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Zuke said..

Surf69 said..
Hey Zuke...sounds more realistic based on .....?

Based on all the anecdotal evidence over the past 5 to 10 years. The attacks, personal encounters, feedback from other water users such as surfers, divers and professional fisherman. I know this is not scientific evidence and is not used by scientists hence the term anecdotal evidence but this does not make it wrong either.

I'm not having a go at you Surf69 but you quoted the 750 figure, "It’s considered that there is a population of GW’s that are transient along the WA coast of about 750 +/-." and that sounded unrealistically low to me personally based on my experience and the above mentioned anecdotal evidence.

As with smicko, I don't want to see drum lines up and down the coast just off our beaches but I didn't shed a tear when the one off Mandurah was caught either.

Anecdotal is still evidence and in some cases can be your base line. I should have and will next time clarify and be specific with classification of Data or numbers. I t just looses too many in the detail and i cant summarize in short, which you may have noticed (Its a gift)

I once had to, and at times still get to see more data than most, i like to see more than most and get caught up thinking that everyone should have the info etc....

Especially when i see things like the other day...." they seem to be sustaining very well" type comment, that was pretty funny but actually represents what people think a lot of the time, but as my kawan Made Ropik once said..." Banchong may seem like sexy lady......but is not!"

They seem to be seen almost as much as dolphins and dolphins seem to be doing pretty well. They seem to be seen almost as much as southern rights and they seem to be doing pretty well. Unless there's just one but he's really busy.

Nothing like a bit of Vic photos
Maybe he is the man to speak to about Noah.

How's those sea shepherd guys? Pretending to be all greenie when really they're out there fishing for shark from their big boats ... boats they might even have bought from the bjshack!

Seems to me it would be nuts to go out when there seems to be so many, seems way to risky.

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Legion said..
How's those sea shepherd guys? Pretending to be all greenie when really they're out there fishing for shark from their big boats ... boats they might even have bought from the bjshack!

Yeah, its good to see Sea Shepherd getting stuck in and having go.

Good article in this week's Post: postnewspapers.com.au

Page 7.

History of attacks in WA, drum lines, logic rather than emotion. Worth a read.

Thanks Bene, was a good read. Addresses some good points argued on both sides of the debate - Unusually ballanced

As common as Dolphins? That's a good one.

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jbshack said..

Zuke said..
Nice find smicko but the Professor is quoting the WA Department of Fisheries estimated numbers of between 3500 and 5400 in the SW of WA and not his own numbers. These numbers are a credible estimate based on their research but the research is ongoing which means the White Sharks protection will not be removed any time soon.

These numbers certainly sound a lot more realistic than 749!

No one has even answer me how after killing 100, 200, 5000 great white sharks, will i be protected when a large shark swims up to me in the water

Yes I have Rod, but you never bother reading what anyone else has to say on the matter, you just launch into another bloody rant.

I gave a multi tiered solution a couple of posts prior to your rant above, one that does not kill a single White and will greatly reduce the risk to us as water users.

I'll quote it in the next post because I can't be arsed writing it all out again for you to not read. Seriously mate you and your ilk are about as much use in this debate as Buster.

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smicko said..

MickPC said..
Oh so now estimates by Professor Peter Harrison who was instrumental in having the species listed as vulnerable in the first place are not as important. It needs support from fisheries.

I have been highly skeptical of statements made by marine biologists for a long time now, they've lost my trust. Unfortunately the way things are with trying to attract government funding to continue research & for some people to continue being employed. There is no alternative other than to say more research is required in the face of any other option.

Yeah you're right Mick, they're always gonna push for more research.

I just don't think an extended cull is a viable option. Take out problem animals by all means, just like last week. But having baits permanently in the water during the migration will bring them in close just like the pots do.

I really think the solution is to retrain them to avoid humans and stop berleying our inshore coastline during their migration. Ban cage diving, spend five years with the current cage boat operators being gov funded to berley the bastards up then hit em with a taser so they learn to bolt when they hear boats and smell berley. The amount of times I've seen a big Noah show up within minutes of the anchor chain running out is nuts. And secondly reintroduce the closed season on the crays or at least make it a minimum of 10ks offshore, from June to December.

This one Rod....

People are chatting all over the web and stating the increased attacks have been over the past 10 years. Well the attacks started to increase over 20 years not 9 or 10. This was long before the commercial shark fishing was banned in Perth waters and not so recent as people feel. Having debates doesn't achieve much as it takes a beating to near death to change either party's views. When I research/surf for answers on the net, I see people use stats from dives that are in controlled studies and these don't show the same evidence as a shark that is in a natural feed zone. In most studies taken while cage diving find the GWS are calmer and more particular. This would be because the sharks are now so adjusted to the boats and cages they don't need to act fast they also know the feed is hanging off the rope and not in the cage. Can we be sure these types of study's are the same as a natural hunt and catch?
Research has done some amazing things, like a pattern & stripped wet suit. I have watched the promotion to this wet suit and they show great results. The only problem is, it only creates caution to the shark, eventually the caution wears off and the shark comes to investigate. Not a real secure feeling, just a delay. The dive wet suit gave best results though.
And for what I have seen on magnets, well the shark ate the magnet in 1 film and wasn't the slightest bit bothered in another.
At present we have a control measure that could work, fishing. But I too understand that we visit the ocean and this is the place for the shark to live. When I watch the videos of the 4 meter and above sharks swimming around the shark dive boats, I am too in awe. But at the end of the day I care for human life more than any other, be this selfish or human nature.
The sad part of all the people that have lost their lives over the past 20 years, are I believe they were all wonderful people.
As we are still waiting for the answer from science, are we willing to lose another wonderful person?
Useless stat, February is so far the safest month to go in the water, the only month that has had no fatal attack in the past 20 years off the WA coast, and Victoria is the safest place in Australia.

No wonderful person should ever die, but to be honest I still think there's too many oxygen thieves on the planet that we are better off without. Pedo's, rapist and murders for s start......perhaps we could dangle that lot off big lines out to sea away from the surf dive and swimming beaches lile free vending machine for sharks? Save some serious tax payers dollars as well!

And beating a drum that heaps are sick of if we really value Human life so much, why aren't we putting the same effort and attention to the hundreds of people that are killed on roads?, the shark debate is really active with heaps including myself getting into it but unfortunately I've lost too many wonderfull people to road accidents and no one seems to give a ****, we've accepted or become complacent to the road toll and flip,out at sharks.

anyway, bad humans on the line out at see to feed curious sharks seems like a win win? And we'll never run out of bait.

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smicko said..

smicko said..

MickPC said..
Oh so now estimates by Professor Peter Harrison who was instrumental in having the species listed as vulnerable in the first place are not as important. It needs support from fisheries.

I have been highly skeptical of statements made by marine biologists for a long time now, they've lost my trust. Unfortunately the way things are with trying to attract government funding to continue research & for some people to continue being employed. There is no alternative other than to say more research is required in the face of any other option.

Yeah you're right Mick, they're always gonna push for more research.

I just don't think an extended cull is a viable option. Take out problem animals by all means, just like last week. But having baits permanently in the water during the migration will bring them in close just like the pots do.

I really think the solution is to retrain them to avoid humans and stop berleying our inshore coastline during their migration. Ban cage diving, spend five years with the current cage boat operators being gov funded to berley the bastards up then hit em with a taser so they learn to bolt when they hear boats and smell berley. The amount of times I've seen a big Noah show up within minutes of the anchor chain running out is nuts. And secondly reintroduce the closed season on the crays or at least make it a minimum of 10ks offshore, from June to December.

This one Rod....

Smicko with all due respect, i have read that, and i get what your saying, but i think you have still not answered my question.

Cull all you like, have baits swimming around but when your sitting in the water, a large shark has now singled you out and swimming toward you, how has any of the above helped you at that moment in time How is any of that going to protect you then and there in that moment

IMHO the only real option is to mitigate yourself someway, IE with a barrier like a enclosure, a shark shield if your diving or a Rpela or shark shield surfing version. Hell i don't care if its the black strips on your board, we have to try something to stop that ONE shark that has just singled you out..Thats my point. You could half the number of sharks, it still only takes one interaction between a water user and a Great White and your toast..

Congratulations on surprising me yet again.

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jbshack said..

smicko said..

smicko said..

MickPC said..
Oh so now estimates by Professor Peter Harrison who was instrumental in having the species listed as vulnerable in the first place are not as important. It needs support from fisheries.

I have been highly skeptical of statements made by marine biologists for a long time now, they've lost my trust. Unfortunately the way things are with trying to attract government funding to continue research & for some people to continue being employed. There is no alternative other than to say more research is required in the face of any other option.

Yeah you're right Mick, they're always gonna push for more research.

I just don't think an extended cull is a viable option. Take out problem animals by all means, just like last week. But having baits permanently in the water during the migration will bring them in close just like the pots do.

I really think the solution is to retrain them to avoid humans and stop berleying our inshore coastline during their migration. Ban cage diving, spend five years with the current cage boat operators being gov funded to berley the bastards up then hit em with a taser so they learn to bolt when they hear boats and smell berley. The amount of times I've seen a big Noah show up within minutes of the anchor chain running out is nuts. And secondly reintroduce the closed season on the crays or at least make it a minimum of 10ks offshore, from June to December.

This one Rod....

Smicko with all due respect, i have read that, and i get what your saying, but i think you have still not answered my question.

Cull all you like, have baits swimming around but when your sitting in the water, a large shark has now singled you out and swimming toward you, how has any of the above helped you at that moment in time How is any of that going to protect you then and there in that moment

IMHO the only real option is to mitigate yourself someway, IE with a barrier like a enclosure, a shark shield if your diving or a Rpela or shark shield surfing version. Hell i don't care if its the black strips on your board, we have to try something to stop that ONE shark that has just singled you out..Thats my point. You could half the number of sharks, it still only takes one interaction between a water user and a Great White and your toast..

Rod the whole point is to reduce the number of Whites that come close inshore by training them to avoid contact with boats and people via non lethal methods (A quick zap. Kinda like a shark shield or a rpela ) and to stop berleying up the surf zone and attracting them inshore. Ya see, the idea is that if there's less Great Whites swimming around the surf zone (not less in the ocean as a whole, just that we stop ringing the dinner bell and attracting them into the surf zone during their migration) then the chance of anyone encountering one will be greatly reduced.

And guess what that means? Less dead people and less dead sharks!!! It's a win/win situation.

If you and and your rabid greenie mates would stop raving on about culling and start raving on about stopping cage diving and stopping craypots being dropped in the lineup from June through November there would be no-one calling for a cull because there would be no need for a cull.

Did you catch that bit?

NO NEED FOR A CULL.

NO
NEED
FOR
A
CULL

As you so rightly said, once you are in the lineup with a big White you are potentially toast. By all means wear a shield or a magnet or stripes or a titanium pharken butt plug for all I care but don't you reckon it'd make more sense to just stop dropping berley bombs in the surf zone and to stop teaching two tonne sharks that boats and the human form mean food?

I had a run in with a big White a month before Ben was taken at Wedge and let me tell you it's a ****ing sobering experience paddling straight at something the size of a station wagon that's ready to launch at you. It goes against the instinct of every cell in your body but there's really naff all else you can do other than try to bluff your way out of it.

Just for the record, I'm getting a Rpela in my new stick, the Sea Lions have started showing up on the beaches where I surf again and it's never a good sign when those guys are too nervous to go in the water.

Wow common ground

Smicko, can you please provide more of an account of your recent encounter.

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DARTH said..
Wow common ground

We've always had common ground Nath, that's the bloody point that I've been trying to get across for the last three years.

I've never been for an all out cull with lines permanently in the water, about as clever as dropping craypots in the lineup. Taking out the odd one that is being a menace is another matter entirely.

And better still, stop training them to eat people with cage diving, stop berleying them up to boats for the same purpose and stop dropping craypots full of bait in the surf zone during the White migration. Then we won't have the ****en issue in the first place.

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Andy T said..
Smicko, can you please provide more of an account of your recent encounter.

Wasn't recent Andy, it was a month before Ben Linden was taken at Wedge. Not much too it, sitting on my board and came up over a swell to see a big White arched, ready to launch at me in the swell behind. Made a very quick assessment of the distance to shore and knew I had no chance so paddled straight at its head and it relaxed and sunk off the back of the bank and I spun and took the wave straight in. It had apparently been sniffing around some other crew at another wave up there the same day.

I wish you'd warned us. I was there two weeks after that parked right where the response vehicles parked two weeks later, for a six hour solo session. Maybe that's why there was no-one within 500m all day.

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smicko said...

Andy T said..
Smicko, can you please provide more of an account of your recent encounter.

Wasn't recent Andy, it was a month before Ben Linden was taken at Wedge. Not much too it, sitting on my board and came up over a swell to see a big White arched, ready to launch at me in the swell behind. Made a very quick assessment of the distance to shore and knew I had no chance so paddled straight at its head and it relaxed and sunk off the back of the bank and I spun and took the wave straight in. It had apparently been sniffing around some other crew at another wave up there the same day.

I did the same to a big tiger up north a few years back. I didn't see the shark until it bolted, but I paddled hard to get out to the wave and it took off. Apparently that's not normal prey behaviour.

Now the titanium butt plug got me attention...

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Legion said..
I wish you'd warned us. I was there two weeks after that parked right where the response vehicles parked two weeks later, for a six hour solo session. Maybe that's why there was no-one within 500m all day.

It wasn't there Legion, was too big for it so I ended up a little bit up the beach. It was pretty solid and breaking a lonnnngggg way out, lotsa bait, water had that fishy smell, high tide and the week leading up to the new moon, Mully water. I should've known better.
June, July, August that year was just sketchy as, I came across at least four dead Sea Lions with chunks out and one Dolphin that had been taken off just behind the head on the beach over a couple of months.
I don't reckon I ever recall seeing the water as alive as it consistently was over the Winter of 2012, just so much bait getting hammered all the time. Mackies were caught right through the year and I distinctly remember one cracking session in August where I got too hot in a 3/2 and ended up surfing in boardies and a rashie.

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thedrip said..

smicko said...

Andy T said..
Smicko, can you please provide more of an account of your recent encounter.

Wasn't recent Andy, it was a month before Ben Linden was taken at Wedge. Not much too it, sitting on my board and came up over a swell to see a big White arched, ready to launch at me in the swell behind. Made a very quick assessment of the distance to shore and knew I had no chance so paddled straight at its head and it relaxed and sunk off the back of the bank and I spun and took the wave straight in. It had apparently been sniffing around some other crew at another wave up there the same day.

I did the same to a big tiger up north a few years back. I didn't see the shark until it bolted, but I paddled hard to get out to the wave and it took off. Apparently that's not normal prey behaviour.

Now the titanium butt plug got me attention...

crownedjewels.co.uk/shop/crowned-jewels-sex-toy-collection/upminster-titanium-butt-plug/

Looks like a pretty good seal, should stop thedrip

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smicko said..

Andy T said..
Smicko, can you please provide more of an account of your recent encounter.

Wasn't recent Andy, it was a month before Ben Linden was taken at Wedge. Not much too it, sitting on my board and came up over a swell to see a big White arched, ready to launch at me in the swell behind. Made a very quick assessment of the distance to shore and knew I had no chance so paddled straight at its head and it relaxed and sunk off the back of the bank and I spun and took the wave straight in. It had apparently been sniffing around some other crew at another wave up there the same day.

A mate described this course of action to me about 10 years ago to break a sharks predatory cycle. Stoked I havn't had to test it so far *touch wood*...well done man!

I reckon the worst thing you can do is put your back to the ocean and start splashing madly for shore!

I always stay on my board, keep my eye on the shark and gently stroke backwards until a wave comes.

Never been charged by a shark but if I am I'll be doing what you did smicko, good f#*&in' call!!!

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smicko said..

DARTH said..
Wow common ground

We've always had common ground Nath, that's the bloody point that I've been trying to get across for the last three years.

I've never been for an all out cull with lines permanently in the water, about as clever as dropping craypots in the lineup. Taking out the odd one that is being a menace is another matter entirely.

And better still, stop training them to eat people with cage diving, stop berleying them up to boats for the same purpose and stop dropping craypots full of bait in the surf zone during the White migration. Then we won't have the ****en issue in the first place.

I agree we have common ground, but sadly the semantics of one side or the other get drowned out. I have no problem in working at solutions on water safety with a pro culler. I disagree its the answer, but that shouldn't stop constructive progression forward.

Have i ever said i support cage diving? For the record the people you'd tag as "green radicals" have been working on baits and cray pots. But sadly its an issue that i cant see going anywhere. Im not un full support of cage diving, but Rec fishermen IMHO are just as responsible in teaching sharks to approach boats. I aged up scuba diving years ago and i am very careful letting my kids swim of boats for that very reason.

How do you work a shared zone. IE is it okay to ban beach fishing so i can surf safely or do you ban surfing near fisherman

Its a shared space IMHO

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jayet said..
I reckon the worst thing you can do is put your back to the ocean and start splashing madly for shore!

I always stay on my board, keep my eye on the shark and gently stroke backwards until a wave comes.

Never been charged by a shark but if I am I'll be doing what you did smicko, good f#*&in' call!!!

I know it gets laughed down but what smicko did is exactly what was shared to me in our shark diving experiences.. Look the shark in the eye, make direct contact and it will help. Also make yourself bigger in the water column, so when we were swimming with the sharks if we wanted them to approach, lay flat in the water. If we didn't want them so close stand tall. Keep your arms in and don't flail around.

Yes before someone has a go, i appreciate when you don't see a shark coming theres not really anything you could do. If you cant see it, then theres a good chance it cant see you too clearly either. I believe that many of us have had a positive shark experience and just didn't know it, positive in that it saw you, checked you out and swam of as you were not suitable to eat..