As a windsurfer on a budget, I was wondering if minifoils help to reach the planing level in light winds.. I weigh 90 kg and I just bought a ( Bic) Tahe Techno WF 160l board, with the intention to get into full fledge foiling later on,( or perhaps never, hopefully, if the minifoil is good to give enough lift for planing .
They look interesting: a simple fin with large wings at the end. They may not give the stability and performance of a regular, two-wings foil, but if people are able to plane on a regular fin, I don't see why the two wings at the end wouldn't help...Or perhaps I'm wrong. I am not interested in surfing 1 m. above the water, after all, just good old planing as easy as possible..
Has anybody tried it?

Thanks

Francone

About 5 years ago, someone was making a g-10 foil mast with attached foil, to achieve what you are looking for.
Now, it appears a high level slalom racer has applied the idea, and it seems to work.

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Francone said..
As a windsurfer on a budget, I was wondering if minifoils help to reach the planing level in light winds.. I weigh 90 kg and I just bought a ( Bic) Tahe Techno WF 160l board, with the intention to get into full fledge foiling later on,( or perhaps never, hopefully, if the minifoil is good to give enough lift for planing .
They look interesting: a simple fin with large wings at the end. They may not give the stability and performance of a regular, two-wings foil, but if people are able to plane on a regular fin, I don't see why the two wings at the end wouldn't help...Or perhaps I'm wrong. I am not interested in surfing 1 m. above the water, after all, just good old planing as easy as possible..
Has anybody tried it?

Thanks

Francone

there are very inexpensive aluminum foils available for around $700, think Windancer might still sell them, you can plane on a foil too and stay planing if you set it up right.

If you are talking about the rubbish on ebay, pretty much no. Whatever lifting they do (which is remarkably little at subplaning speeds), they do in the wrong spot. They are behind the center of gravity and effectively push the nose down.

Save your money for a real used foil or just a good older wide board with a quality fin. When foils first hit the scene, they were quite expensive and people were looking for any way to avoid the cost. It was an idea that a few explored but the performance/fun improvement from real foils was so big that it was quickly apparent that the "mini-foils" were a bit of a dead end. Even their biggest proponent here ended up just making a real (but not very good) foil.

If it's any consolation, at least 90% of the people I know who've tried foiling, end up liking it enough to buy more/better gear in a way they haven't in years.

Francone wants to plane, not fly.
Winglets do lift, but also drag once lift is achieved. So planing moderately powered becomes a fight between lifting and tail touching.
A small enough winglet/mast would have low drag, but would want to lift...no control..
To fly, it seems modern foil stab and foil is working.
To plane, speed range might be tiny.

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LeeD said..
Francone wants to plane, not fly.
Winglets do lift, but also drag once lift is achieved. So planing moderately powered becomes a fight between lifting and tail touching.
A small enough winglet/mast would have low drag, but would want to lift...no control..
To fly, it seems modern foil stab and foil is working.
To plane, speed range might be tiny.

Reread his post. He's open to flying. What he ultimately wants is to not shlog around. His budget seems very restricted (and that's okay). But, imho, throwing money at the "foilfins" won't measurably help (at best) especially when a good used foil is almost within reach. For a couple hundred more than a minifoil/foilfin he can get a used NP Glide or Slingshot. They will help him measurably and if he later feels it's not his thing, he can sell it losing very little if anything.

Maybe I'm American, but it sure looks like full fledged windfoiling is NOT on Francone's radar anytime soon.
He's asking about that fin with a small wing attached in the middle along it's chord.
Much ado around 4 years ago about it.
I reco against it, because of tiny wind range.
A tuttle foil, used, should run around $450.

Ya gotta pay to play.

A fool and his money are soon parted.

He's asked this question before, gotten the answer that they don't work and keeps asking waiting for a different response. Let him waste his money and find out for himself.

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Grantmac said..
A fool and his money are soon parted.

He's asked this question before, gotten the answer that they don't work and keeps asking waiting for a different response. Let him waste his money and find out for himself.

Grantmac

I happened on your reply only now. Please note

1. You must be confusing me with somebody else, because I never asked this question in this Forum. Even if I did, it does not warrant your use of the word fool.

2.May I remind you that even more of a fool is he who calls fools those he disagrees with.

Please understand, I am not defending here the minifoils, for I have so far no solid evidence on which to base my opinions .
On the other hand, I am not willing to believe that these minifoils are not working or that they are inferior to full fledge foils, without prior reading reviews on the Web or hearing from some who have actually used them and found them bad, which is hardly the case so far..

The Web is practically silent and here, as well as in other forums, only a couple of people have commented (negatively) , without saying if it was from personal experience or hearsay, which is most likely the case. Hearsay , unless confirmed by many, is hardly reliable.

True, in strictly statistical terms, two negative opinions out of two is 100%, but we can hardly infer any probability from a sample of this size.

I am not denying that regular foils have their own merits,( at least for those who enjoy racing 1 m. above the water..). However their popularity is also driven by the overwhelming power of the manufacturers' advertising and the herd instinct of the humans, who seem to follow fashions or trends simply because others do the same..

it is equally in the human nature ( and healthy!) that any new idea or product at first encounter resistance and detractors, until few are willing to take the risk and blaze the trail and find them good. . Then the " new" product becomes the new norm.
Time will tell if these minifoils are any good, but it may be an uphill struggle, in the face of full fledge ( and expensive! ) foils that have now come to dominate the market and appear, in the minds of many, as the only viable standard of foiling.

Francone

PS: Please have a look at iWindsurf Community :: View topic - alternate foil ??
I had posted here, but I haven't looked at recent replies. They don't seem negative at all. Actually they are mostly positive, the only limit being that the minifoil won't lift you off the water like a full foil, just a few cm to the surface, enough to help the board planing. in light winds.

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Francone said..

Grantmac said..
A fool and his money are soon parted.

He's asked this question before, gotten the answer that they don't work and keeps asking waiting for a different response. Let him waste his money and find out for himself.

Grantmac

I happened on your reply only now. Please note

1. You must be confusing me with somebody else, because I never asked this question in this Forum. Even if I did, it does not warrant your use of the word fool.

2.May I remind you that even more of a fool is he who calls fools those he disagrees with.

Please understand, I am not defending here the minifoils, for I have so far no solid evidence on which to base my opinions .
On the other hand, I am not willing to believe that these minifoils are not working or that they are inferior to full fledge foils, without prior reading reviews on the Web or hearing from some who have actually used them and found them bad, which is hardly the case so far..

The Web is practically silent and here, as well as in other forums, only a couple of people have commented (negatively) , without saying if it was from personal experience or hearsay, which is most likely the case. Hearsay , unless confirmed by many, is hardly reliable.

True, in strictly statistical terms, two negative opinions out of two is 100%, but we can hardly infer any probability from a sample of this size.

I am not denying that regular foils have their own merits,( at least for those who enjoy racing 1 m. above the water..). However their popularity is also driven by the overwhelming power of the manufacturers' advertising and the herd instinct of the humans, who seem to follow fashions or trends simply because others do the same..

it is equally in the human nature ( and healthy!) that any new idea or product at first encounter resistance and detractors, until few are willing to take the risk and blaze the trail and find them good. . Then the " new" product becomes the new norm.
Time will tell if these minifoils are any good, but it may be an uphill struggle, in the face of full fledge ( and expensive! ) foils that have now come to dominate the market and appear, in the minds of many, as the only viable standard of foiling.

Francone

PS: Please have a look at iWindsurf Community :: View topic - alternate foil ??
I had posted here, but I haven't looked at recent replies. They don't seem negative at all. Actually they are mostly positive, the only limit being that the minifoil won't lift you off the water like a full foil, just a few cm to the surface, enough to help the board planing. in light winds.

Francone, about half of us who answered you here had answered your iwindsurf post, too. (I'd also say the level of expertise is much higher here, in general) We'll tell you in both spots that you are better off getting a proper decent used foil. The minifoil isn't going to be lifting you off the water - it's too small and in the wrong place. Read my comment above. We've dealt with the "inventor" here and elsewhere for years and he's never been able to substantiate his claims or have some qualified person test and evaluate it.

Some things are inherently expensive because of the materials and manufacturing techniques they require. However, the most expensive gear is gear that doesn't do what it claims but just empties your wallet.

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Francone said..

I am not denying that regular foils have their own merits,( at least for those who enjoy racing 1 m. above the water..). However their popularity is also driven by the overwhelming power of the manufacturers' advertising and the herd instinct of the humans, who seem to follow fashions or trends simply because others do the same..

it is equally in the human nature ( and healthy!) that any new idea or product at first encounter resistance and detractors, until few are willing to take the risk and blaze the trail and find them good. . Then the " new" product becomes the new norm.
Time will tell if these minifoils are any good, but it may be an uphill struggle, in the face of full fledge ( and expensive! ) foils that have now come to dominate the market and appear, in the minds of many, as the only viable standard of foiling.

Francone

Go to the bottom of the main page of Starboard foils and you will see a little picture of Tiesdaholding amasts with winglets:starboardfoils.com The caption says he did it in 2010. If they did not produce it, most likely it did not work. It is in the human nature to copy what works and try to make money out of it :)



Regarding advertising, I can say that I thought foiling would mean one board, one sail, and foil and that would be it (how naive, right). Having said that, most people who added foiling to the mix got their sailing time increased (in my case, exponentially), except for people who live in windy places. But even for people living in windy places, it gave them a new thing to try.

I have tried it in my pre foil stage, 5, 6 years ago. I put it on my 120l board. I could not determine if I was gliding before, but if I felt the board looser in the chop, it lost speed, then it broke, the joints of the wings with the fin were cracked. I feel represented in your search with a low budget! That always led me to mistakes and in the end the account always gave me a negative balance. I ended up spending much more !! The foil is not for the skeptic! foil is a wonderful new world !! Cheers

After riding two different hydrofoil styles and just seeing the mini foil stuff I'd save my money and buy literally anything else with it. Even a bigger fin.

And practice pumping skills in light wind.

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Has anybody tried it? Thanks. Francone.

I think Francone was asking somebody who tried a minifoil.
It looks like I am the only one here who did.
New video of my son Alexey trying my new minifoil:
Thanks for commenting. Stepan.

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Paducah said..

Francone said..

Grantmac said..
A fool and his money are soon parted.

He's asked this question before, gotten the answer that they don't work and keeps asking waiting for a different response. Let him waste his money and find out for himself.

Grantmac

I happened on your reply only now. Please note

1. You must be confusing me with somebody else, because I never asked this question in this Forum. Even if I did, it does not warrant your use of the word fool.

2.May I remind you that even more of a fool is he who calls fools those he disagrees with.

Please understand, I am not defending here the minifoils, for I have so far no solid evidence on which to base my opinions .
On the other hand, I am not willing to believe that these minifoils are not working or that they are inferior to full fledge foils, without prior reading reviews on the Web or hearing from some who have actually used them and found them bad, which is hardly the case so far..

The Web is practically silent and here, as well as in other forums, only a couple of people have commented (negatively) , without saying if it was from personal experience or hearsay, which is most likely the case. Hearsay , unless confirmed by many, is hardly reliable.

True, in strictly statistical terms, two negative opinions out of two is 100%, but we can hardly infer any probability from a sample of this size.

I am not denying that regular foils have their own merits,( at least for those who enjoy racing 1 m. above the water..). However their popularity is also driven by the overwhelming power of the manufacturers' advertising and the herd instinct of the humans, who seem to follow fashions or trends simply because others do the same..

it is equally in the human nature ( and healthy!) that any new idea or product at first encounter resistance and detractors, until few are willing to take the risk and blaze the trail and find them good. . Then the " new" product becomes the new norm.
Time will tell if these minifoils are any good, but it may be an uphill struggle, in the face of full fledge ( and expensive! ) foils that have now come to dominate the market and appear, in the minds of many, as the only viable standard of foiling.

Francone

PS: Please have a look at iWindsurf Community :: View topic - alternate foil ??
I had posted here, but I haven't looked at recent replies. They don't seem negative at all. Actually they are mostly positive, the only limit being that the minifoil won't lift you off the water like a full foil, just a few cm to the surface, enough to help the board planing. in light winds.

Francone, about half of us who answered you here had answered your iwindsurf post, too. (I'd also say the level of expertise is much higher here, in general) We'll tell you in both spots that you are better off getting a proper decent used foil. The minifoil isn't going to be lifting you off the water - it's too small and in the wrong place. Read my comment above. We've dealt with the "inventor" here and elsewhere for years and he's never been able to substantiate his claims or have some qualified person test and evaluate it.

Some things are inherently expensive because of the materials and manufacturing techniques they require. However, the most expensive gear is gear that doesn't do what it claims but just empties your wallet.

Paducah

1. I have no way to tell that half of those who answered on the iWindsurfing forum are the same who answered on Seabreeze. If I knew, I wouldn't probably have wasted my time, but there are always new people, sometimes with different ideas, looking at posts, therefore I think it is not a foolish enterprise to keep asking on different Forums.

2. You keep saying that there is a general consensus that these minifoils are ineffective, too small and in the wrong place to lift the board off the water. Some people, whether they speak from personal experience or from theory, may have said that, but you cannot call it a general consensus, because, if you look at the iWindsurf forum , a few other people have expressed the opposite view, namely that minifoils do help raise the board off the water, albeit barely, but enough to start planing in light winds, which is all I want. Of course there are a few more variables in the equation, like the weight of the sailor, the type or volume of the board, the expertise level, etc. So it is not carved in stone that they work for everybody

It also depends to a great extent on our expectations.If all somebody wants is speed and adrenaline and being able to fly a regular foil 1 m. above the water, learn a new technique ( and pay for it) it is his/her choice. For these people, a minifoil will be outright useless and he won't probably recommend it..

On the other hand, for those with more modest expectations, who like to get more easily on the plane in light winds, rather than schlogging around, a minifoil will be an interesting proposition. I say this on the assumption that those who tried them and found that they give an effective lift towards planing, are not lying. Why should they? Even more of an interesting proposition because they sell for $ 395, which is a far cry from the price of a regular foil, even a used one. In addition they come with a 60 days return policy .

I thank you for the exchange

Francone

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FRPGear said..

Has anybody tried it? Thanks. Francone.

I think Francone was asking somebody who tried a minifoil.
It looks like I am the only one here who did.
New video of my son Alexey trying my new minifoil:
Thanks for commenting. Stepan.

Yes, but the minifoil on this video seems to be the top of the range FRP foil , carbon made and very similar to the regular foils on the market. Also much more expensive than the reguak foils on the market. . The question is about the regular, cheaper V-shaped minifoils shown in the FRP site. Would they provide enough lift to plane in light winds? Some say yes, some say no..

Francone

Learning to pump on a fin will give you significantly more planing time and costs nothing.

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The question is about the regular, cheaper V-shaped minifoils shown in the FRP site. Would they provide enough lift to plane in light winds? Some say yes, some say no..

Absolutely. Who says "no..?"
For 80cm wide 160L board and 90kg it may be better to scale a little up. This is my favorite 4 years old minifoil that I modified several times to meet my conservative windsurfing preferences: smooth and easy to handle with small sail at light wind so I look good from the beach while 80kg below median skill level. Granted, I am the fastest in light wind with smaller sail because nobody can get on plane so all the fast sailors are watching me while waiting for wind. Yes, they go faster when and if wind gets over 10 knots. To be honest, most of them are faster even when I am on a regular fin. I can fly this minifoil above water if I want to, and it is stable enough. Just need to practice in order to make long flights.

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FRPGear said..

The question is about the regular, cheaper V-shaped minifoils shown in the FRP site. Would they provide enough lift to plane in light winds? Some say yes, some say no..

Absolutely. Who says "no..?"
For 80cm wide 160L board and 90kg it may be better to scale a little up. This is my favorite 4 years old minifoil that I modified several times to meet my conservative windsurfing preferences: smooth and easy to handle with small sail at light wind so I look good from the beach while 80kg below median skill level. Granted, I am the fastest in light wind with smaller sail because nobody can get on plane so all the fast sailors are watching me while waiting for wind. Yes, they go faster when and if wind gets over 10 knots. To be honest, most of them are faster even when I am on a regular fin. I can fly this minifoil above water if I want to, and it is stable enough. Just need to practice in order to make long flights.

So the range of that mini foil is 6-9 knots? If so, you need the steadiest light wind to make it worthwhile.

I do not know how it is practically possible to accurately report wind speed. We can only measure wind speed on the beach with accuracy +/- 50%. It works ok with me because I could use the same meter or even without a meter I can tell if wind is enough and for what configuration because I have known my spot for 20+ years. The only accurate data to report is the time on water. With regular fin I had good time ones a week and I need to take some rest time because it takes more effort with strong wind and larger sail. With a small minifoil lifting fin like on my picture I go windsurfing 3 times per week and I stay on water 3 times longer because it is more comfortable with smaller sail in lighter wind. It results in about 10x more windsurfing time available to me per year. Indeed, it is too much of windsurfing and I do not do it so much. But it practically means that I do not need to check weather forecast anymore to plan ahead because I can spontaneously go to windsurf any time I want because there is always some wind there. If it is not enough wind to plane against the waves, I get planning with the waves. Because I do not know how to pump I need stronger wind to get on a regular foil than to plane on a minifoil. My son gets on a foil at very light wind thanks to his pumping method that he cannot explain. I get on planning before him when he is on a regular fin and I am on my minifoil despite he can pump. When wind is blowing sand on the beach, I can lift my board off water while on a minifoil. The common misunderstanding is that a wing on the fin lifts the back of the board so the nose goes down. If that so critical for you, how to explain that a below average one like myself can lift 169 L SeaTrend above water and keep minifoiling above water while experts say: "The minifoil isn't going to be lifting you off the water - it's too small and in the wrong place?" I think minifoiling hides yet unknown opportunities to be discovered so it will make winsdurfing in general more accessible for beginners and more popular. I have just started minifoiling not a long time ago and I can do so much on water that I would not be doing on a fin or a foil. It is incorrect to compare a minifoil with a foil. More correct comparison is with the fin. When I use $300 Z-fin I do not feel much difference from $10 used fin, because of my skill level. But I feel a significant difference when I use a minifoil fin.

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Holy crap Batman's sail !!!

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Let's recap:
One (1) person says they offer very significant performance improvements, he sails with many people who don't use them despite him sailing rings around them in light conditions and them being able to try them for free at the beach.
He also happens to sell the two pieces of G10 epoxied together for $400.

Vs.
Literally the entire windsurfing industry and everyone who posts on forums.

Easy math. But fools and money.

Ability to invent and talent to sale could be conflicting skill sets that do not coexist in one package.
This old video is more relevant:

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FRPGear said..
Ability to invent and talent to sale could be conflicting skill sets that do not coexist in one package.
This old video is more relevant:

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antonmik said..

FRPGear said..
Ability to invent and talent to sale could be conflicting skill sets that do not coexist in one package.
This old video is more relevant:

Antonmik

A few words regarding your conclusion that the seller has made false claims about the minifoil , because , while raising the tail , it would make the nose of the board plunge in the water, thereby stopping the board in its tracks...

I'm looking into this minifoil myself. It is certainly true that salesmanship and honesty do not always go hand in hand, but there are perhaps other things to consider before concluding that we have been lied to....

First, the fact that the minifoil raises the tail of the board is already a good sign that it does provide lift.
If the nose plunges, is it really a flaw in the design or rather a question of technique? Perhaps the nose dive can be be corrected by shifting the body towards the tail to counterbalance it. Did you try this? This is necessary even on regular foils, where you can adjust the lift and have the board sit higher or lower on the water ( hence correct the nose dip) by shifting the weight..

I'd also consider other variables in the equation: the type of board, the sailor's skill, the weight and the wind conditions. Shifting the rig backward or forward along the mastfoot rail can also correct the nose dive...

Secondly, and more importantly, FRP has a 30 days full refund return warranty. This speaks to the seller' s good will. Why should one complain that the minifoil is not working and that he has been lied to when he could have returned it for a full refund?

Francone

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Francone said..

antonmik said..

FRPGear said..
Ability to invent and talent to sale could be conflicting skill sets that do not coexist in one package.
This old video is more relevant:

Antonmik

A few words regarding your conclusion that the seller has made false claims about the minifoil , because , while raising the tail , it would make the nose of the board plunge in the water, thereby stopping the board in its tracks...

I'm looking into this minifoil myself. It is certainly true that salesmanship and honesty do not always go hand in hand, but there are perhaps other things to consider before concluding that we have been lied to....

First, the fact that the minifoil raises the tail of the board is already a good sign that it does provide lift.
If the nose plunges, is it really a flaw in the design or rather a question of technique? Perhaps the nose dive can be be corrected by shifting the body towards the tail to counterbalance it. Did you try this? This is necessary even on regular foils, where you can adjust the lift and have the board sit higher or lower on the water ( hence correct the nose dip) by shifting the weight..

I'd also consider other variables in the equation: the type of board, the sailor's skill, the weight and the wind conditions. Shifting the rig backward or forward along the mastfoot rail can also correct the nose dive...

Secondly, and more importantly, FRP has a 30 days full refund return warranty. This speaks to the seller' s good will. Why should one complain that the minifoil is not working and that he has been lied to when he could have returned it for a full refund?

Francone

Fracone, do you know of anyone who returned a minifoil to FRP within the first 30 days and got a full refund?

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FRPGear said..
... I can fly this minifoil above water if I want to, and it is stable enough. Just need to practice in order to make long flights.

Having foiled a 60cm mast in flat water, I'm going to say that any time above the water was a mere chop hop. You can practice all you want, you aren't going to be flying a wing that's a) under your back foot and b) basically has a 30cm mast. We're all looking forward to a video of you flying this thing for 30 seconds. Show me a verifiable video of it flying 2 min and I'll buy you dinner.

Now that we've all wasted too many electrons on this: Francone, go ahead and buy it despite all of our advice. Enjoy it, have fun with it. And, best of luck on the 30 day guarantee.

Topic started in June and finally came around in October. Troll or fool? Which one? I hope you do better in foiling.

Fun fact: I lost a tail off my foil. Even with a balanced front foil position and 85cm mast it was unflyable. So I'll add dessert to Paducah's dinner offer.

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Grantmac said..
Fun fact: I lost a tail off my foil. Even with a balanced front foil position and 85cm mast it was unflyable. So I'll add dessert to Paducah's dinner offer.

. The WS community is small. FRP, Francone / ittiandro since 2018 asking the same questions. In the meantime some are trying to hit 40 knots with proven foils. What's next?? Anyone that post something and responds back 4 months later to his question isn't interested in progress. Just my opinion.