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miamiwindsurfe said..


FYI: he accidently ordered 2 front wings 186cm Sirius? , so, if someone what a great deal on a new jumbo front wing from Gong, text me

How does it turn? Seems like at low speed, it would be susceptible to tip stall. Years ago I had the Horue XXLW - very wide and high aspect for the time. It would foil in almost nothing. As long as your were going straight, it was fun. But jibes were elusive. The inside wing would just fall out mid turn.

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Paducah said..

miamiwindsurfe said..


FYI: he accidently ordered 2 front wings 186cm Sirius? , so, if someone what a great deal on a new jumbo front wing from Gong, text me

How does it turn? Seems like at low speed, it would be susceptible to tip stall. Years ago I had the Horue XXLW - very wide and high aspect for the time. It would foil in almost nothing. As long as your were going straight, it was fun. But jibes were elusive. The inside wing would just fall out mid turn.

As long as you don't force it into tight turn, let it do it's natural radius for it's size, it actually should be easy, this friend of mine actually never complimented air jibe, but with new toys, told me he was closer than ever. I did try it few months back, on regular foil board, I'm 135lb, had to be super careful , way too much lift for me coming from that thing

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miamiwindsurfe said..

Paducah said..

miamiwindsurfe said..


FYI: he accidently ordered 2 front wings 186cm Sirius? , so, if someone what a great deal on a new jumbo front wing from Gong, text me

How does it turn? Seems like at low speed, it would be susceptible to tip stall. Years ago I had the Horue XXLW - very wide and high aspect for the time. It would foil in almost nothing. As long as your were going straight, it was fun. But jibes were elusive. The inside wing would just fall out mid turn.

As long as you don't force it into tight turn, let it do it's natural radius for it's size, it actually should be easy, this friend of mine actually never complimented air jibe, but with new toys, told me he was closer than ever. I did try it few months back, on regular foil board, I'm 135lb, had to be super careful , way too much lift for me coming from that thing

Great to hear. Sounds like maybe I was forcing a tighter radius on it. I'm used to hammering the turns on my AFS and that doesn't always translate well to more freeride wings.

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miamiwindsurfe said..

miamiwindsurfe said..


Friend of mine just received custom down winder board with mast track as you can see, we should be testing it soon on a light wind day. First time KT added mast track on this type of a board. Friend of my planning to pair of this board with 186 cm span front wing from Gong, but we planning to test smaller ones too

Another update, after few days of testing we agreed that mast track(for sail)was too far forward, so board went back to KT and they installed another track back. My friend just got it and had a chance to try it, very happy now, board and rig feel balanced now and even with smaller sail, but that huge front wing, it takes off on nothing, I should be able to try it in a month, will post photos and more details then

This is a follow up, got a chance to test it in 4-7 kn conditions.
The hope was the displacement downwind board with sail would be able, with proper pumping, generate speed of> 7 kn to engage that huge front wing. The problem is board is too narrow and becomes unstable with aggressive pumping, so no matter what I tried with my 5.1m2 goya cypher it didn't work, bigger sail on that board would be very uncomfortable. So, my conclusion that regular good foil board could be pumped better, generate more speed under the same conditions.

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miamiwindsurfe said..

miamiwindsurfe said..

miamiwindsurfe said..


Friend of mine just received custom down winder board with mast track as you can see, we should be testing it soon on a light wind day. First time KT added mast track on this type of a board. Friend of my planning to pair of this board with 186 cm span front wing from Gong, but we planning to test smaller ones too

Another update, after few days of testing we agreed that mast track(for sail)was too far forward, so board went back to KT and they installed another track back. My friend just got it and had a chance to try it, very happy now, board and rig feel balanced now and even with smaller sail, but that huge front wing, it takes off on nothing, I should be able to try it in a month, will post photos and more details then

This is a follow up, got a chance to test it in 4-7 kn conditions.
The hope was the displacement downwind board with sail would be able, with proper pumping, generate speed of> 7 kn to engage that huge front wing. The problem is board is too narrow and becomes unstable with aggressive pumping, so no matter what I tried with my 5.1m2 goya cypher it didn't work, bigger sail on that board would be very uncomfortable. So, my conclusion that regular good foil board could be pumped better, generate more speed under the same conditions.

Interesting thanks

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miamiwindsurfe said..

miamiwindsurfe said..

miamiwindsurfe said..


Friend of mine just received custom down winder board with mast track as you can see, we should be testing it soon on a light wind day. First time KT added mast track on this type of a board. Friend of my planning to pair of this board with 186 cm span front wing from Gong, but we planning to test smaller ones too

Another update, after few days of testing we agreed that mast track(for sail)was too far forward, so board went back to KT and they installed another track back. My friend just got it and had a chance to try it, very happy now, board and rig feel balanced now and even with smaller sail, but that huge front wing, it takes off on nothing, I should be able to try it in a month, will post photos and more details then

This is a follow up, got a chance to test it in 4-7 kn conditions.
The hope was the displacement downwind board with sail would be able, with proper pumping, generate speed of> 7 kn to engage that huge front wing. The problem is board is too narrow and becomes unstable with aggressive pumping, so no matter what I tried with my 5.1m2 goya cypher it didn't work, bigger sail on that board would be very uncomfortable. So, my conclusion that regular good foil board could be pumped better, generate more speed under the same conditions.

Okay let's take the focus off the hull for a second. Can you keep playing with that huge front wing on another hull that is more stable? I am curious because the pump foilers seem to be able to stop pumping and glide at what looks like 4-5 knots and the specs on these wings talk about top speeds in the teens. I really feel like there is something fun here that is being overlooked at least for some. For sure breaching the tips in turns will be an issue but one that skill (or a longer foil mast) can deal with, I mean Balz keeps carving with half the wing out and I can often recover from a breached tip now. I am so curious if the glide can make foiling transitions easier (UW/DW 360's and foiling tacks) and allow windfoiling in sub 10 without big cambered sails. Anyone have data on pump foil speeds or tried this? I just keep thinking about how much fun I have had on planning dingys sailing great upwind angles at five knots, getting way upwind then turning downhill and planning off at speed in the teens and never ever worrying about getting in if the wind dies.

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utcminusfour said..

miamiwindsurfe said..

miamiwindsurfe said..

miamiwindsurfe said..


Friend of mine just received custom down winder board with mast track as you can see, we should be testing it soon on a light wind day. First time KT added mast track on this type of a board. Friend of my planning to pair of this board with 186 cm span front wing from Gong, but we planning to test smaller ones too

Another update, after few days of testing we agreed that mast track(for sail)was too far forward, so board went back to KT and they installed another track back. My friend just got it and had a chance to try it, very happy now, board and rig feel balanced now and even with smaller sail, but that huge front wing, it takes off on nothing, I should be able to try it in a month, will post photos and more details then

This is a follow up, got a chance to test it in 4-7 kn conditions.
The hope was the displacement downwind board with sail would be able, with proper pumping, generate speed of> 7 kn to engage that huge front wing. The problem is board is too narrow and becomes unstable with aggressive pumping, so no matter what I tried with my 5.1m2 goya cypher it didn't work, bigger sail on that board would be very uncomfortable. So, my conclusion that regular good foil board could be pumped better, generate more speed under the same conditions.

Okay let's take the focus off the hull for a second. Can you keep playing with that huge front wing on another hull that is more stable? I am curious because the pump foilers seem to be able to stop pumping and glide at what looks like 4-5 knots and the specs on these wings talk about top speeds in the teens. I really feel like there is something fun here that is being overlooked at least for some. For sure breaching the tips in turns will be an issue but one that skill (or a longer foil mast) can deal with, I mean Balz keeps carving with half the wing out and I can often recover from a breached tip now. I am so curious if the glide can make foiling transitions easier (UW/DW 360's and foiling tacks) and allow windfoiling in sub 10 without big cambered sails. Anyone have data on pump foil speeds or tried this? I just keep thinking about how much fun I have had on planning dingys sailing great upwind angles at five knots, getting way upwind then turning downhill and planning off at speed in the teens and never ever worrying about getting in if the wind dies.

I like the idea. Like a FoilWindsup always meant to be foiling even in very light air, not meant for high speed at all, no need for a daggerboard anymore either. Especially when you throw in the idea of really lightwind freestyle foiling moves. Some of those huge pump wings seem like they would make it feasible.

Aero,you are starting to feel me! Float and foil! As you enter your light air season in Florida doesn't this concept sound interesting? I am only one person with limited resources. This weekend as I daydreamed and dreamed in my sleep about this stuff I decided to try and get some help. Hopefully these posts can get some folks trying things and sharing the findings.
I would love to try the gear that the wake thief is bringing to market for light air windfoil. He has quantum leaped what he can do pump foiling do because of the new gear.

I have some thoughts on sails too and I have the tools to build them but again, I'm spread too thin to do it all or even some of it.

Here is something different. Haven't got it wet yet. There are foot strap inserts but don't intend to use them.

Wow mate you must be excited,can't wait to see it on the water

Very cool, dimensions?

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mr love said..
Very cool, dimensions?

225 x 65 x 133L - I'm 93Kg.

How long are the tracks? Is it a dual purpose board?

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utcminusfour said..
I am so curious if the glide can make foiling transitions easier (UW/DW 360's and foiling tacks) and allow windfoiling in sub 10 without big cambered sails.

I'd think so. The story of a prone surf foiler comes to mind who picked up winging, and foiled through tacks in one of his first tries. He was just pumping along the whole time - turning and pumping was simply the most natural thing for him to do. Not sure how that would work with a windfoil tack when you have to get around the mast, but for 360s, better glide and a few pumps to say up seem doable.

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boardsurfr said..

utcminusfour said..
I am so curious if the glide can make foiling transitions easier (UW/DW 360's and foiling tacks) and allow windfoiling in sub 10 without big cambered sails.

I'd think so. The story of a prone surf foiler comes to mind who picked up winging, and foiled through tacks in one of his first tries. He was just pumping along the whole time - turning and pumping was simply the most natural thing for him to do. Not sure how that would work with a windfoil tack when you have to get around the mast, but for 360s, better glide and a few pumps to say up seem doable.

No need to go around the mast facing the wrong way. Heli tacks and duck tacks make too much sense for small sails, face forward and stay put.

Had a go on a loaner AXIS PNG 1310 on a 680 fuse today. There actually was decent breeze but the way it took off in the wind shadow near the beach I knew instantly that there is something here that I want to explore further. It was interesting, it was all about foil pumping and less about the sail. In fact if I was bouncing it vertically it would often take off when I eased the sail reducing mast base preassure. I need more time with this type of gear to comment further but when my budget allows I will add a foil like this to the quiver.

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dantren said..

mr love said..
Very cool, dimensions?

225 x 65 x 133L - I'm 93Kg.

I really dig it Dan! Thanks for what you do mate! What foils are you working with these days or plan to pair this with?

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Paducah said..
How long are the tracks? Is it a dual purpose board?

Mast track is 280.
Foil tracks are 420.
There is 620 from rear of the mast track to the front of the foil tracks.
It is a windfoil board, but I thought I'd throw in a leash point - sometimes I rig up on my boat and I need something to tie off to.

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utcminusfour said..

dantren said..

mr love said..
Very cool, dimensions?

225 x 65 x 133L - I'm 93Kg.

I really dig it Dan! Thanks for what you do mate! What foils are you working with these days or plan to pair this with?

My Naish foil is out of action since the fuselage cracked, so now I'm on a Duotone 905. wing set with 85 Ally mast. I've only had two sessions on this so still figuring out the limits. Hardware is so much better than Naish though.

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swoosh said..
Interesting it didn't work out. Anything to do with volume distribution? Feels like it could do with more volume behind the mast track, but at 145L it should have plenty of volume everywhere. Wingfoiling narrow boards with feet on centreline seems fine, because you don't have that interaction with the sail and fixed mast base position. For me I also found that between winging and windfoiling, you can sail pump a lot more powerfully with the sail when windfoiling, in comparison winging you do more board pumping, because pumping the wing hard is basically like trashing a plastic bag in the air in comparison.

I had also drawn up a Kalama inspired design a while back, but never got around to getting it built, but had quite a different design philosophy. Throw up some images in case it is of any interest to anyone. I went with Kalama E3 inspired chines underneath rather than cutouts, and a scow bow type nose. I found when windfoiling I've always preferred a board with more width and outboard feet position. My goal was to get plenty of volume and width under my feet, so you can jump into straps early and pump efficiently. And it was short because I wanted to be able to fit it inside the car without having to fold seats down ?? . I think it ended up around 158cm x 65cm x 95L? Still needed to tidy up some of the surfaces and tweak the nose.

Top

Bottom

Rocker

Tail

Thank you swoosh for posting those design thoughts, the board you drafted seem interesting.

These days it seems industry has abandoned wind foiling in favor of the more convenient and easy to learn for newbies wing foiling.

so development for the freeride part has stopped.
You are right that on winging the most part of the pumping is coming from foil pumping and the sail pump is more a way to balance and coordinate while pumping with the legs.
windfoiling should take advantage from the better aero performance of the sail, even a wave sail should be better performing than a wing, though pumping the foil I feel is more difficult, the rocking effect is much lower because of the rider weight shifted to the back of the board and normally the longher fuse we use makes everything more rigid on the pich axis.

To me the canoe body is the best performing design for sub planning speeds, problem is the aspect ratio is way higher than a kalama style board. a downwinder on a sup board kalama style get's up and going because of the pumping on the foil, and narrow tail and bow of the board helkp to dig into the water (just see Blaz Muller starting from zero speed doing that). Getting flying just because reaching foil flight speed would be impossible if relying only on the low drag of the board to reach significant subplanning speeds.

For this reason, I think the route should be to develop a design which allow a more efficient pumping instead of aiming to reduce drag as the only mean to get going in light winds.
With foiling, given the so low drag when you are up on the foil vs the drag that you have on the water watever the design, the strategy need to be to try the way to get up the earliest using the foil and the sail.
Even the America's cup design is not something we may aim at, the power they get from the huge sail surface is not something we can get on a windsurf boasrd (My idea of freeriding is not getting a 12 meter sail and go foiling), so that route to me doesn't make sense either.

On your board design; I have a question if I may ask: The stern of the board has a reduced flat surface and a bottom drop shape from nose to tail, so the rails are not fat and straight but crved and tucked...in your experience when pumping the board is this not leading to the board rocking right to left istead of getting power and going straight?

Cheers

Edoardo