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Message from Chris Fallows

Created by bakesy bakesy  > 9 months ago, 16 Jul 2012
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Zed
Zed

Zed

WA

1274 posts

17 Jul 2012 6:32pm
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elcoco said...

Chris is making good points, instead of killing them looking for ways to reduce risk...They are important in the ecosystem...we should find out why this is happening and then act appropriately.


Yeah but he's been a bit idealistic. Shark barriers are great if the attacks are all in one place, in WA they are all over the place and also all the attacks have occurred when the spotting planes/helicopters haven't been operating.
Kiting
Kiting

77 posts

17 Jul 2012 7:12pm
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Sham1984 said...

doggie said...

katana said...

ive been in touch with an electronics specialist hopefully a lighterweight model is possible !


An ankle type of thing would be great so its in the water all the time unless paddling.



There's an ankle one on the market now. In the ankle strap part of the leash.

https://www.esdshawaii.com/

Now they just need to get them to actually work




That is all well and good, however the only scientific study conducted on the Shark Shield technology I have seen, found there to be a greater correlation for sharks to attack those with the Shark Shields than without..

I agree old shark shields to bulky and zap you. New ankle ones look good although my ankles are out of the water when paddling which is majority of the time. An option I would like to see is a smaller unit that fits into bottom of surfboard into an oversized fin plug type thing that could be interchangable between boards.

Regardless, they still need to develop the technology to the extent that it works on the relevant species of sharks (they all rely on different senses to a different extent). This has yet to be achieved and proven by a reputable independent party.
arkgee
arkgee

NSW

639 posts

17 Jul 2012 9:47pm
we are all surfers...when we enter the water we become part of the food chain...trouble is we are not on the top
katana
katana

WA

644 posts

17 Jul 2012 8:25pm
the main object was to develop a unit built in to the board light enough that it wont hinder the performance of the board .i agree it must work and be tested on a certain species.
WATER MAN
WATER MAN

WA

139 posts

17 Jul 2012 9:37pm

I have to agree to learn about the shark is the best way to fight the problem. BUT what we all have been told by the experts is not helping.
Stay out of the water between sunrise and sunset. I am not sure but I don't think any were between those times.
Don't get in the water on an overcast day. I believe in this one but I don't think last Saturday was that cloudy nor the day the bloke was taken in Bunbury.
Don't get in the water during migration times. I think we are averaging 1 attack every 2 months.
It just sounds like we are all fair game anytime, any day any condition.
There has been 1 place I know of that has had little reports of sharks close to shore. As I am superstitious I will not mention the area.
SP
SP

SP

10982 posts

19 Jul 2012 11:49am
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Thought I'd repost this, from Coastalwatch.


Shark attacks are every bit as traumatic as road accidents, but we're nowhere near as accustomed to them. Young people in particular are fatalistic about road trauma, which is why they drive fast and send text messages and do dozens of other foolish things behind the wheel. But no-one is blas? about the prospect of being ripped to pieces by a wild animal. It's highly emotive territory, and even cold hard statistics do little to cut through the dread.

The Australian shark attack file is a database covering the 700-odd shark attacks in Australian waters since 1791. It's maintained by Taronga Zoo in the interests of providing objective data for research. The ASAF's John West, who curates all that information, estimates that there are 100,000,000 beach visits each year in Australia, along 35,000 kms of coast.

Yet shark attack fatalities tick along at a steady rate of around one per year, despite our population and visitor numbers increasing all the time. According to the ASAF, 28% of attacks in Australian waters, a little over one in four, are fatal. And that ratio of deaths to attacks is falling, as it is all around the world, most likely due to better medical care. Considering the sheer number of dangling legs along our coast at any given time, it is reasonable to call the fatal attacks freak occurrences.

Breaking the numbers down a little further, in the last twenty years, there have been twenty-five fatalities, which averages out to around 1.25 per year. In the last fifty years, there have been forty-six fatalities, averaging less than one (0.92) per year. Therefore, there is substance to the idea that attacks are on the rise - it's just that it's a statistically tiny increase. The same thing can be demonstrated when looking at non-fatal attacks: from an average of 6.5 incidents per year in 1990-2000, these are now occurring at a rate of 15 incidents per year over the past decade. But the explosion in participation in watersports over this period dwarfs the increase in attacks.

Surfers are by far the most heavily represented group among victims: they are attacked at nearly three times the rate for swimmers, and five times the rate for divers. According to research work done by John West, there has been "a 310% increase in attacks on surfers since 1999. There have also been substantial increases in the attacks on swimmers, SCUBA divers and sailboarders."

Perversely, we tend to look for anomalies which will make the statistics feel unsafe. We search for patterns to give gravity to terms like "shark infested" and "man-eater". If attacks happen close together, whether in time or physical location, there's talk of how far one shark can move in a day, as though an individual animal has gone rogue and taken victims at multiple beaches like a serial killer.

Fear has the upper hand over mathematics again: this time due to a remarkable cluster of attacks in W.A. There's been six attacks in the last 12 months, five of them fatal, in the 300km stretch between Lancelin and Busselton. Of those, five were within 200km and nine months of each other. Five were outside the "cricket season" months when attacks are usually concentrated, and in fact the last couple have been deep within winter. What does it all mean?

Kent Stannard of the research funding body Whitetag makes the point that sequences of attacks are not unprecedented. "S.A. had a similar run of fatalities back in the early 2000s," he says. "Just because shark numbers appear to be high in one area doesn't mean they are high elsewhere. The Neptune Islands have a shark index which goes in peaks and troughs - some years high shark activity, some years low. Dangerous Reef in the Spencer Gulf was consistently the site of most white shark activity back in the 70s and the 80s.We went out with the Fox group late last year dropped off acoustic receivers and returned in April this year to find only one tagged shark had been in the area over that period."

Would a mathematician tell you these peaks and troughs are within the bounds of normal statistical variation? Or does the WA cluster give credibility to concerns that great whites are becoming more numerous in southern WA, or that something about their diet or habitat is changing, to bring them inshore? Seal and whale numbers along our coast are known to have increased over the last decade, but conversely, the impact of our fisheries is greater by the year.

On a recent shark tagging trip with Barry Bruce, the CSIRO's chief researcher of great whites, I remember raising these questions and being told that no-one knows how many great whites are out there. There is simply no way of counting a solitary wild animal in an unwatchable environment. So we protect them on the precautionary principle that if it's likely we are pushing an animal towards extinction through the combined effect of our actions, we should assume the need for protection. As he told me this, Barry Bruce and I were sitting on a rented fishing trawler, filling the water with pungent burley in a known nursery area. We'd been at it for six hours, and hadn't seen a fin.

But in the wake of Ben Linden's tragic death last weekend, there's talk of lifting the ban on commercial and recreational great white fishing, and specific orders have been given by the state fisheries minister to exterminate all four to five metre sharks in the area. It is unclear from the relevant press release exactly what constitutes "the area", and whether officers should measure sharks - to establish guilt by body length - before shooting them. The scientific consensus is that such killings are politically effective but practically useless. Even if every large shark off Perth is caught, killed and dissected until human remains are found, the exercise has all the scientific rigour of a witch hunt. There is no research basis for the idea that sharks involved in one attack will go on to attack other humans. On the contrary, it is believed that in the majority of cases sharks immediately leave the area and don't return.

According to Kent Stannard, "Australian salmon are in abundance inshore along the southern coasts at this time of year and migratory species - including white sharks - are working their way up the east and west coasts of Australia. White sharks when migrating are in transit mode, and behave differently than at seal colonies. They tend to be opportunistic feeders. This, mixed with more surfers and ocean users, suggests chances of interaction are heightened."

Tagging is beginning to provide the data that might ease our minds. Movement patterns, residency times, site fidelity and behaviour can now be measured and plotted. But it's expensive, time consuming work, and it's a lot less sexy than a mass killing. It matters, because the more tags are out there, the more accurate the data becomes. As long as good quality information is finding its way to the broader ocean user community, then it can be said tagging is potentially saving lives. Stannard gives the example of a 5m tagged white shark triggering the receivers off Perth beaches recently: the signal gave surf lifesavers time to activate their shark response plan. "This shark was tagged down near Albany," he says, "which also confirmed these animals are a migratory species moving up and down the WA coast at certain times of the year."

"CSIRO research has identified an eastern seaboard population of white sharks all stemming from and returning to the one region in eastern Bass Strait," he continues. "These sharks all share the same genetic code, and they track between Wilson's Prom and the Port Stephens region of NSW. All are considered juveniles - 1.2 - 2.8m, and 1-5 yrs of age. When they return to eastern Bass Strait, they don't go beyond Wilson's Prom. It's possible that's genetically hard-wired in them."

We're in the early stages of what might be achieved by tagging and genetic coding. The risk of shark attack could be dramatically lowered through scientific intervention. But in the meantime, an average of 87 people are drowning at Australian beaches every year. Just plain old drowning. These deaths are not as gruesome, but in many cases they're far more preventable. For the cost of a national shark cull, for the environmental damage it would do, how many sharks could we tag? How many kids could we teach to swim? How many more beaches could we patrol? This is the delicate dance of numbers, so easily skewed by fear.







Read more: http://www.coastalwatch.com/news/article.aspx?articleId=10652#ixzz211yTWUZf

jbshack
jbshack

WA

6913 posts

19 Jul 2012 11:58am
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SP said...

But in the meantime, an average of 87 people are drowning at Australian beaches every year. Just plain old drowning. These deaths are not as gruesome, but in many cases they're far more preventable. For the cost of a national shark cull, for the environmental damage it would do, how many sharks could we tag? How many kids could we teach to swim? How many more beaches could we patrol? This is the delicate dance of numbers, so easily skewed by fear.



A good post. it is a little old and hasn't taken into account he last year or two but still a very valid point.
smicko
smicko

WA

2503 posts

19 Jul 2012 12:04pm
You're a twit JBS, if you're going to make a comment on an article perhaps you could try reading it first.
That article specifically mentions the attack over the weekend and you're saying it doesn't take into account the last year or two.
**** me the crux of the article was the spate of attacks in West Oz over the last 12 months.
SP
SP

SP

10982 posts

19 Jul 2012 12:11pm
Not sure what you mean JB? please explain?

The article was written in the last few days and published today.

The stats are up to date and it talks about the WA and even mentions the latest attack..

JB, is the 4 attack thing again, you got wrong the other day too..


The point of the article is to educate. read it. It is a statistical look at the attacks and discusses qualatative factors as well.. FFS
soleman
soleman

WA

280 posts

19 Jul 2012 1:04pm
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jbshack said...

SP said...

But in the meantime, an average of 87 people are drowning at Australian beaches every year. Just plain old drowning. These deaths are not as gruesome, but in many cases they're far more preventable. For the cost of a national shark cull, for the environmental damage it would do, how many sharks could we tag? How many kids could we teach to swim? How many more beaches could we patrol? This is the delicate dance of numbers, so easily skewed by fear.



A good post. it is a little old and hasn't taken into account he last year or two but still a very valid point.


you cant be serious

But in the wake of Ben Linden's tragic death last weekend, there's talk of lifting the ban on commercial and recreational great white fishing, and specific orders have been given by the state fisheries minister to exterminate all four to five metre sharks in the area. It is unclear from the relevant press release exactly what constitutes “the area”, and whether officers should measure sharks - to establish guilt by body length - before shooting them. The scientific consensus is that such killings are politically effective but practically useless. Even if every large shark off Perth is caught, killed and dissected until human remains are found, the exercise has all the scientific rigour of a witch hunt. There is no research basis for the idea that sharks involved in one attack will go on to attack other humans. On the contrary, it is believed that in the majority of cases sharks immediately leave the area and don't return.


How much more up to date can you possibly get at the moment???
bakesy
bakesy

WA

682 posts

19 Jul 2012 2:00pm
good post SP, I have alerted our Fisheries Minister to our discussions on this site and forwarded him a number of emails from Chris and the response was swift from his Department, I invited him to post on this forum as it as valid as any other form of media but doubt he'll become a breezer
LateStarter
LateStarter

WA

589 posts

19 Jul 2012 2:05pm
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bakesy said...

I invited him to post on this forum as it as valid as any other form of media but doubt he'll become a breezer


Someone lend him a SUP board!

jbshack
jbshack

WA

6913 posts

19 Jul 2012 2:58pm
Sorry that will teach me to speed read My bad. There was a very similar report done and printed that did the rounds about a year ago that was from Taronga zoo were they touched on a similar tone.

My point was simply to high light the stat of drownings to shark attacks thats all. That was shy i isolated that part of the report.

Anyway the anser has been found its the sheep.

www.heraldsun.com.au/nocookies?a=A.flavipes
SP
SP

SP

10982 posts

19 Jul 2012 3:03pm


What report? Can you post it up I'd like to read it. As far as I no and explained in the article they keep the numbers and there statistics are available for all, it was a new story mentions the most recent attack, speed read, more like didn't read at all just felt the need to comment..

As for your drowning thing, how many where surfers or had a craft with them?.. Go on find out..


Good stuff Bakesy, it is an issue that needs to be talked about but needs intelligent conversation between research, fisho's and lots of other water users. He'd be brave coming on here though
jbshack
jbshack

WA

6913 posts

19 Jul 2012 3:17pm
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SP said...



What report? Can you post it up I'd like to read it. As far as I no and explained in the article they keep the numbers and there statistics are available for all, it was a new story mentions the most recent attack, speed read, more like didn't read at all just felt the need to comment..




I just read the full report. Sorry mate as i said i didn't read it fully firstly. After getting through the first part it was very similar to something i have read before. The other one i wont try and find but it went on to talk about attacks in Sydney Harbour and Bull shark populations. Even ended with similar stats regarding drowning and swimming education. Written by the supported by the same people and supported through Taronga work.

This one is a very good read. Says basically the same as ever other expert in the field though. Don't cull.

No didn't feel the need to just comment, but then again that is what we do here?

I actually wanted to point out once again hear we have a invested crew saying that culling is not the answer. How many people with any knowledge will it take before all the nah sayers will start to listen.
jbshack
jbshack

WA

6913 posts

19 Jul 2012 3:20pm
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bakesy said...

good post SP, I have alerted our Fisheries Minister to our discussions on this site and forwarded him a number of emails from Chris and the response was swift from his Department, I invited him to post on this forum as it as valid as any other form of media but doubt he'll become a breezer


Sadly i guess that the Fisheries minister's view will be what best suits the local liberal vote. The popular choice does not always make it right.
SP
SP

SP

10982 posts

19 Jul 2012 3:29pm
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jbshack said...

SP said...



What report? Can you post it up I'd like to read it. As far as I no and explained in the article they keep the numbers and there statistics are available for all, it was a new story mentions the most recent attack, speed read, more like didn't read at all just felt the need to comment..




I just read the full report. Sorry mate as i said i didn't read it fully firstly. After getting through the first part it was very similar to something i have read before. The other one i wont try and find but it went on to talk about attacks in Sydney Harbour and Bull shark populations. Even ended with similar stats regarding drowning and swimming education. Written by the supported by the same people and supported through Taronga work.

This one is a very good read. Says basically the same as ever other expert in the field though. Don't cull.

No didn't feel the need to just comment, but then again that is what we do here?

I actually wanted to point out once again hear we have a invested crew saying that culling is not the answer. How many people with any knowledge will it take before all the nah sayers will start to listen.




The drowning thing is bulllllllshiiiiiit... 2 or 3 surfers or users of surf craft drown every year out of the 100ish drownings on our beaches... So the stat is way different if you compare drowning of surfers and surfer attacked by sharks.

How can you compare a fisherman who gets washed of the rocks and drowns in the same category as someone who enters the water willingly.

Bee sting...

Most people who die from bee stings suffer Anaphalactic shock, it is an allergy that occurs in a % of the population so the actual stat is way smaller if you take out all the others that aren't allergic to bees. Sharks aren't an allergy..





soleman
soleman

WA

280 posts

19 Jul 2012 3:33pm
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jbshack said...

Sorry that will teach me to speed read My bad. There was a very similar report done and printed that did the rounds about a year ago that was from Taronga zoo were they touched on a similar tone.

My point was simply to high light the stat of drownings to shark attacks thats all. That was shy i isolated that part of the report.

Anyway the anser has been found its the sheep.

www.heraldsun.com.au/nocookies?a=A.flavipes


drownings compared to shark attacks, thats like comparing apples and oranges. unless the shark holds you underwater untill you drown then bites you in half. Hey presto i just found the answer thanks JBS you are amazing. Now sheep are to blame?? you and the humanitarium society are clutching at straws. live stock exports have been happening for more than 1-2 years mate. FFS
jbshack
jbshack

WA

6913 posts

19 Jul 2012 3:53pm
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soleman said...

jbshack said...

Sorry that will teach me to speed read My bad. There was a very similar report done and printed that did the rounds about a year ago that was from Taronga zoo were they touched on a similar tone.

My point was simply to high light the stat of drownings to shark attacks thats all. That was shy i isolated that part of the report.

Anyway the anser has been found its the sheep.

www.heraldsun.com.au/nocookies?a=A.flavipes


drownings compared to shark attacks, thats like comparing apples and oranges. unless the shark holds you underwater untill you drown then bites you in half. Hey presto i just found the answer thanks JBS you are amazing. Now sheep are to blame?? you and the humanitarium society are clutching at straws. live stock exports have been happening for more than 1-2 years mate. FFS


I never said i agreed with the human Society. Just to clarify for those with your pitchforks i didn't read the sheep article. just posted it for a laugh from the tittle
smicko
smicko

WA

2503 posts

19 Jul 2012 4:01pm
Rodney you should employ the use of a spell checker, at least then your nonsensical arguments may carry a little more weight.
doggie
doggie

WA

15849 posts

19 Jul 2012 4:09pm
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smicko said...

Rodney you should employ the use of a spell checker, at least then your nonsensical arguments may carry a little more weight.


I thought his name was JB not Rodney
Woodo
Woodo

WA

792 posts

19 Jul 2012 4:13pm
bakesy
bakesy

WA

682 posts

19 Jul 2012 4:18pm
thanks for saying that Mick (spell check reference) it annoys me too but I'm on holidays from correcting spelling and grammar. It's more annoying than naming surf spots, posting photos with identifiable landmarks (oops) or stating the height of a wave.
bakesy
bakesy

WA

682 posts

19 Jul 2012 4:21pm
Here's one for you Mick.
Dear Mr Baker,

Thank you for your email to the Minister for Fisheries regarding shark attacks. The Minister read has asked that respond to you on his behalf.

The research that you have conducted is very interesting. As you would be aware, the Department of Fisheries is undertaking a range shark attack related research projects. I have forwarded your email to the Department's Shark Response Unit to take advantage of the information and contacts you have provided.

Thank you for your interest in this matter.


David Griffiths
Principal Policy Adviser - Fisheries
Hon Norman Moore MLC
Minister for Mines and Petroleum; Fisheries; Electoral Affairs;
Leader of the Government in the Legislative Council
smicko
smicko

WA

2503 posts

19 Jul 2012 4:39pm
Seriously Damo?
That was the reply you received?

That's shocking.
doggie
doggie

WA

15849 posts

19 Jul 2012 4:45pm
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smicko said...

Seriously Damo?
That was the reply you received?

That's shocking.


Read between the lines, it really said -



jbshack
jbshack

WA

6913 posts

19 Jul 2012 5:08pm
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smicko said...

Rodney you should employ the use of a spell checker, at least then your nonsensical arguments may carry a little more weight.


Are you serous. You're that bad a sport that because i disagree with you on something you'll pull that card.[}:)]

Maybe a little help as i checked back and can't see any glaring spelling issues(not saying there isn't any)

Oh and if there is you can blame the spell checker
bakesy
bakesy

WA

682 posts

19 Jul 2012 5:12pm
yes Mick that was it, however, I have sent a reply that will hopefully see Mr Moore make a statement to the SB community. He has in my opinion handled this situation pretty well and the Department have responded to the various bits of information I sent from several leading experts in the field of GWS research, so I'm pretty happy at this stage. I'm just hoping for a Department funded response plan, which will see sightings and encounter information sent to those of us that use the oceanic environment in a prompt manner. The plan is for us to be able to register with Fisheries and receive a SMS the moment a sighting is reported to them. It will require advertising and funds. I pointed out that as the wealthiest state in the land we should be able to do this, I also asked for aerial patrols to be increased during the surf season (which they think is summer). In my game we are used to interacting with both state and federal departments and I understand the way they go about things. The main thing to remember is that things are done slowly ( thoroughly) and with plenty of consultation and discussion (red tape).
jbshack
jbshack

WA

6913 posts

19 Jul 2012 5:18pm
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bakesy said...

yes Mick that was it, however, I have sent a reply that will hopefully see Mr Moore make a statement to the SB community. He has in my opinion handled this situation pretty well and the Department have responded to the various bits of information I sent from several leading experts in the field of GWS research, so I'm pretty happy at this stage. I'm just hoping for a Department funded response plan, which will see sightings and encounter information sent to those of us that use the oceanic environment in a prompt manner. The plan is for us to be able to register with Fisheries and receive a SMS the moment a sighting is reported to them. It will require advertising and funds. I pointed out that as the wealthiest state in the land we should be able to do this, I also asked for aerial patrols to be increased during the surf season (which they think is summer). In my game we are used to interacting with both state and federal departments and I understand the way they go about things. The main thing to remember is that things are done slowly ( thoroughly) and with plenty of consultation and discussion (red tape).


Wasn't there a guy posting a link to a site that does just that(or something similar) a few weeks ago
smicko
smicko

WA

2503 posts

19 Jul 2012 5:26pm
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jbshack said...

smicko said...

Rodney you should employ the use of a spell checker, at least then your nonsensical arguments may carry a little more weight.


Are you serous. You're that bad a sport that because i disagree with you on something you'll pull that card.[}:)]

Maybe a little help as i checked back and can't see any glaring spelling issues(not saying there isn't any)

Oh and if there is you can blame the spell checker


Yes I'm serous.
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