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Why are Fins so......

Created by Ted the Kiwi Ted the Kiwi  > 9 months ago, 8 Jul 2012
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maloo
maloo

QLD

8 posts

9 Jul 2012 11:28am
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CMC said...

boofy said...

In my humble but honest opinion I think fin size and placement is an issue but the whole fin flexibility and fibreglass carbon thing is bullshiz unless your Kelly maybe its like putting a flair kit on a 6cyl VB commodore to make it go faster


I disagree. I think flex and foil are just as or even more important in some ways.

Take the same fin dead stiff in solid carbon or in that old black soft plastic or even just a nice fiberglass fin and your board will feel like night and day.


maloo
maloo

QLD

8 posts

9 Jul 2012 11:31am
well, to my knowledge, most fin manufacturers make them off shore, mainly china, fcs and future the 2 biggest notably, there are heaps of great glass fins in OZ, the guy who used to make raptor stuff is one of the best
Select to expand quote
CMC said...

boofy said...

In my humble but honest opinion I think fin size and placement is an issue but the whole fin flexibility and fibreglass carbon thing is bullshiz unless your Kelly maybe its like putting a flair kit on a 6cyl VB commodore to make it go faster


I disagree. I think flex and foil are just as or even more important in some ways.

Take the same fin dead stiff in solid carbon or in that old black soft plastic or even just a nice fiberglass fin and your board will feel like night and day.


Simondo
Simondo

VIC

8024 posts

9 Jul 2012 12:10pm
The industry would be a tough one to make a dollar in...

Just look at Base to start with... Everything looked good for a while, but that went down. Also Billabong & Quikky share prices have been hammered, and I'm sure they struggle...

My brother likes Josh Dowling's work. I think Josh was previously in the industrial area in Ocean Grove. He's now moved into a 'Farmhouse Shed' on Barwon Heads Rd, in Marshall, and pays the owner about $100/week (I believe).
www.joshdowlingshape.com/
(cool farmhouse shed too... Morning of the Earth style !! )

A good mate of mine, Michael Van der Klooster owns and runs Vanda (Surfboards). His shaping bay is the shed of his Grandma's palce, so his rent is $0 !! He doesn't even have a website going.

Sort of gives you an idea of what these guys can afford...

Another guy in Jan Juc makes some OK timber core fins, with clear resin/fibreglass lay-ups. He hand foils the timber cores, then applies the glass, foils that back, and finish coats and buffing/glassing etc. He is competing with other fins available in Torquay, such as the True Ames range (at Hydrophylic / South Coast). True Ames range of single fins is mostly $70-$120, depending on size, design, etc. So this other guy in Juc sells for about $80-$100. I would estimate his time per fin is about 2.5-3hrs, plus talking to customers, driving around to other shops, dropping stock off... Like 4 fins at a time... So I would think his hourly rate must be under $20/hr. (You can earn more than that doing house cleaning...)...
SP
SP

SP

10982 posts

9 Jul 2012 1:01pm
Select to expand quote
CMC said...

BulldogPup said...

Is the Australian wage and or economy impacting on this as well CM? .... I don't believe any of us want to see the drivers smashed , we'll have nothing then.


Of course Pup, rent, wages, taxes etc are the highest here pretty much in the world. We complain the prices are high here in comparison meanwhile shops are shutting daily. How profitable is retail?? As a wholesale supplier it's one of the most expensive regions in the world. Freight is expensive, there's low concentration accounts in most areas outside of Sydney or the Gold Coast.

US retailers do not work on the same margins as Aussies, they have 100 times the market size to sell to so they don't have to.

As I said above we are only noticing this now as the dollar is so high that it makes it cheaper.

Thanks for the replies last night mate, I can understand why you deleted them...

But why is the OZ dollar being high causing prices to be relatively higher? I would of thought that cause our dollar has appreciated against the US it would mean that any good purchased overseas in US dollars would drop in price, in our market.

So I don't understand how retailers blame the high dollar, their input cost should reduce? Sure wages etc are the same but a reduction in production cost, ie anything paid for in US dollars, Chinese labour materials...etc etc should reduce? no.

CMC
CMC

CMC

QLD

3954 posts

9 Jul 2012 3:21pm
Select to expand quote
SP said...

CMC said...

BulldogPup said...

Is the Australian wage and or economy impacting on this as well CM? .... I don't believe any of us want to see the drivers smashed , we'll have nothing then.


Of course Pup, rent, wages, taxes etc are the highest here pretty much in the world. We complain the prices are high here in comparison meanwhile shops are shutting daily. How profitable is retail?? As a wholesale supplier it's one of the most expensive regions in the world. Freight is expensive, there's low concentration accounts in most areas outside of Sydney or the Gold Coast.

US retailers do not work on the same margins as Aussies, they have 100 times the market size to sell to so they don't have to.

As I said above we are only noticing this now as the dollar is so high that it makes it cheaper.



CMC, why is the OZ dollar being high causing prices to be relatively higher? I would of thought that cause our dollar has appreciated against the US it would mean that any good purchased overseas in US dollars would drop in price, in our market.

So I don't understand how retailers blame the high dollar, their input cost should reduce? Sure wages etc are the same but a reduction in production cost, ie anything paid for in US dollars, Chinese labour materials...etc etc should reduce?


Mate not having a go at you just sick of importers screaming they are getting screwed, they have picked up an effective price drop and still scream cause we buy overseas.




Not relatively higher here, relatively lower there.

Say a set of fins has always been $120AUD here in Australia and $80USD in the States. At .75 USD/AUD that's $106. Throw in $15 freight and it's the same price so just the same to go to your local store. This is how it was.

BUT, with parody the same situation means $95AUD so worth buying O/S. Add to this a US retailer selling off some overstock and discounting 30% and you save a crap load buying from the US in comparison to your local store.

Yes, the strong AUD or more correctly weak USD means the AUD buys more USD BUT.... The weak USD even against the Asian currencies means the prices from the factories in USD has increased also to earn the same amount of their local currency. The price imported to Aust remains the same as it was. Check banking sites to see the value of the USD vs the RMB or wherever historically.

In the US to stay competitive companies have simply cut margins, the GFC has not enabled any real price increases even though the price of products to import has increased. It's why Obama is pushing heavily to bring manufacturing back to USA.

To cut a long story short the economic crisis has impacted this industry heavily, wild currency fluctuation, increasing labour costs and the emergence of online retail and big box sell offs are playing havoc with the entire industry. Look at the bankruptcies, share devaluations etc.

Sorry if all of this stuff bores you guys but I just wanted to make the point that there is no conspiracy to rip anyone off, most are struggling to just survive. Add into this the effects of the Japanese Tsunami, European Crisis also and you have real problems.

chrispychru
chrispychru

QLD

7932 posts

9 Jul 2012 3:25pm
cmc and others your arguments dont wash with me. my point which none off you are getting is.... why does a product cost say $10 in the states and the exact same product costs us aussies $30? im not arguing about technology and wot not. i want to know why i pay more for something than everyone else, ESPECIALLY if its a AUSSIE OWNED company. i will go with the itunes rort again, why do aplle do it, SCAM
SP
SP

SP

10982 posts

9 Jul 2012 1:27pm
^ Yep, ok... Not boring, good explanation....

I'll leave you alone now .


CMC
CMC

CMC

QLD

3954 posts

9 Jul 2012 3:30pm
Select to expand quote
chrispychru said...

cmc and others your arguments dont wash with me. my point which none off you are getting is.... why does a product cost say $10 in the states and the exact same product costs us aussies $30? im not arguing about technology and wot not. i want to know why i pay more for something than everyone else, ESPECIALLY if its a AUSSIE OWNED company. i will go with the itunes rort again, why do aplle do it, SCAM


It's just how things are. You can't have high wages and low costs, we get to have one or the other....... Low wages, low costs or high wages high costs.

We now pretty much officially live in the most expensive country in the world.
chrispychru
chrispychru

QLD

7932 posts

9 Jul 2012 3:37pm
Select to expand quote
CMC said...

chrispychru said...

cmc and others your arguments dont wash with me. my point which none off you are getting is.... why does a product cost say $10 in the states and the exact same product costs us aussies $30? im not arguing about technology and wot not. i want to know why i pay more for something than everyone else, ESPECIALLY if its a AUSSIE OWNED company. i will go with the itunes rort again, why do aplle do it, SCAM


It's just how things are. You can't have high wages and low costs, we get to have one or the other....... Low wages, low costs or high wages high costs.

We now pretty much officially live in the most expensive country in the world.


yes cmc,BUT if they are making money elsewhere on their product, why are we not getting the same luxury? even before the gfc this same **** was happening. next they will be using the carbon tax as a excuse
more retailers would be making more money if people can afford to spend it. our dollar might be high,yet i dont think the majority off this country are doing it any easier than others.
doggie
doggie

WA

15849 posts

9 Jul 2012 1:41pm
Select to expand quote
CMC said...

chrispychru said...

cmc and others your arguments dont wash with me. my point which none off you are getting is.... why does a product cost say $10 in the states and the exact same product costs us aussies $30? im not arguing about technology and wot not. i want to know why i pay more for something than everyone else, ESPECIALLY if its a AUSSIE OWNED company. i will go with the itunes rort again, why do aplle do it, SCAM


It's just how things are. You can't have high wages and low costs, we get to have one or the other....... Low wages, low costs or high wages high costs.

We now pretty much officially live in the most expensive country in the world.

I never pay full retail for fins, and I dont buy them off the net.
newguy
newguy

654 posts

9 Jul 2012 2:00pm
Is new fins really going to make you surf better?
Ted the Kiwi
Ted the Kiwi

NSW

14256 posts

9 Jul 2012 4:03pm
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newguy said...

Is new fins really going to make you surf better?


not in yr fin boxes

Sorry cheap shot but I could not resist!

doggie
doggie

WA

15849 posts

9 Jul 2012 2:06pm
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newguy said...

Is new fins really going to make you surf better?


Depends, they will if you pick the right ones.
SP
SP

SP

10982 posts

9 Jul 2012 2:07pm
hilarious ted... Nice cheap shot... I can see why you like Steve mati


Yes the right fins make a diff Newguy a massive difference, specially in a LB.

You wouldn't put ****ty rubber on a race car would you.. Although you'd probably repair you're tyres with duct tape and solarez.
GizzieNZ
GizzieNZ

4103 posts

9 Jul 2012 2:37pm
Even the price of fins made in giz have nearly doubled in price recently
www.trademe.co.nz/sports/surfing/fins/auction-492007459.htm
.....oh and changed their name also
newguy
newguy

654 posts

9 Jul 2012 4:00pm

Hahahahaha good one guys thought I'd lighten the mood a bit. Was getting 'SUP hate' intense. By the way, dodgy fin plug job is going strong. Alas the centre fin will forever be stuck as a white plastic fcs
62mac
62mac

WA

24860 posts

9 Jul 2012 4:38pm
Select to expand quote
newguy said...

Is new fins really going to make you surf better?

Right board right fins for sure,get a McT up ya newguy

GizzieNZ
GizzieNZ

4103 posts

10 Jul 2012 4:24pm
Select to expand quote
GizzieNZ said...

Even the price of fins made in giz have nearly doubled in price recently
www.trademe.co.nz/sports/surfing/fins/auction-492007459.htm
.....oh and changed their name also


Anonymous "red thumb people"........are they simply cowardly or
too lazy to put their thoughts in writing
....I lean towards the "cowardly" theory myself
Ted the Kiwi
Ted the Kiwi

NSW

14256 posts

10 Jul 2012 6:32pm
Select to expand quote
GizzieNZ said...

GizzieNZ said...

Even the price of fins made in giz have nearly doubled in price recently
www.trademe.co.nz/sports/surfing/fins/auction-492007459.htm
.....oh and changed their name also


Anonymous "red thumb people"........are they simply cowardly or
too lazy to put their thoughts in writing
....I lean towards the "cowardly" theory myself


fixed it for yr Gizzie - no need to take any notice of those red thumbs in the greenroom!!!!
towball
towball

4634 posts

10 Jul 2012 4:34pm
It's not me gizz ^^^^mac will sort em out
towball
towball

4634 posts

10 Jul 2012 4:37pm
Bit lonley in the mornings lush isn't talking , pipe f-- keeps running away
Ted the Kiwi
Ted the Kiwi

NSW

14256 posts

11 Jul 2012 12:59pm
Seems this discussion has prompted a wider response from other members of the community - mainly the Reserve Bank and the SMH Here is an article from Ross Gittins a well respected fella here in Sydney that appeared last night. Its a long read but it puts a lot of what CMC said into perspective. Its well worth a read.



Farmers good, big retailers bad - could that really be true?


Read more: www.smh.com.au/politics/federal/farmers-good-big-retailers-bad-could-that-really-be-true-20120710-21tue.html


As you shop, think about all the costs involved in getting a product to the shelves.

WHEN you buy something in a supermarket or a department store, how much of the price that you pay is the store's mark-up? And of that mark-up, how much covers the store's costs and how much is clear profit? Everyone has their own answers to these questions. But I suspect most of those answers are based on vague impressions and long-held prejudices rather than hard evidence.

When I was growing up, we were always hearing about the depredations of ''middlemen''. The poor farmers got terribly low prices for their meat and other produce, but by the time that produce went through many hands to reach us in the city, the prices were sky-high.
<em>Illustration: Simon Letch</em>

Illustration: Simon Letch

These days, we hear continually about the evil practices of the two big supermarket chains. They're busy screwing the life out of dairy farmers and other suppliers, just so they can use cheap milk and bread to lure us into their stores.
Advertisement

This may sound like a good thing for consumers beset by an ever-rising cost of living, but don't be fooled, we're told. The wicked retailers may be undercharging for a few staples, but they make up for it by overcharging for everything else.

Then there are all the people discovering from the internet just how much lower prices are in other countries. More proof we're being ripped off.

In the hands of the media, it's a morality tale. The farmers and manufacturers are the good guys getting squeezed; the big retailers and other middlemen are the bad guys raking it in and doing us down.

It would be good to measure all these impressions against some hard statistical facts - facts supplied by an article in the latest issue of the Reserve Bank's Bulletin, on which I'll be drawing heavily.

Part of the problem is our lack of imagination. Many of us have only a vague idea of the role played by the businesses that operate between primary and secondary producers and you and me.

Most retail goods - including food and non-alcoholic drinks, clothing, footwear, electrical equipment, furniture and home appliances, and motor vehicles, but not ''meals out'' or takeaways - are produced in factories, whether locally or overseas.

The basic cost of producing those goods includes the cost of transporting them to wholesalers' warehouses, plus import duty where still applicable. Wholesalers incur costs in storing goods and transporting them around the country to retailers, plus normal administrative costs. Retailers incur costs of rent, storage, display, finance and other costs.

Naturally, both wholesalers and retailers employ many workers to help them carry out their role, not of making goods, but of distributing them into hands of consumers across the nation. Indeed, the work of this ''retail supply chain'' accounts for about 7 per cent of the final value of all goods and services sold in Australia (gross domestic product) and about 10 per cent of total employment. So one worker in 10 is employed as a supposedly unproductive ''middleman''.

On average, the manufactured cost of the goods we buy accounts for about half the retail prices we pay. About 40 per cent of the prices we pay covers the costs incurred by wholesalers and retailers, with wage costs accounting for a bit less than 20 per cent and other costs for a bit more than 20 per cent.

That means the wholesalers' and retailers' net profits account for only about 10 per cent of the prices we pay, with about three-quarters of that going to the retailers.

Of course, these overall averages differ for different products. Whereas the gross profit margin (that is, before allowing for expenses) averages 50 per cent, it's closer to 60 per cent for clothing and footwear, a bit over 50 per cent for electrical equipment, a bit under 50 for furniture and appliances, about 40 per cent for food and drink, and just 25 per cent for motor vehicles.

Gross margins also vary according to the size of retail outlets and the speed at which stock turns over. Margins are higher in boutique stores than department stores, and higher in small convenience stores than big supermarkets, where the profit-making emphasis is on rapid turnover rather than high margins.

The Reserve Bank's detailed examination covered the figures for the nine years to 2007-08, though other checks suggest they have not changed much since then. It found the production prices of locally manufactured goods rose quite strongly over the period. As well, the wage rates and other costs paid by wholesalers and retailers rose by more than 3 per cent a year.

Even so, the final prices of retail goods rose by only about 1 per cent a year. So much for the notion that retailers have been getting greedier.

But how have they managed to turn costs rising by 3 per cent or so a year into retail prices rising by 1 per cent and do so without suffering any squeeze in their net profit margins?

Because, though business people are always assuring us there's nothing they can do but pass higher costs on to us, in truth there's a lot they can do.

One thing they've done is increasingly substitute cheaper imported goods for ever-more-expensive locally made goods. If that worries you, have a look at my little video on the website or iPad app.

The other thing they've done is raise the productivity of their labour, with the volume of their sales rising a lot faster than the total hours of the workers they employ. They've invested in labour-saving equipment.

And note this: why have they been working so hard to limit their price rises? Because of the power of market forces - in this case, customers who don't like paying more.

Ross Gittins is a senior columnist.

Read more: www.smh.com.au/opinion/politics/farmers-good-big-retailers-bad--could-that-really-be-true-20120710-21tue.html#ixzz20H72Lozp
SP
SP

SP

10982 posts

11 Jul 2012 11:08am
Nice article Ted, i was going to post yesterday...

did you notice that the last 2 stories from ross.. the cow one and the one you posted are nearly identical, Ross is lazy me thinks..
arkgee
arkgee

NSW

639 posts

11 Jul 2012 2:42pm
have a shot at making your own fins guys....you will never complain again...I wonder why the f@ck they are so cheap.
doggie
doggie

WA

15849 posts

11 Jul 2012 12:45pm
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arkgee said...

have a shot at making your own fins guys....you will never complain again...I wonder why the f@ck they are so cheap.


FCS must use a mould to make their fins otherwise how could they make so many?
62mac
62mac

WA

24860 posts

11 Jul 2012 1:36pm
This will explain why.A young bloke goes out on the p-ss and drinks over 100 in just one night,fins v one night on the p-ss.Take your family out to a half decent restaurant no change out of couple hundred,go to the footy a few drinks well over a hundred.
Shortboards 600/900 Longboard 900/2000,set of good fins can always go into the new stick.

www.news.com.au/finance/money/rolling-in-it-aussies-earning-more-than-everyone-else/news-story/88244782a5fb3beda11a2f015120a785
BulldogPup
BulldogPup

6657 posts

11 Jul 2012 2:18pm
Select to expand quote
arkgee said...

have a shot at making your own fins guys....you will never complain again...I wonder why the f@ck they are so cheap.


standout pieces of art RG !!!


CMC
CMC

CMC

QLD

3954 posts

11 Jul 2012 4:20pm
A very respected shaper once told me that the fins were approximately 30% of the boards performance.

A world champ surfer once told me that they take the exact same set of fins from one board to the next as they knew how much they affected things and at least they could control one factor doing it that way.

Fins fins fins. I am not getting involved again here....
doggie
doggie

WA

15849 posts

11 Jul 2012 2:31pm
Select to expand quote
CMC said...

A very respected shaper once told me that the fins were approximately 30% of the boards performance.

A world champ surfer once told me that they take the exact same set of fins from one board to the next as they knew how much they affected things and at least they could control one factor doing it that way.

Fins fins fins. I am not getting involved again here....


How does FCS make their fins CMC?
CMC
CMC

CMC

QLD

3954 posts

11 Jul 2012 4:41pm
Select to expand quote
doggie said...

CMC said...

A very respected shaper once told me that the fins were approximately 30% of the boards performance.

A world champ surfer once told me that they take the exact same set of fins from one board to the next as they knew how much they affected things and at least they could control one factor doing it that way.

Fins fins fins. I am not getting involved again here....


How does FCS make their fins CMC?


http://www.surffcs.com/au/technology/fins/construction/performanceglass.aspx
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