Sandman,
I get and agree with all your points. The AFS gear is light, strong, fast and low maintence. From what I recall you are using 7-9 meter sails in 8-10 knots. I use the 1100 and a 5.7 meter sail in that wind range and I weigh 100kg. Yes I have to pump but because there is so much wing area it becomes all about puming the foil veritcally and less about pumping the sail. Pumping with the legs is easier on my body and so are the smaller sails. It's not the fastest way to windfoil at the bottom of the wind range but I find it a lot of fun and easy on my old bones.

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utcminusfour said..
Sandman,
I get and agree with all your points. The AFS gear is light, strong, fast and low maintence. From what I recall you are using 7-9 meter sails in 8-10 knots. I use the 1100 and a 5.7 meter sail in that wind range and I weigh 100kg. Yes I have to pump but because there is so much wing area it becomes all about puming the foil veritcally and less about pumping the sail. Pumping with the legs is easier on my body and so are the smaller sails. It's not the fastest way to windfoil at the bottom of the wind range but I find it a lot of fun and easy on my old bones.

Exactly! that is what some folk maybe don't understand about "foil pumping", you can use smaller sails, which means less drag, less weight and ideal for free-foiling speeds.

No need for 8.5+ unless you want to race?

also, when pumping the foil, your rig has to go up and down each cycle, and that rig is levered out front on your board... one of the reasons I liked being track back on my Slingshot Wizards and using a powerful freestyle sail which is also designed for a more upright stance.

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sunsetsailboards said..
also, when pumping the foil, your rig has to go up and down each cycle, and that rig is levered out front on your board... one of the reasons I liked being track back on my Slingshot Wizards and using a powerful freestyle sail which is also designed for a more upright stance.

Thanks Kevin,
My sail has steadly moved aft, altough the Shred Sled has the option for too far back at least for my skills. I have seen some of your video's and your really skilled! Can you do a tutorial on windfoil pumping? I am gaining but I know there is more I can improve on. I still have to keep telling my self to bounce more and focus less on the sail.

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utcminusfour said..
Sandman,
I get and agree with all your points. The AFS gear is light, strong, fast and low maintence. From what I recall you are using 7-9 meter sails in 8-10 knots. I use the 1100 and a 5.7 meter sail in that wind range and I weigh 100kg. Yes I have to pump but because there is so much wing area it becomes all about puming the foil veritcally and less about pumping the sail. Pumping with the legs is easier on my body and so are the smaller sails. It's not the fastest way to windfoil at the bottom of the wind range but I find it a lot of fun and easy on my old bones.

utcminusfour now I am using an 8.0 in the 8-10 knot range (realized I did not need the 9.0 for that range), so I use the same mast/boom for my 8.0/7.2/5.8 sails, the difference in weight between those Aerotech Freespeed sails is 1-2 pounds, but I hear you, hey whatever works for you is the best!

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utcminusfour said..

sunsetsailboards said..
also, when pumping the foil, your rig has to go up and down each cycle, and that rig is levered out front on your board... one of the reasons I liked being track back on my Slingshot Wizards and using a powerful freestyle sail which is also designed for a more upright stance.

Thanks Kevin,
My sail has steadly moved aft, altough the Shred Sled has the option for too far back at least for my skills. I have seen some of your video's and your really skilled! Can you do a tutorial on windfoil pumping? I am gaining but I know there is more I can improve on. I still have to keep telling my self to bounce more and focus less on the sail.

I find I need to pump the sail in unison with the foil to really get moving forward, while making short sail pumps I push the foil downward with my rear foot each time as I pull the sail inward, gradually increasing the amplitude of the foil pumping as my forward speed increases until I give the tail one last pop to get up.

Now people do pump just the foil on boards with no sail/rig, but they need either a swell or something else to get enough forward speed for the foil pumping to work (bungee, being pulled, running on dock with board/foil and jumping onto it), and that is with a lot less gear weight than a windfoiler.

Here is a better screw, also from MacMaster. Its a torx flat head screw. They are pricey! Used to use them to assemble main engine fuel pumps for aircraft gas turbines.

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lakeeffect said..
Here is a better screw, also from MacMaster. Its a torx flat head screw. They are pricey! Used to use them to assemble main engine fuel pumps for aircraft gas turbines.

That is what AFS uses to attach wing and stab.

I don't have an engineering background but my guess is that most if not all the foil bolts failures are due to defective bolts. Otherwise, literally all the foil designers are using undersized screws and I don't t think that is the case. how often should we be changing screws: do we really need to replace the bolts every 3, 6, 9 months? How often do you guys replace any bolts in you cars?

my point is that maybe we only need to get bolts that comply with ANSI, ISO, DIN etc specifications.
for example, this link shows an a2-70 bolt from fastenal: www.fastenal.com/products/details/M42550060A20000


From an approved fastenal vEndor; under specifications, it says that it is compliant with the specs for the bolt. I am pretty sure that a bolt like that should be good enough and it is only 62 cents each. Or you can go super safe and buy an a4-70 for an extra 7 cents per bolt.

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WillyWind said..
I don't have an engineering background but my guess is that most if not all the foil bolts failures are due to defective bolts. Otherwise, literally all the foil designers are using undersized screws and I don't t think that is the case. how often should we be changing screws: do we really need to replace the bolts every 3, 6, 9 months? How often do you guys replace any bolts in you cars?

my point is that maybe we only need to get bolts that comply with ANSI, ISO, DIN etc specifications.
for example, this link shows an a2-70 bolt from fastenal: www.fastenal.com/products/details/M42550060A20000


From an approved fastenal vEndor; under specifications, it says that it is compliant with the specs for the bolt. I am pretty sure that a bolt like that should be good enough and it is only 62 cents each. Or you can go super safe and buy an a4-70 for an extra 7 cents per bolt.

I think you will find NOT everyone is changing the bolts, it depends on the foil engineering among other things too

Its NOT an issue across all foils on the market

I reckon if you are going change them use the best money can buy or Proprietary bolts

There must be 5 threads running now regarding bolts and scaring the crap out of a lot of punters who don't need to worry

And it's not right discussing this under the name Moses foils because as far as i know they don't break if used with Moses supplied bolts

Okay we solved the bolt issues, now perhaps someone can explain how to cahnge the name of the post.

So what happened to the original screws supplied by Moses?

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I think you will find NOT everyone is changing the bolts, it depends on the foil engineering among other things too

Its NOT an issue across all foils on the market

I reckon if you are going change them use the best money can buy or Proprietary bolts

There must be 5 threads running now regarding bolts and scaring the crap out of a lot of punters who don't need to worry

And it's not right discussing this under the name Moses foils because as far as i know they don't break if used with Moses supplied bolts

I think you are right, the thread name does not reflect the content but I think the discussion is pretty clear about it by now.
BTW, I don't change my bolts periodically either. Using my foil around 40 times a year doesn't warrant bolt replacement because that equals to less than 80 hours of bolt usage (remember that I said I know nothing about bolts?). I bought the bolts to connect the mast to the board from a reputable distributor so I am pretty sure the bolts are to spec.

Title changed .

Thank you GreenPat! How did you do that?

I called him. By hitting the red flag in your post where you asked for renaming. The only way i found to contact a mod.

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Paducah said..
Sorry it happened to you. I think a number of brands have anticipated something like this by a) staggering the front screws so there isn't as much an axis of rotation (a number of them) b) widening the front (Axis) and c) adding a anode to reduce corrosion (Alpine)

Re your (c):SS electrochemical potential > than Al, so Al should be corroding.
I have seen 4 and 5 screws on newer foils - stiffer and safer.

More than just electrochemical potential, there is also kinetics and threshold energy to consider.

So I have learned from my mistakes and have been using ONLY Moses supplied fasteners and rinsing with fresh water after each ride.
Yet, I still manage to bend and break the M6 wing fasteners when I windsurf with the 1100.
Now Moses sells the 1100 with M8 fasteners but apparently not a windsurf fuse with M8 wing fasteners.
I am tempted to take my fuselage wings (1100 & 790) to a machine shop and have them bump up the fastener size to M8.
I have asked this of the Moses via email and have not gotten a response.
Wada ya think?

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utcminusfour said..
So I have learned from my mistakes and have been using ONLY Moses supplied fasteners and rinsing with fresh water after each ride.
Yet, I still manage to bend and break the M6 wing fasteners when I windsurf with the 1100.
Now Moses sells the 1100 with M8 fasteners but apparently not a windsurf fuse with M8 wing fasteners.
I am tempted to take my fuselage wings (1100 & 790) to a machine shop and have them bump up the fastener size to M8.
I have asked this of the Moses via email and have not gotten a response.
Wada ya think?

As long as they have enough material left it should work. But as you know, those m6 bolts are the weakest link; the m8s will definitely not be the weakest link anymore so something else might (will?) break.

You are going to destroy the anodization. Unsealed aluminum is much more corrosive. But you can de-anodize and than seal again. That would be perfect.

It is quite a simple process as the M6 holes will guide the drill bit. Just use the appropriate size drill for the M8 thread, only apply slight pressure and the drill will stop when it reaches the bottom of the hole. Use a M8 tap set, rethread the holes, use the end tap to reach the bottom of the hole.
www.ebay.com.au/itm/264120697195

I just got conformation from SAB Foil that it will work to drill and tap my wings and fuse up to M8. I am going to give this a go rather than switch to another platform.

UTC-4, Keep us posted on the M8 drill out. I went all in on a Moses quiver 2 years ago, and so far no bolt issues. Was ready to refresh the M6's for the season, but will go to M8's based on your report. THX

Any updates? How is the wing holding up?

I just sailed it for the first time today with the 1100 and M8 wing bolts and everything went fine. Time will tell but I am optimistic that this will solve my issue

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utcminusfour said..
I just sailed it for the first time today with the 1100 and M8 wing bolts and everything went fine. Time will tell but I am optimistic that this will solve my issue

I noticed on Moses website (hardware included based on datasheet) that the SUP wings are all M8 and now the 790, unless that was always the case. Strange that they left the 1100 with M6. What did you do to protect the aluminum fuse?

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ZeroVix said..

utcminusfour said..
I just sailed it for the first time today with the 1100 and M8 wing bolts and everything went fine. Time will tell but I am optimistic that this will solve my issue

I noticed on Moses website (hardware included based on datasheet) that the SUP wings are all M8 and now the 790, unless that was always the case. Strange that they left the 1100 with M6. What did you do to protect the aluminum fuse?

I did not do anything in way of anodizing, is there anything I can do?

I wanted to give an update on this.

When I drilled out my fuse and wings over to M8 I could not find the long middle bolt in A4 ss. I figured because the diameter was bigger I could get away with A2 bolts from McMaster. I promptly bent them!

Bruce and the folks at Sailworks have been very patient and supportive through all this. I really appreciate their dedication to customer service! He sent me link to purchase Titanium fasteners.
www.probolt-usa.com/

The new bolts have been flawless! They were not all that expensive at around $10 a piece. Let's just say that I have tested them under full load repeatedly now and they are solid! They also come with a colored coating so I choose the long bolt in a different color to help pick it out.

Long story short, I now charge with confidence on the amazing Moses 1100!

did you drill and tap or also install helicoils? Seems like helicoil installation isn't much harder and would ultimately have longevity benefits, or is there a downside to helicoils?