Hey all, I am normally hesitant to post anything negative about any product but I feel a responsibility to my tribe (all of you). I have managed to break my 1100 wing off of the fuse while sailing in moderate winds. The fuse was brand new and so were the fasteners. I am reasonable sure the fasteners were tight. I have hundreds of hours on this foil and have never had the wing attachment bolts loosen while sailing and I am sure there were tight when I hit the water prior to this incident. I do not jump, the wing just torqued it's self off. I have attached a pic taken while I sailed back in with the wing tucked in my harness and another showing the broken off bolts. I have approximately 30 sessions using the 1100 wing and I have bent the fasteners before but this time they just snapped. Admittedly, I am a heavy weight at 100kg. I am considering my options now because I need reliable. I have a Horue set up that I managed to destroy in the same failure mode, the big wing torqued off the fuse splitting the fuse in half. At the moment Axis appears to have one of the better design I have seen for this connection that I have now broken twice on two different brands.

I mentioned above that the Moses fuse was new. After seeing the posts of the failed Slingshot fuses I took a closer look at mine. After only 14 months of saltwater service I had to replace my fuse because of corrosion and cracks at the mast to fuse joint. In defense of Moses I did not rinse after each use. I typically leave it assembled in the car and once or twice a month I would take it apart, rinse and lube. Moral of the story is rinse it and inspect your gear closely and be cautious when on your big wings.

After how many sessions do you replace the bolts?

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ZeroVix said..
After how many sessions do you replace the bolts?

I buy the fasteners in bulk from mcmaster car and replace them roughly every 15-20 sessions. I use allen heads becasue I have a couple of nice stainless allen wrenches. When the fastener heads start to look like they could strip I swap them out for new. The bolts that just failed had three sessions on them.

Sorry it happened to you. I think a number of brands have anticipated something like this by a) staggering the front screws so there isn't as much an axis of rotation (a number of them) b) widening the front (Axis) and c) adding a anode to reduce corrosion (Alpine)

Even keeping the three screws in line, if the fuse were simply wider, it would reduce the minimal but still significant rocking that's happening. It means starting from a larger billet (right word?) so it would be more expensive. Not necessarily higher drag as it could be more like a fillet. Anyway, the purpose of the 1100 isn't speed anyway.

Good news is that the wing made it home safely.

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Paducah said..
Sorry it happened to you. I think a number of brands have anticipated something like this by a) staggering the front screws so there isn't as much an axis of rotation (a number of them) b) widening the front (Axis) and c) adding a anode to reduce corrosion (Alpine)

Even keeping the three screws in line, if the fuse were simply wider, it would reduce the minimal but still significant rocking that's happening. It means starting from a larger billet (right word?) so it would be more expensive. Not necessarily higher drag as it could be more like a fillet. Anyway, the purpose of the 1100 isn't speed anyway.

Good news is that the wing made it home safely.

The dang wing came launching out of the water like the Kraken! That wing has some float!

Moses has not listed the 1100 for windfoiling. I think this use is the most stressful of all. And then also with a heavy person.

Whilst there is plenty to criticise Slingshot for (fuse to mast), at least their front wing to fuse connection tries to address this area of strain. I will be disassembling and rinsing after salt water foiling in future (I noticed that the iqfoil team do this, even if they know they will be foiling the next day). Although with another lock down just begun that's probably months away....

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utcminusfour said..

ZeroVix said..
After how many sessions do you replace the bolts?

I buy the fasteners in bulk from mcmaster car and replace them roughly every 15-20 sessions. I use allen heads becasue I have a couple of nice stainless allen wrenches. When the fastener heads start to look like they could strip I swap them out for new. The bolts that just failed had three sessions on them.

Utcminusfour

sorry for all the questions but

Did you notice any corrosion on the bolts? We're they titanium or stainless?

Did they all break at once ?

Glad you recovered the wing Did it float? I know the Horues do and been meaning to test my Moses.


thanks

What kind of bolts did you use? Judging from your pictures this is clearly an issue of using low-quality fasteners. Have a look at ASTM F568M and get at least 8.8 fasteners next time.

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utcminusfour said..

ZeroVix said..
After how many sessions do you replace the bolts?

I buy the fasteners in bulk from mcmaster car and replace them roughly every 15-20 sessions. I use allen heads becasue I have a couple of nice stainless allen wrenches. When the fastener heads start to look like they could strip I swap them out for new. The bolts that just failed had three sessions on them.

That sounds right. Which fasteners from McMaster (quality) are you getting. I get mine from there too, but noticed many coming now from China (I think... need to dig in my order sheet /box to check). Honestly, your weight is not the issue. That all three sheared off with no damage would lead me to believe that the quality of bolts are an issue. And yes, we should wash our gear every time, if you are in saltwater. Hope you find a solution. Further, Moses 1100 is used for windsurfing.

I get my A4 SS screws from BoltDepot.com, they are for attaching foil to board. I still use the original torx screws supplied with my AFS foil to attach the wing/stabilizer to the mast/fuselage T-bar, they are almost 2 years old and look fine.

Big wings will exert more pressure on the screws, the W1100 is huge, you could use a smaller wing. I was told the W1100 would get me up in 8-10 knots, but I already get up in that with my AFS foil and F1080 wing.

If you want a hassle free foil go with an all carbon AFS foil, and not only is it all carbon but the wings/stab. and fuselage are solid carbon! They just came out with a new windsurfing foil and a bunch of new wings, can order from their website, just remember VAT comes off the price with an address outside of France and maybe EU?

I am suspicious of the material quality too. I am also leary of the design, the first time I rigged up the 1100 I was like, is this really gonna hold? Especially after breaking other gear at this connection. Here is what I know about the fasteners.

www.mcmaster.com/catalog/126/3222

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windfred said..

utcminusfour said..

ZeroVix said..
After how many sessions do you replace the bolts?

I buy the fasteners in bulk from mcmaster car and replace them roughly every 15-20 sessions. I use allen heads becasue I have a couple of nice stainless allen wrenches. When the fastener heads start to look like they could strip I swap them out for new. The bolts that just failed had three sessions on them.

Utcminusfour

sorry for all the questions but

Did you notice any corrosion on the bolts? We're they titanium or stainless?

Did they all break at once ?

Glad you recovered the wing Did it float? I know the Horues do and been meaning to test my Moses.


thanks

Bolts were stainless and new. The broke all at once, I think. The wing floats like mad, came launcing out of the water!

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utcminusfour said..
I am suspicious of the material quality too. I am also leary of the design, the first time I rigged up the 1100 I was like, is this really gonna hold? Especially after breaking other gear at this connection. Here is what I know about the fasteners.

www.mcmaster.com/catalog/126/3222

A2 (see label) is the cheap SS that is not very resistant to saltwater corrosion, you want A4 SS. Boltdepot also sells a SS that is much stronger than A4, but not quite as corrosion resistant, but better than A2. If you disassemble each time not an issue with it, forgot the name but it is more expensive, but nothing compared to what happened to your foil.

Those McMaster Carr fasteners are only 70,000 psi so about 480MPa minimum tensile which is what I'd regard as cheese grade. Not sure what Moses supply as standard, but I would say you really want something equivalent to at least A2-70 or A4-70, which would be minimum 700MPa tensile (100,000psi+).

The A2 or A4 basically means 304 or 316. 316 is obviously better, but 304 will generally be OK. I've found that most of the stuff readily available off the shelf in Australia is usually a mix of A2-40/A2-70 and some A4-70 tho this isn't super common in the countersunk fasteners. You do have to call around a bit.

Reference chart for you below.
www.anzor.com.au/technical/strength-and-mechanical-properties/stainless-fastener-tensile-comparison-chart

Quick filter of McMaster Carr with stuff that might be appropriate, looks like they only have the higher strength stuff in Torx or Tamper Proof Hex:
www.mcmaster.com/screws/system-of-measurement~metric/thread-size~m8/thread-size~m6/head-type~flat/material~stainless-steel/countersink-angle~90-/tensile-strength~100000-psi/tensile-strength~130000-psi/thread-spacing~coarse/drive-style~tamper-resistant-hex/drive-style~tamper-resistant-torx/drive-style~torx/

According to Boltdepot A4 is much better at resisting saltwater corrosion than A2. In freshwater not an issue obviously. From their website, 316 SS/A4 "A highly corrosion resistant grade of stainless steel. Ideal in salt water and chlorine environments".

But your still dealing with a huge wing and all the forces it can apply to those screws. I always wondered why AFS didn't make a wing bigger than the F1080 (1080 cm2). Obviously they realized the issue and since they decided to make the wings solid carbon a bigger wing would also get a lot heavier and more expensive, in addition to requiring a new press to heat and pressure cure the wing. But with careful rig/foil setup and foot placement prefoiling on my Goya Bolt 135 the F1080 is all I now need for light winds (and that includes dropping from a 9.0 to an 8.0 sail). Though there was a period of time last summer when I really thought I needed a bigger wing with my 9.0 sail, and that is why I looked into the Moses foil and W1100 wing.

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swoosh said..
Those McMaster Carr fasteners are only 70,000 psi so about 480MPa minimum tensile which is what I'd regard as cheese grade. Not sure what Moses supply as standard, but I would say you really want something equivalent to at least A2-70 or A4-70, which would be minimum 700MPa tensile (100,000psi+).

The A2 or A4 basically means 304 or 316. 316 is obviously better, but 304 will generally be OK. I've found that most of the stuff readily available off the shelf in Australia is usually a mix of A2-40/A2-70 and some A4-70 tho this isn't super common in the countersunk fasteners. You do have to call around a bit.

Reference chart for you below.
www.anzor.com.au/technical/strength-and-mechanical-properties/stainless-fastener-tensile-comparison-chart

Quick filter of McMaster Carr with stuff that might be appropriate, looks like they only have the higher strength stuff in Torx or Tamper Proof Hex:
www.mcmaster.com/screws/system-of-measurement~metric/thread-size~m8/thread-size~m6/head-type~flat/material~stainless-steel/countersink-angle~90-/tensile-strength~100000-psi/tensile-strength~130000-psi/thread-spacing~coarse/drive-style~tamper-resistant-hex/drive-style~tamper-resistant-torx/drive-style~torx/

Thanks swoosh! Thats a massive gain in tensile strength! I should have thought of that before I just bought any old stainless! And I can still get them from mcmaster! That should help keep my wings on! Now I just need to rinse my kit after each use, that will be my New Years Resoluion!

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utcminusfour said..

swoosh said..
Those McMaster Carr fasteners are only 70,000 psi so about 480MPa minimum tensile which is what I'd regard as cheese grade. Not sure what Moses supply as standard, but I would say you really want something equivalent to at least A2-70 or A4-70, which would be minimum 700MPa tensile (100,000psi+).

The A2 or A4 basically means 304 or 316. 316 is obviously better, but 304 will generally be OK. I've found that most of the stuff readily available off the shelf in Australia is usually a mix of A2-40/A2-70 and some A4-70 tho this isn't super common in the countersunk fasteners. You do have to call around a bit.

Reference chart for you below.
www.anzor.com.au/technical/strength-and-mechanical-properties/stainless-fastener-tensile-comparison-chart

Quick filter of McMaster Carr with stuff that might be appropriate, looks like they only have the higher strength stuff in Torx or Tamper Proof Hex:
www.mcmaster.com/screws/system-of-measurement~metric/thread-size~m8/thread-size~m6/head-type~flat/material~stainless-steel/countersink-angle~90-/tensile-strength~100000-psi/tensile-strength~130000-psi/thread-spacing~coarse/drive-style~tamper-resistant-hex/drive-style~tamper-resistant-torx/drive-style~torx/

Thanks swoosh! Thats a massive gain in tensile strength! I should have thought of that before I just bought any old stainless! And I can still get them from mcmaster! That should help keep my wings on! Now I just need to rinse my kit after each use, that will be my New Years Resoluion!

I like to do full dismantle all parts every time after sailing
1, rinse all parts after pull down in fresh water
2, leave dismantled at least overnight so all parts and hardware are air dried

This is not only good for the hardware but clears any fine sand that finds it's way between each component, I don't like to see any abrasion between fitted surfaces that can be avoided

Do this and your gear will reward you with greater reliability (I even do this with my full carbon)

My gear is very well used but has exceptional reliability, this does not come down the brand type or luck

If you don't have time that's OK too but expect the gear to last a lot less time

I used to run a metallurgy lab. Do not use 304. It is basically rubber. Use 316 or its ilk.

Thank you every one for you input! I will buy better fasteners and keep my kit rinsed. I will also keep looking for better gear solutions, there is still a lot of room for improved designs.

Due to the way Moses mount their wings mall the load is taken by the mounting hardware. Other brands such as Naish and Axis use a socket which takes the load, the hardware just holds the wing into the socket.
Maybe the Moses design has reached its maximum wing size without increasing the hardware size or a redesign of the attachment system.

I have just taken delivery of my w1100 and it comes with torq screws, although no more details on tensile strength or stainless grade
As a precaution I will placing tape over the 3 heads to help stop any loosening during the session.

But after reading through this thread it seems that the original screws weren't used and manufacturers advice not followed, so seems unfair to moses to have this thread title....perhaps it should be altered to advice

and its a good lesson to us all and applies to all manufactures....if replacing fasteners need to look at the finer details. You might get away with cheap 'cheese' screws on smaller wings but its really not worth it.

Looking forward to using the w1100 with small sails, unfortunately it took 3 months to get here and now its freezing in winter !

I have just taken delivery of my w1100 and it comes with torq screws, although no more details on tensile strength or stainless grade
As a precaution I will placing tape over the 3 heads to help stop any loosening during the session.

But after reading through this thread it seems that the original screws weren't used and manufacturers advice not followed, so seems unfair to moses to have this thread title....perhaps it should be altered to advice

and its a good lesson to us all and applies to all manufactures....if replacing fasteners need to look at the finer details. You might get away with cheap 'cheese' screws on smaller wings but its really not worth it.

Looking forward to using the w1100 with small sails, unfortunately it took 3 months to get here and now its freezing in winter !

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gimmesunshine said..
I have just taken delivery of my w1100 and it comes with torq screws, although no more details on tensile strength or stainless grade
As a precaution I will placing tape over the 3 heads to help stop any loosening during the session.

But after reading through this thread it seems that the original screws weren't used and manufacturers advice not followed, so seems unfair to moses to have this thread title....perhaps it should be altered to advice

and its a good lesson to us all and applies to all manufactures....if replacing fasteners need to look at the finer details. You might get away with cheap 'cheese' screws on smaller wings but its really not worth it.

Looking forward to using the w1100 with small sails, unfortunately it took 3 months to get here and now its freezing in winter !

gimmesunshine,
Thanks for your comments.
I do not see a way to change the title or else I would. The first thing I said was that I do not want to bash any brand.

I did however learn that I need to be more particular when choosing my fasteners. That is priceless info and it is likely that some else will avoid my mistake and for that reason I will sleep well in spite of my poor choice in wording.

Using higher tensile fasteners to keep my 1100 wing from Breaking Off is not going to restore my confidence while on the 1100. This experience has shown me that for the 1100 wing, my weight and skills the connection at the front wing is overloaded. As PatK said Moses does not list the 1100 as a windfoil wing. Yet we as a online community have many posts about doing just that successfully. I still feel this was good thing to post because it shows everyone where one of the physical limits are.

I am still fired up and look forward to exploring other gear options. We are at the Begining of a New sport and we have the oppurtunity to be part of the evolution of the gear. If we do not share all the experiences, how can we learn?

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utcminusfour said..

gimmesunshine said..
I have just taken delivery of my w1100 and it comes with torq screws, although no more details on tensile strength or stainless grade
As a precaution I will placing tape over the 3 heads to help stop any loosening during the session.

But after reading through this thread it seems that the original screws weren't used and manufacturers advice not followed, so seems unfair to moses to have this thread title....perhaps it should be altered to advice

and its a good lesson to us all and applies to all manufactures....if replacing fasteners need to look at the finer details. You might get away with cheap 'cheese' screws on smaller wings but its really not worth it.

Looking forward to using the w1100 with small sails, unfortunately it took 3 months to get here and now its freezing in winter !

gimmesunshine,
Thanks for your comments.
I do not see a way to change the title or else I would. The first thing I said was that I do not want to bash any brand.

I did however learn that I need to be more particular when choosing my fasteners. That is priceless info and it is likely that some else will avoid my mistake and for that reason I will sleep well in spite of my poor choice in wording.

Using higher tensile fasteners to keep my 1100 wing from Breaking Off is not going to restore my confidence while on the 1100. This experience has shown me that for the 1100 wing, my weight and skills the connection at the front wing is overloaded. As PatK said Moses does not list the 1100 as a windfoil wing. Yet we as a online community have many posts about doing just that successfully. I still feel this was good thing to post because it shows everyone where one of the physical limits are.

I am still fired up and look forward to exploring other gear options. We are at the Begining of a New sport and we have the oppurtunity to be part of the evolution of the gear. If we do not share all the experiences, how can we learn?

Gimmesunshine, what happened to your original wing screws for the Moses foil?

Maybe in the future we will see some M8 fasteners instead of M6. Severne red wing foil has M8 for the mast/board connection. Would make sense to have them also at the rest of the foil, except the rear wing of course.
Would be interesting to see which other part will give up then

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PatK said..
Maybe in the future we will see some M8 fasteners instead of M6. Severne red wing foil has M8 for the mast/board connection. Would make sense to have them also at the rest of the foil, except the rear wing of course.
Would be interesting to see which other part will give up then

We want the wings to fall off before the fuse bends and way before the mast breaks. Ideally the board in way of the foil would be the strongest part of the system. This is typically achieved by staggering the safety factors of each component so that the parts that must not fail have the highest factors. Both times I have ripped wings loose I got back in without drama and brought all the parts back home. That's the way it should be. Now it would be great if I could get a big wing that could tolerate me jumping it.

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utcminusfour said..

PatK said..
Maybe in the future we will see some M8 fasteners instead of M6. Severne red wing foil has M8 for the mast/board connection. Would make sense to have them also at the rest of the foil, except the rear wing of course.
Would be interesting to see which other part will give up then

We want the wings to fall off before the fuse bends and way before the mast breaks. Ideally the board in way of the foil would be the strongest part of the system. This is typically achieved by staggering the safety factors of each component so that the parts that must not fail have the highest factors. Both times I have ripped wings loose I got back in without drama and brought all the parts back home. That's the way it should be. Now it would be great if I could get a big wing that could tolerate me jumping it.

That is just crazy talk to someone who has hit sandbars full speed on a foil and just got back on the board without even thinking the foil would be damaged, that is what happens when you have a one piece mast/fuse in carbon and solid carbon wings. In the end it is cheaper to go all carbon for a foil from a company that builds their foils to last. And the AFS 85 foil cost less than the Moses foil.

Sandman,
I have plowed into countless sand bars and hit all sorts of UFO's and even have hit crab traps!
That's not the highest load because the rider just gets launched immediately. Thankfully it's not like running a boat aground or I would gotten hurt by now.

It's levering a big wing span up with a wide board or even worse landing a jump wrong, those are the gear busters. I bet Balz Muller could break or probably has broken every foil on the market..

There is a lot I like about the AFS foils! And I have seriosly consider them myself. In fact I even recomended them to a friend who is a talented performance oriented windsurfer.

But I have gotten a taste for wings like the Moses 1100 and there is nothing similar in there line up that attaches to their windsurfing fuse. It is also worth noting that Sailworks no longer offer this gear on the web site.

We hear man, you love your kit. And I get it, it sounds like the perfect set up for you. I love my kit too, I am just patiently waiting and looking for something even better.

should rename the topic : bolt issue

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utcminusfour said..
Sandman,
I have plowed into countless sand bars and hit all sorts of UFO's and even have hit crab traps!
That's not the highest load because the rider just gets launched immediately. Thankfully it's not like running a boat aground or I would gotten hurt by now.

It's levering a big wing span up with a wide board or even worse landing a jump wrong, those are the gear busters. I bet Balz Muller could break or probably has broken every foil on the market..

There is a lot I like about the AFS foils! And I have seriosly consider them myself. In fact I even recomended them to a friend who is a talented performance oriented windsurfer.

But I have gotten a taste for wings like the Moses 1100 and there is nothing similar in there line up that attaches to their windsurfing fuse. It is also worth noting that Sailworks no longer offer this gear on the web site.

We hear man, you love your kit. And I get it, it sounds like the perfect set up for you. I love my kit too, I am just patiently waiting and looking for something even better.

utcminusfour I have not tried the new AFS race R810 wing, but it is rated for lower winds (7-20 knots) than the F1080 which I use in 8-10 knots and is rated by AFS for 8-10 knots. Main reason for not trying R810 is it uses a different stab than I use for my F1080 and I figure it requires a little more pumping to get up in the bottom wind range due to the reduced surface area (810 versus 1080), but I have not tried so just guessing. Though from what I have read here race wings have less resistance so are easier to pump up. I was very interested in the W1100, but the guys at Sailworks told me it would get me up in 8-10 (based on my weight) and since I already get up in that with my AFS F1080 I did not see the point and figured I would only go slower on the W1100 due to more drag, it is a huge wing about 2X the surface area of the AFS F1080 and a lot thicker. Plus Moses uses an aluminum fuse, and I wanted an all carbon foil for saltwater use.