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Sandman1221 said..

Francone said..

antonmik said..

FRPGear said..
Ability to invent and talent to sale could be conflicting skill sets that do not coexist in one package.
This old video is more relevant:

Antonmik

A few words regarding your conclusion that the seller has made false claims about the minifoil , because , while raising the tail , it would make the nose of the board plunge in the water, thereby stopping the board in its tracks...

I'm looking into this minifoil myself. It is certainly true that salesmanship and honesty do not always go hand in hand, but there are perhaps other things to consider before concluding that we have been lied to....

First, the fact that the minifoil raises the tail of the board is already a good sign that it does provide lift.
If the nose plunges, is it really a flaw in the design or rather a question of technique? Perhaps the nose dive can be be corrected by shifting the body towards the tail to counterbalance it. Did you try this? This is necessary even on regular foils, where you can adjust the lift and have the board sit higher or lower on the water ( hence correct the nose dip) by shifting the weight..

I'd also consider other variables in the equation: the type of board, the sailor's skill, the weight and the wind conditions. Shifting the rig backward or forward along the mastfoot rail can also correct the nose dive...

Secondly, and more importantly, FRP has a 30 days full refund return warranty. This speaks to the seller' s good will. Why should one complain that the minifoil is not working and that he has been lied to when he could have returned it for a full refund?

Francone

Fracone, do you know of anyone who returned a minifoil to FRP within the first 30 days and got a full refund?

I returned his foil by mail and did not return all the money to me

For the fun fact of a foil being unflyable without a stab. Yup, there is a reason why they call a stabilizer a "stabilizer."

Thanks, however, since I have wondered whether you could fly a front-only wingl just on your own balance. Sounds like you can't.

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Sandman1221 said..

Francone said..

antonmik said..

FRPGear said..
Ability to invent and talent to sale could be conflicting skill sets that do not coexist in one package.
This old video is more relevant:

Antonmik

A few words regarding your conclusion that the seller has made false claims about the minifoil , because , while raising the tail , it would make the nose of the board plunge in the water, thereby stopping the board in its tracks...

I'm looking into this minifoil myself. It is certainly true that salesmanship and honesty do not always go hand in hand, but there are perhaps other things to consider before concluding that we have been lied to....

First, the fact that the minifoil raises the tail of the board is already a good sign that it does provide lift.
If the nose plunges, is it really a flaw in the design or rather a question of technique? Perhaps the nose dive can be be corrected by shifting the body towards the tail to counterbalance it. Did you try this? This is necessary even on regular foils, where you can adjust the lift and have the board sit higher or lower on the water ( hence correct the nose dip) by shifting the weight..

I'd also consider other variables in the equation: the type of board, the sailor's skill, the weight and the wind conditions. Shifting the rig backward or forward along the mastfoot rail can also correct the nose dive...

Secondly, and more importantly, FRP has a 30 days full refund return warranty. This speaks to the seller' s good will. Why should one complain that the minifoil is not working and that he has been lied to when he could have returned it for a full refund?

Francone

Fracone, do you know of anyone who returned a minifoil to FRP within the first 30 days and got a full refund?

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Sandman1221 said..

Francone said..

antonmik said..

FRPGear said..
Ability to invent and talent to sale could be conflicting skill sets that do not coexist in one package.
This old video is more relevant:

Antonmik

A few words regarding your conclusion that the seller has made false claims about the minifoil , because , while raising the tail , it would make the nose of the board plunge in the water, thereby stopping the board in its tracks...

I'm looking into this minifoil myself. It is certainly true that salesmanship and honesty do not always go hand in hand, but there are perhaps other things to consider before concluding that we have been lied to....

First, the fact that the minifoil raises the tail of the board is already a good sign that it does provide lift.
If the nose plunges, is it really a flaw in the design or rather a question of technique? Perhaps the nose dive can be be corrected by shifting the body towards the tail to counterbalance it. Did you try this? This is necessary even on regular foils, where you can adjust the lift and have the board sit higher or lower on the water ( hence correct the nose dip) by shifting the weight..

I'd also consider other variables in the equation: the type of board, the sailor's skill, the weight and the wind conditions. Shifting the rig backward or forward along the mastfoot rail can also correct the nose dive...

Secondly, and more importantly, FRP has a 30 days full refund return warranty. This speaks to the seller' s good will. Why should one complain that the minifoil is not working and that he has been lied to when he could have returned it for a full refund?

Francone

Fracone, do you know of anyone who returned a minifoil to FRP within the first 30 days and got a full refund?

Sandman1221

There are two issues here:
a. .The minifoil allegedly does not work.

b. The seller is making false claims about it.
I'll note that the even if a) were true, this would not automatically entail the truth of b)

Let's get to the point.
When you ask me if I know of somebody who has returned the minifoil and received his money back, you seem to be concerned with point b) because you read perhaps somebody's complaint in this forum that the minifoil doesn't work and that he has therefore(?) been lied to.

To answer your question, no, honestly, I don't know of anybody who has returned this minifoil for a full refund and whether he received it or not, but I don't see the point of asking this question. What are you driving at?

Not being able to prove that somebody is not dishonest( note my negative phrasing) does not prove that he IS so.
This is the problem with negative proofs.

Whether or not something is the case ( honesty or quality of the product) can be reliably assessed only by producing evidence of his behavior.
No hearsay chatter can be such evidence. Until then, no conclusions can ( and should) be drawn, both logically and legally.

In a forum like this, unlike in a court of law, I am willing to keep the bar of evidence low and to believe anybody telling us that he or she has tested the minifoil and he or she has returned it for refund, but he never received it.

Some in this Forum accuse me of doggedly defending this product, in spite of everybody telling me that it is not reliable.
Incidentally, if you read the iWindsurf posts on this issue, you will see that this "everybody" is an overstatement, because there have been quite a few positive comments, too.

Please understand, I am not defending this product. I don't know enough about it. May be the product IS flawed and there have been false claims made about it , but intellectual honesty tells me that I owe it to myself to come to this conclusion only after being satisfied that people speak out of personal experience and not out of hearsay, as seems to be the case so far..
This is all I am saying.
Until then, let's put the issue to rest. As somebody said, there have been too many..electrons spilled on this..

Francone

Francone, do us all a favor. Buy the product, test it, post the video and if not happy return within 30 days. Simple solution. We would all like to know and you would contribute to the foiling community.

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ZeroVix said..
Francone, do us all a favor. Buy the product, test it, post the video and if not happy return within 30 days. Simple solution. We would all like to know and you would contribute to the foiling community.

No need to ask. This has always been my intention. And if you all are right, I'll be glad to admit it, but at least it will have been out of my personal experience, while I'm still waiting to hear about other people's bad experience on this.

Francone

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segler said..
For the fun fact of a foil being unflyable without a stab. Yup, there is a reason why they call a stabilizer a "stabilizer."

Thanks, however, since I have wondered whether you could fly a front-only wingl just on your own balance. Sounds like you can't.

I think a design could be developed, I know kiter foilers use them. But I don't think it would perform very well in much the same way as it's not used for performance aircraft.

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Paducah said..

basically has a 30cm mast. We're all looking forward to a video of you flying this thing for 30 seconds. Show me a verifiable video of it flying 2 min and I'll buy you dinner.

I fly a little better on my fin than this guy on zfin:

How about me buying a dinner to anyone who posts a flying fin video better than my son:


I sale on eBay for 10+ years. It is impossible for a seller do not refund if the buyer provided a tracking number of the return shipment during a refund period. Note, eBay (PayPal before 2020) needs just the tracking number in order to issue a refund. If the buyer returned an empty box by a mistake, eBay still refunds. Situation like antonmik is impossible unless did not meet eBay requirements. I do not have my own merchant account like Starboard, for example. Because Starboard deals with customers directly you need an approval for a refund from Starboard. Someone from Starboard will validate foil damage and decide if you used it correctly. If your sale on eBay you cannot approve or reject a refund. eBay does. If eBay customer requests a refund eBay gives your money to the customer regardless if the product was incorrectly used or it was present in the returning box.
I think that you do not find true comments about not getting an eBay refund because it is an impossible situation. I have seen two comments including this forum who received my refunds.
I will double $400 that antonmik asking from Russia if he makes a video that is not cut and paste from my YouTube videos made in Virginia, USA.

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FRPGear said..

Paducah said..

basically has a 30cm mast. We're all looking forward to a video of you flying this thing for 30 seconds. Show me a verifiable video of it flying 2 min and I'll buy you dinner.

I fly a little better on my fin than this guy on zfin:

How about me buying a dinner to anyone who posts a flying fin video better than my son:

I sale on eBay for 10+ years. It is impossible for a seller do not refund if the buyer provided a tracking number of the return shipment during a refund period. Note, eBay (PayPal before 2020) needs just the tracking number in order to issue a refund. If the buyer returned an empty box by a mistake, eBay still refunds. Situation like antonmik is impossible unless did not meet eBay requirements. I do not have my own merchant account like Starboard, for example. Because Starboard deals with customers directly you need an approval for a refund from Starboard. Someone from Starboard will validate foil damage and decide if you used it correctly. If your sale on eBay you cannot approve or reject a refund. eBay does. If eBay customer requests a refund eBay gives your money to the customer regardless if the product was incorrectly used or it was present in the returning box.
I think that you do not find true comments about not getting an eBay refund because it is an impossible situation. I have seen two comments including this forum who received my refunds.
I will double $400 that antonmik asking from Russia if he makes a video that is not cut and paste from my YouTube videos made in Virginia, USA.

Oh yeah
you have convinced me with that video
i Want to get rid of all my other fins and foil gear and buy one of your awesome fly fins
as for your sailing rings around them video
how did you find so many crap sailers in one area
If you want to be believed about performance
post some valid data like maybe wind speeds sail size and gps data to back up your supposed great fins not a dodgy video of you drag racing some obviously not very good sailors.

Over 10 years ago, the same guy you showed on Z fin. Wonder what looks better, faster and flying even at that time.



I wonder if you recognize who this guy is on the Gaastra Vapor board? A real foil in 2018.

?t=34

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FRPGear said..

I fly a little better on my fin than this guy on zfin:

FFS, you don't even understand what the expression "flying the fin" means for formula (or other conventional) fins. They aren't using some little wingy thing like you think but using the flex of specifically designed conventional fins.

You should probably buy me a dinner for having to teach you this.

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ratz said: "...how did you find so many crap sailers in one area..."

That was a normal day during windsurfing season at OBX a.k.a. Canadian Hole in the USA. Most of the sailors on that video are experiencing not enough wind. Do you think this sailor will look better when it is not enough wind?

Paducah will explain how Niko Prien lifts the back of the board at 4:19 without nose diving and I will arrange his dinner.
I just want to add what Nico is demonstrating at 4:19 in strong wind is similar to what Alexey is demonstrating in lighter wind. Despite his skill level compared to Nico a smoother ride comes automatically to Alexey thanks to a better lifting fin design:

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FRPGear said..
Paducah will explain how Niko Prien lifts the back of the board at 4:19 without nose diving and I will arrange his dinner.

His board is totally wound up - he's probably going 30+ kts. It is not in an early planing regime nor is he worried about early planing with that gear. It's like comparing the stubby swept wings on a supersonic jet to the straight HA wings of a glider. A glider will never operate in the transonic zone so the design parameters are completely different.

If you note, he is riding on about the last 30-45 cm of his board. You will also note that his board has tail cut outs which REDUCE the lift from the back of the board. He doesn't want any more lift from the board. At that speed, it's about reducing wetted surface while still maintaining control.

I'm a vegan (no added oil) so you can send me anything that fits that.

Since you like Nico P vids here's one on early planing which is what we were supposed to be talking about. Look at 4:45 where he's actually sinking the tail to encourage planing (the big white arrow pointing down at his back foot). For this, you can send dessert to Grantmac.

Going back to the initial question. Are Mini Foils worthwhile. For me the answer is no. For most of us, the holy grail of foiling, is sustained stable flight in a straight line and transitions. These aspirations are easily achievable with the current 2nd and 3rd generation foil designs. Why would you go backwards and waste money on something that may or may not work when you can buy a second hand 2nd generation foil for the same money that you know will work.

Paducah did not explain me how minifoil lifts the whole board, and not just the back because he never surfed a minifoil. Nico goes for sure 30- knots on his video fo lifting fin.
I will buy him a dinner as promised. Paducah has been working hard here and at other places. Hard work is always appreciated and respected. 1500 comments in 4 years, or a comment pro day is a dedication to the sport. I particularly recognize Paducah dedication in criticizing frpgear products since 2017. His dinner of recognition will be paid by the money that he could not save for current frpgear customers.
Sebastian Kornum explans how to ride a lifting fin and Alexey follows the instructions. Listen on 5:25


Summary of our work completed here:
- 17 sailors participated
- 7 videos of minifoil in action presented
- 1 participant has been on a minifoil since 2017
Francone, did you get all the answers you needed?

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FRPGear said..
Paducah did not explain me how minifoil lifts the whole board, and not just the back because he never surfed a minifoil. Nico goes for sure 30- knots on his video fo lifting fin.
I will buy him a dinner as promised. Paducah has been working hard here and at other places. Hard work is always appreciated and respected. 1500 comments in 4 years, or a comment pro day is a dedication to the sport. I particularly recognize Paducah dedication in criticizing frpgear products since 2017. His dinner of recognition will be paid by the money that he could not save for current frpgear customers.
Sebastian Kornum explans how to ride a lifting fin and Alexey follows the instructions. Listen on 5:25

Summary of our work completed here:
- 17 sailors participated
- 7 videos of minifoil in action presented
- 1 participant has been on a minifoil since 2017
Francone, did you get all the answers you needed?

You missed one vital statistic in the above responses
- 0 independent favourable reviews of the mini foil

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John340 said..You missed one vital statistic in the above response - 0 independent favourable reviews of the mini foil

It is like to say: 0 experts here tested a minifoil while all of them commented on minifoil performance.
Sorry, only completed work goes into the completed work summary.
Review from Australia: kitetracker.com/gps/tracking?r=OceanAddict_1e