forward (which is not necessarily a natural movement).

OK so it it's likely I do not have the pumping technique down to pump the flyer well.

Did you mean push the foil as you unload the sail?

Yeah, for the higher aspect ratio sail push the foil as you unload the sail.

Select to expand quote

thedoor said..

WhiteofHeart said..

thedoor said..
Can anyone explain to me why it seems like my naish lift 5.7 pumps better than my 6m flyer? As previously discussed the lift becomes a handful when the wind gets over 20, but the flyer doesn't.

I have a HSM speedfreak on order (www.hotsailsmaui.com/sail.php?uid=21)with the hope of achieving a good combo of pump power and ability to handle higher wind.

Seems like for people using freeride foils, that tend to rig smaller, we need a large pump power to sail area ratio. Once I am on the foil, I need minimal sail power to keep going. Those using race foils rig bigger so maybe pump power to sail area ratio isn't as crucial

Aspect ratio is a big part of it. A lower aspect sail (like the lift) with more backhand preassure is a lot easier to pump than a high aspect sail, as power through the backhand can easily be translated to the foil through the backfoot! Low aspect sails also overpower faster on the foil because the power shifts back and back as sailpreassure increases, leading to more preassure on the backfoot.

A high aspect sail can also be pumped efficiently, but its a different / harder technique to master. Race kit can fly very very early, but its more pumping through the front foot as power is way more forward in the sail, high aspect sails are therefore aslo easier to get up in the air with more front footed foils.

Also the timing is slightly different, where with a low aspect sail you push the foil through the backfoot as you pull the sail (easy as it is a natural movement), with a high aspect sail you push the foil as you unload the foil when moving the rig forward (which is not necessarily a natural movement).

OK so it it's likely I do not have the pumping technique down to pump the flyer well.

Did you mean push the foil as you unload the sail?

Yeah, for the higher aspect ratio sail push the foil as you unload the sail. Its more like a "popping" movement, popping the board on top of the water when unloading the sail by pushing the foil through the backfoot.

This vs a low aspect sail where you load the sail and foil simultaniously. Thats also why low aspect sails are best matched with big low aspect foils which get up at slow speeds. Low aspect sail pumping gives a more powerful pump, but a shorter "glide" / "plane" phase vompared to high aspect sail pumping. The high aspect technique works very well with higher aspect ratio foils, as they need the glide to build up power.

In the end, its all a balance!

Tight out, tight leech for more useable area.
Loose outhaul, leech loosens also to spill wind. So when you loosen outhaul, you should also loosen downhaul to avoid floppy leech.

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LeeD said..
Tight out, tight leech for more useable area.
Loose outhaul, leech loosens also to spill wind. So when you loosen outhaul, you should also loosen downhaul to avoid floppy leech.

Looser leech = poorer pumping power?

This might be windsurfing 101, but.... I rarely adjust my downhaul, and never adjust it on the water. Are you suggesting that when I loosen the outhaul when the wind drops, simultaneously loosening the downhaul, may keep the leech tight so that pumping power is not impaired.

That's what the freestyler ws sailors do.

Select to expand quote

thedoor said..
Can anyone explain to me why it seems like my naish lift 5.7 pumps better than my 6m flyer? As previously discussed the lift becomes a handful when the wind gets over 20, but the flyer doesn't.

I have a HSM speedfreak on order (www.hotsailsmaui.com/sail.php?uid=21)with the hope of achieving a good combo of pump power and ability to handle higher wind.

Seems like for people using freeride foils, that tend to rig smaller, we need a large pump power to sail area ratio. Once I am on the foil, I need minimal sail power to keep going. Those using race foils rig bigger so maybe pump power to sail area ratio isn't as crucial

I think you're going to like the HSM Speedfreak. I have two - a 10.0 6 batten single cam and an older 7 batten no-cam 7.5. The 7.5 has a lower foot and closes the gap better. Jeff is talking about going back to that approach on the next revision of the sail. The 10.0 is a poor match for my i84 but I've foiled it a few times and it certainly gets up in a hurry. It's a blast to use with a big fin because it really is incredibly light. The 7.5 pumps well and makes me wonder whether I really need my 7.0 Flyer. The 4-batten Flyer is a little better balanced on foil but isn't much fun to ride in 20 on a fin, while the SF handles that with finesse.

Select to expand quote

Awalkspoiled said..

thedoor said..
Can anyone explain to me why it seems like my naish lift 5.7 pumps better than my 6m flyer? As previously discussed the lift becomes a handful when the wind gets over 20, but the flyer doesn't.

I have a HSM speedfreak on order (www.hotsailsmaui.com/sail.php?uid=21)with the hope of achieving a good combo of pump power and ability to handle higher wind.

Seems like for people using freeride foils, that tend to rig smaller, we need a large pump power to sail area ratio. Once I am on the foil, I need minimal sail power to keep going. Those using race foils rig bigger so maybe pump power to sail area ratio isn't as crucial

I think you're going to like the HSM Speedfreak. I have two - a 10.0 6 batten single cam and an older 7 batten no-cam 7.5. The 7.5 has a lower foot and closes the gap better. Jeff is talking about going back to that approach on the next revision of the sail. The 10.0 is a poor match for my i84 but I've foiled it a few times and it certainly gets up in a hurry. It's a blast to use with a big fin because it really is incredibly light. The 7.5 pumps well and makes me wonder whether I really need my 7.0 Flyer. The 4-batten Flyer is a little better balanced on foil but isn't much fun to ride in 20 on a fin, while the SF handles that with finesse.

Cool. I really like my SFMEs and have been keen to try a speed freak. I may even pull out one of my longboards and give it a go on the fin.

Select to expand quote

thedoor said..

utcminusfour said..
I have noticed that same thing and draft stability is why the Flyer handles better in breeze but doesn't pump as well. Those cambers and stiff sail cloth hold the sail to its designed shape when it's windy but also when you pump. In other words, sails that get deeper in shape when you pump them produce more power per area while pumping but at the cost of draft stability when it's windy. Stiff cambered sails stay the same shape when you pump them so you don't feel the bounce. Personally, I'll take the bounce and just sail with less area overall.

Makes sense. Any idea why I feel like i get more bounce out of my sails when are rigged flat. Seems like when I am struggling to go, I try letting off the outhaul, which might give a bit more power for slogging, but makes pumping less effective

A fuller sail WITH a tight leech is more powerfull. If you ease the outhaul too far it loosens the leech and that would kill pumping. If you are smacking the clew of your sail with the boom on every pump you may need more outhaul. Make sure you are close to spec on your downhauling as over baking this can rob light air bounce regardless of outhaul setting. If you have two holes in the clew of your sail, use the upper one when its light. You want more draft and a tight leech to get more bounce. Keep tweaking, you will find the sweet spot. Then mark that setting!

Select to expand quote

utcminusfour said..

thedoor said..

utcminusfour said..
I have noticed that same thing and draft stability is why the Flyer handles better in breeze but doesn't pump as well. Those cambers and stiff sail cloth hold the sail to its designed shape when it's windy but also when you pump. In other words, sails that get deeper in shape when you pump them produce more power per area while pumping but at the cost of draft stability when it's windy. Stiff cambered sails stay the same shape when you pump them so you don't feel the bounce. Personally, I'll take the bounce and just sail with less area overall.

Makes sense. Any idea why I feel like i get more bounce out of my sails when are rigged flat. Seems like when I am struggling to go, I try letting off the outhaul, which might give a bit more power for slogging, but makes pumping less effective

A fuller sail WITH a tight leech is more powerfull. If you ease the outhaul too far it loosens the leech and that would kill pumping. If you are smacking the clew of your sail with the boom on every pump you may need more outhaul. Make sure you are close to spec on your downhauling as over baking this can rob light air bounce regardless of outhaul setting. If you have two holes in the clew of your sail, use the upper one when its light. You want more draft and a tight leech to get more bounce. Keep tweaking, you will find the sweet spot. Then mark that setting!

I feel like I have my regular settings pretty dialed, but I definitely need to play with what to change when the wind drops

I have a buddy who regularly adjusts downhaul and outhaul while on the water, as wind conditions change.
He has one of these for this purpose. I do like the idea of being able to make a change on the water and immediately see how it feels. I know what works when I am riding, I just don't seem to be able to translate how it looks on the beach to how it will feel on the water.



PS: Sounds like less downhaul on my flyer and it would have pumped better. One of my other buddies suggested the same, but someone else previously told me that I was under downhauling the flyer, so I had been focusing on giving it more. Like all things I guess "it depends"

Totally DEPENDS.....under powered, overpowered...need control for gusts..need glide for lulls...like light feel..like power in hands..
JUST LIKE WINDSURFING!
Tuning is different for most, even same weight.

Select to expand quote

thedoor said..


I have a buddy who regularly adjusts downhaul and outhaul while on the water, as wind conditions change.
He has one of these for this purpose. I do like the idea of being able to make a change on the water and immediately see how it feels. I know what works when I am riding, I just don't seem to be able to translate how it looks on the beach to how it will feel on the water.

I got one of those as a 2nd rdm extension so I can set up two rigs in case I expect a wind change. So far, it works great, doesn't stick when you put it on the mast foot like my other extensions do, and I can tweak downhaul super easily.

When I foil...sub 20 knot breeze, I can drop the rig anywhere, straddle board, pull mast base near me, loosen downhaul....or pull more...stuff line inside, and plug the unit together... two pin us base.
The key is to stay seated and hand bend the u joint.

Select to expand quote

thedoor said..

utcminusfour said..

thedoor said..

utcminusfour said..
I have noticed that same thing and draft stability is why the Flyer handles better in breeze but doesn't pump as well. Those cambers and stiff sail cloth hold the sail to its designed shape when it's windy but also when you pump. In other words, sails that get deeper in shape when you pump them produce more power per area while pumping but at the cost of draft stability when it's windy. Stiff cambered sails stay the same shape when you pump them so you don't feel the bounce. Personally, I'll take the bounce and just sail with less area overall.

Makes sense. Any idea why I feel like i get more bounce out of my sails when are rigged flat. Seems like when I am struggling to go, I try letting off the outhaul, which might give a bit more power for slogging, but makes pumping less effective

A fuller sail WITH a tight leech is more powerfull. If you ease the outhaul too far it loosens the leech and that would kill pumping. If you are smacking the clew of your sail with the boom on every pump you may need more outhaul. Make sure you are close to spec on your downhauling as over baking this can rob light air bounce regardless of outhaul setting. If you have two holes in the clew of your sail, use the upper one when its light. You want more draft and a tight leech to get more bounce. Keep tweaking, you will find the sweet spot. Then mark that setting!

I feel like I have my regular settings pretty dialed, but I definitely need to play with what to change when the wind drops

I have a buddy who regularly adjusts downhaul and outhaul while on the water, as wind conditions change.
He has one of these for this purpose. I do like the idea of being able to make a change on the water and immediately see how it feels. I know what works when I am riding, I just don't seem to be able to translate how it looks on the beach to how it will feel on the water.

PS: Sounds like less downhaul on my flyer and it would have pumped better. One of my other buddies suggested the same, but someone else previously told me that I was under downhauling the flyer, so I had been focusing on giving it more. Like all things I guess "it depends"

Sorry thedoor, of coarse you have the settings dialed. Loosing juice when the outhaul is eased is puzzling and that is all I could come up with. I feel like it has to be twist related somehow. Less downhaul on my 6m flyer did help early lift off but was really backhand heavy and uncomfortable at speed. The guys at sailworks talked me out of that move.

Select to expand quote

utcminusfour said..

thedoor said..

utcminusfour said..

thedoor said..

utcminusfour said..
I have noticed that same thing and draft stability is why the Flyer handles better in breeze but doesn't pump as well. Those cambers and stiff sail cloth hold the sail to its designed shape when it's windy but also when you pump. In other words, sails that get deeper in shape when you pump them produce more power per area while pumping but at the cost of draft stability when it's windy. Stiff cambered sails stay the same shape when you pump them so you don't feel the bounce. Personally, I'll take the bounce and just sail with less area overall.

Makes sense. Any idea why I feel like i get more bounce out of my sails when are rigged flat. Seems like when I am struggling to go, I try letting off the outhaul, which might give a bit more power for slogging, but makes pumping less effective

A fuller sail WITH a tight leech is more powerfull. If you ease the outhaul too far it loosens the leech and that would kill pumping. If you are smacking the clew of your sail with the boom on every pump you may need more outhaul. Make sure you are close to spec on your downhauling as over baking this can rob light air bounce regardless of outhaul setting. If you have two holes in the clew of your sail, use the upper one when its light. You want more draft and a tight leech to get more bounce. Keep tweaking, you will find the sweet spot. Then mark that setting!

I feel like I have my regular settings pretty dialed, but I definitely need to play with what to change when the wind drops

I have a buddy who regularly adjusts downhaul and outhaul while on the water, as wind conditions change.
He has one of these for this purpose. I do like the idea of being able to make a change on the water and immediately see how it feels. I know what works when I am riding, I just don't seem to be able to translate how it looks on the beach to how it will feel on the water.

PS: Sounds like less downhaul on my flyer and it would have pumped better. One of my other buddies suggested the same, but someone else previously told me that I was under downhauling the flyer, so I had been focusing on giving it more. Like all things I guess "it depends"

Sorry thedoor, of coarse you have the settings dialed. Loosing juice when the outhaul is eased is puzzling and that is all I could come up with. I feel like it has to be twist related somehow. Less downhaul on my 6m flyer did help early lift off but was really backhand heavy and uncomfortable at speed. The guys at sailworks talked me out of that move.

No need for sorry. I think you guys might be onto something with the leach tightness and pumping power. For some reason I am pretty good on the foil, but I am the first to admit there are many more knowledgeable sailors out there than me.

Re flyer I guess its all about competing physics, and you often cant have everything, eg stability at high speed and good pumpage. Often we are looking for the best combo of factors we desire. Eg I was on the search for the fastest paddling surfboard that I could still duckdive.

PS I havent tried one but I have a friend who has the original easy hydras, and they seem to have a great combo of pumpage to high speed stability.

The new chinook pro flex mast foot is great for adjusting the rig out on the water, as there is no pressure through the tendon.
you can slip the extension off, adjust downhaul, and attach again very easily

Regarding the chinook proflex mast base: I can understand the benefit for windsurfing (the tendon helps absorb shocks, while the mechanical joint makes rig removal easy).

But for someone foiling only, wouldn't a mechanical base make more sense ? More direct drive when pumping, and no shock absorbption is needed due to the very smooth ride. Cheaper, simply, and no tendon to replace every year.

Did anyone make the switch from a tendon base to a mechanical base ? If yes, could you feel any difference ?(especially when pumping)

Hello,

I use the N/S or Duotone extender for RDM and SDM work really well on the standard universal version.
I did use the version with shock absorber and the surfbent was a pretty bad option. Due to geometry the surfbent creat a lot of torsion on the joint when the sail is laying on the water and if you add a nose dive with you with the hand on the boom you will break the metal attachment point for the joint. After that I do my first trial of winging with windsurf sail to get back to shore was really fun bud costly as the extender was dead

I use both mech and black rubber.
Both easy to unplug and install in moderate flatwater.
Hard in 30 knot breeze and big chop.

Select to expand quote

utcminusfour said..

thedoor said..

utcminusfour said..
I have noticed that same thing and draft stability is why the Flyer handles better in breeze but doesn't pump as well. Those cambers and stiff sail cloth hold the sail to its designed shape when it's windy but also when you pump. In other words, sails that get deeper in shape when you pump them produce more power per area while pumping but at the cost of draft stability when it's windy. Stiff cambered sails stay the same shape when you pump them so you don't feel the bounce. Personally, I'll take the bounce and just sail with less area overall.

Makes sense. Any idea why I feel like i get more bounce out of my sails when are rigged flat. Seems like when I am struggling to go, I try letting off the outhaul, which might give a bit more power for slogging, but makes pumping less effective

A fuller sail WITH a tight leech is more powerfull. If you ease the outhaul too far it loosens the leech and that would kill pumping. If you are smacking the clew of your sail with the boom on every pump you may need more outhaul. Make sure you are close to spec on your downhauling as over baking this can rob light air bounce regardless of outhaul setting. If you have two holes in the clew of your sail, use the upper one when its light. You want more draft and a tight leech to get more bounce. Keep tweaking, you will find the sweet spot. Then mark that setting!

This may be not a surprise to most of you old salts, but today as it dropped off I eased off my downhaul and outhaul about an inch each (normally I just do the outhaul), and low and behold I still had good pumpage. For those of you who may not been following I have had this issue where I would find that loosening my outhaul would lead to worse pump power, eventhough I increased the sail's draft.