Expensive relative to other components of a surfboard?

I sometimes do not know whether I should laugh or cry at the prices. It just does not make sense to me. The inputs are cheap but yes moulds can be a little on the expensive side. I am fortunate that I have found a bloke who can provide them delivered at a great price and since then I have collected a few sets and play round with diff combo's etc but generally I use the same set ups. Too lazy to switch them perhaps

Classic hand finished long board fins do require some man hours and skilled labour and I can appreciate it. But some of the FCS and their friends combo's are a joke I reckon. I think they are just taking the p*ss.

Would you own twice as many fin sets at half the price?

What do you fellas reckon?

Rant over

In my humble but honest opinion I think fin size and placement is an issue but the whole fin flexibility and fibreglass carbon thing is bullshiz unless your Kelly maybe its like putting a flair kit on a 6cyl VB commodore to make it go faster

Good question.

If you're talking fiberglass fins you would be seriously surprised at the landed price of the fins even from China. Turns out that making fins and getting itchy from fiberglass is a crap job even in China. Much easier ways to make money.

This means labour shortages in the factories, worker pay rate has to be higher to attract workers and you end up with prices around 25-30% of the retail sale price. Now the importer needs to make a margin, the retailer needs to make money also.

Unless you buy direct from someone importing fins not using the normal channels and not spending any money on product development, marketing, team etc and making poor copies of the products made by the companies that are the prices are not that bad.

Throw in some distribution, product support and a company investing in making better product and supporting the retailers and I think it's not that bad.

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boofy said...

In my humble but honest opinion I think fin size and placement is an issue but the whole fin flexibility and fibreglass carbon thing is bullshiz unless your Kelly maybe its like putting a flair kit on a 6cyl VB commodore to make it go faster

I disagree. I think flex and foil are just as or even more important in some ways.

Take the same fin dead stiff in solid carbon or in that old black soft plastic or even just a nice fiberglass fin and your board will feel like night and day.

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CMC said...

boofy said...

In my humble but honest opinion I think fin size and placement is an issue but the whole fin flexibility and fibreglass carbon thing is bullshiz unless your Kelly maybe its like putting a flair kit on a 6cyl VB commodore to make it go faster

I disagree. I think flex and foil are just as or even more important in some ways.

Take the same fin dead stiff in solid carbon or in that old black soft plastic or even just a nice fiberglass fin and your board will feel like night and day.

CMC maybe its just a reflection of my surfing ability but I can def notice changes in fin size and placement but not fin make up for example I put shapers side bites on my PSH sup and I didnt notice a difference

I'm like you TTK if I didn't get fins from a good bloke at a good price I wouldn't bother. But Boofy in my opinion the hexcore side fins on my mals have made a huge difference over the crap plastic. On one board it turned a lemon into a great board. I now change fins instead of boards and love it. I have quiet a quiver of fins now and enjoy experimenting. Here are my favs;

10 inch Nineplus Keel for my 10 ft'er

7.75 inch Fluid Foils Ezi Trim for my 9'4 with old Kelly lite sides

8 inch Nineplus Magic Carpet for Mal and Sup (Over 4ft days with sides)

Medium Scarfini future fins for Sup


Oh I am 110kegs, so I need a bit of drive lol

Spiro

Thanks CMC I hear what you are saying but I still think they are taking the p*ss. Yes labour may cost a bit extra but it's still cheap. As for fins I definitely notice performance changes between shape, size and flex - have not played around with foil too much as of yet. I took yr advice re quads and have had a few sessions putting the bigger fins at the back - it's been interesting getting a lot more drive and a real eye opener. Cheers

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Ted the Kiwi said...

Thanks CMC I hear what you are saying but I still think they are taking the p*ss. Yes labour may cost a bit extra but it's still cheap. As for fins I definitely notice performance changes between shape, size and flex - have not played around with foil too much as of yet. I took yr advice re quads and have had a few sessions putting the bigger fins at the back - it's been interesting getting a lot more drive and a real eye opener. Cheers

ted, you would be pissed if you knew what the retailers pay from the supplier. mostly a100% mark up, however they generally aren't making nicks from the boards they sell. a new set of fins with the new board helps your local operate.

best to choose wisely or test drive first

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CMC said...

Good question.

If you're talking fiberglass fins you would be seriously surprised at the landed price of the fins even from China. Turns out that making fins and getting itchy from fiberglass is a crap job even in China. Much easier ways to make money.

This means labour shortages in the factories, worker pay rate has to be higher to attract workers and you end up with prices around 25-30% of the retail sale price. Now the importer needs to make a margin, the retailer needs to make money also.

Unless you buy direct from someone importing fins not using the normal channels and not spending any money on product development, marketing, team etc and making poor copies of the products made by the companies that are the prices are not that bad.

Throw in some distribution, product support and a company investing in making better product and supporting the retailers and I think it's not that bad.

so why can i buy the same brand fins for half the price from o.s? its like every market in australia,we are being ****ed and the government should stop it.

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laceys lane said...

Ted the Kiwi said...

Thanks CMC I hear what you are saying but I still think they are taking the p*ss. Yes labour may cost a bit extra but it's still cheap. As for fins I definitely notice performance changes between shape, size and flex - have not played around with foil too much as of yet. I took yr advice re quads and have had a few sessions putting the bigger fins at the back - it's been interesting getting a lot more drive and a real eye opener. Cheers

ted, you would be pissed if you knew what the retailers pay from the supplier. mostly a100% mark up, however they generally aren't making nicks from the boards they sell. a new set of fins with the new board helps your local operate.

best to choose wisely or test drive first

Thanks LL for confirming my worst suspicions....I always knew you would respond to this topic

I guess that my point is that if they charged something more realistic they might find that they sell a lot more fins. Elasticity of demand is the basic concept I am alerting to and from the anecdotal evidence i have gathered around the traps though mates and fellas at the beach I reckon that if the fins were more reasonably priced they would sell a truckload more through the normal channels and everyone would be a winner.

Yes, surf products in the states are sold at a different price to Australia. The exchange rate now at parody is traditionally around 75-80 cents. The 20-30% cheaper surf gear is over there is normally counteracted by exchange and shipping ending up about the same price.

2 things have happened to make it seem like we are getting ripped off compared to other countries. Most other countries economies are doing badly, Australias is doing OK. The net result is that other countries with the benefit of 200 million customers as opposed to 20, lower wages to pay and lower taxes sell more on a volume basis than margin.

The other thing is as they are doing badly they are discounting more widening the gap even more. Aussie retailers are going broke everyday, dropping prices in the expectation of more customers will not work, eBay bandits and rip off merchants have already ripped the guts out of the price focused customer.

As Mark said, FCS and Futures get the blame for the price, I know what they pay for product and as I said it would surprise you how little margin they actually make to sell to it the stores. They're hardware suppliers, the poor end of the Industry. It's not boardshorts you make for $4 and sell for $90. It is so far removed from that it's not even funny.

So I guess I'm saying that if you can get fins off some bloke importing them from China and selling fiberglass fins for $60 or whatever it's because he copied someone elses product and then cut out the retailer. He's making more than the big guys so while you win on price he's ripping off the big guys.

We are being gouged..... Plain and simple..

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SP said...



We are being gouged..... Plain and simple..

If I didn't think it would hurt me, id tell you the margins. Surf Hardware is not I-phones, board shorts or whatever else.

All of these manufacturers would pay in US dollars I assume to their factories, so how does it end up more here than in a USA market..

Same fins, same product, different shelf price.

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SP said...

All of these manufacturers would pay in US dollars I assume to their factories, so how does it end up more here than in a USA market..

Same fins, same product, different shelf price.

Different business model, different market size, different cost of running a business. It's no conspiracy just facts of life. If the dollar wasnt so high it would seem relevant.

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CMC said...

SP said...



We are being gouged..... Plain and simple..

If I didn't think it would hurt me, id tell you the margins. Surf Hardware is not I-phones, board shorts or whatever else.

Yeah mate, I know what my mate who owns a shop gets them for, I don't get how it cost him the same or close enough for the same fins

Future controllers eg. Brought from a shop here are $170 but they can be delivered from the USA from under $100. I don't get that they are the same product, not a knock off..

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CMC said...

SP said...

All of these manufacturers would pay in US dollars I assume to their factories, so how does it end up more here than in a USA market..

Same fins, same product, different shelf price.

Different business model, different market size, different cost of running a business. It's no conspiracy just facts of life. If the dollar wasnt so high it would seem relevant.

Yeah I don't buy the ex rate argument, the extra $$$ have to end up somewhere or are you saying there are additional 30-40% in cost to get to Australia. Sothe additional return is eaten up ?

Or are you saying that these companies have different pricing strategies for there individual markets?

Fins are the perfect "accessory" to an otherwise bland board. A mit like mag wheels on a car. Shiny things are worth whatever the buyer is willing to pay

Note to self, time to get into the fin business.

Hi All,
regarding fins it can make a huge difference to board performance, if you check out the link I provide here , I test an 8' Superfish set up as a 5 fin (with small keel type stabiliser fin at the back) some have critisized this board as a bit skatey set up as a quad, but the addition of the stabilizer fin makes a big difference!



Stay In Trim

Nash

its not just fins. why does a rip curl wetty,which is an aussie company,charge aussies more for a wetty than the poms,yanks etc? scam[}:)]

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chrispychru said...

its not just fins. why does a rip curl wetty,which is an aussie company,charge aussies more for a wetty than the poms,yanks etc? scam[}:)]

yep......

What gets me is that the item leaves the factory having cost the same amount to be made whether its destined for the european, USA or Australian marketplace. We know that its cheap to export product to Australia from China. Its not like they are breaking new ground to do it. Thousands of ships come over every year empty seeking coal. The fact that it then costs significantly more at the RRP to the consumer here in Aus than those other places is more to do with the prices that the companies sell the product to the disturber / importer at not because its a different business model, different market size, different cost of running a business. I reckon its the different model alright - Australian consumers are known to pay more so lets charge them more - this is across the board.....check out electronic products as well and the biggest one is software and iTunes products - these things do not even have delivery costs as you download them yet they are significantly cheaper abroad than here. I think its just that Australians are eternally ripped off by everyone and it sucks. Yes the exchange rate is higher than it had been in a while these last few years so why do they not pass it on to us now so we can benefit?

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Ted the Kiwi said...

chrispychru said...

its not just fins. why does a rip curl wetty,which is an aussie company,charge aussies more for a wetty than the poms,yanks etc? scam[}:)]

yep......

What gets me is that the item leaves the factory having cost the same amount to be made whether its destined for the european, USA or Australian marketplace. We know that its cheap to export product to Australia from China. Its not like they are breaking new ground to do it. Thousands of ships come over every year empty seeking coal. The fact that it then costs significantly more at the RRP to the consumer here in Aus than those other places is more to do with the prices that the companies sell the product to the disturber / importer at not because its a different business model, different market size, different cost of running a business. I reckon its the different model alright - Australian consumers are known to pay more so lets charge them more - this is across the board.....check out electronic products as well and the biggest one is software and iTunes products - these things do not even have delivery costs as you download them yet they are significantly cheaper abroad than here. I think its just that Australians are eternally ripped off by everyone and it sucks. Yes the exchange rate is higher than it had been in a while these last few years so why do they not pass it on to us now so we can benefit?

perfect example with the i tunes ted. maybe aussies would spend more money in aussie shops if we had a fair price for all. [}:)]

Was speaking to a guy down the beach the other day , he's had to give away the factory unit he was leasing & go to his backyard/shed , cannot afford the costs of the lease and cannot afford to pay australian employee award rates - and here's the killer - to sell his wares at competitive $$$
Some of our dilemma is we want and mostly have good wages in Oz , compared to lots of other countries that is , probbly not helping the cause of cheaper goods.
If there was some way of just finding a domestic fin manufacturer/supplier & getting all punters to snavel their wares it would force the hand of other brands

So basically what you guys are saying is that you want to have access to the advancements and technology but you'd prefer the companies that drive it not to make any money.

I get it.


Fins, surfboards and stuff to actually go surfing with are not software items like wetsuits or boardshorts. Companies become global, public listed mega giants selling this stuff.

Let me put it this way. The big surf store at Pacific Fair turns over more money each year than the biggest hardware company in the world.

I understand people feel ripped with the price difference on surfing products but you're barking up the wrong tree thinking these guys are making a lot of money. It's a small market with low margins and large marketing spend to keep people interested.

Believe it or not...

You are right CMC. Profit margin means nothing if sales volumes are low. I have no idea what surf product wholesale practices are, but in other industries wholesale prices are based on volume of sales. If there is a low volume region, prices are up for the retailers in the region.

Is the Australian wage and or economy impacting on this as well CM? .... I don't believe any of us want to see the drivers smashed , we'll have nothing then.

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BulldogPup said...

Is the Australian wage and or economy impacting on this as well CM? .... I don't believe any of us want to see the drivers smashed , we'll have nothing then.

Of course Pup, rent, wages, taxes etc are the highest here pretty much in the world. We complain the prices are high here in comparison meanwhile shops are shutting daily. How profitable is retail?? As a wholesale supplier it's one of the most expensive regions in the world. Freight is expensive, there's low concentration accounts in most areas outside of Sydney or the Gold Coast.

US retailers do not work on the same margins as Aussies, they have 100 times the market size to sell to so they don't have to.

As I said above we are only noticing this now as the dollar is so high that it makes it cheaper.

I appreciate all your insights CMC and your input in this thread. I did not start it to have a go at you or anyone else directly involved in the industry - I was just curious to think what others thought re relative prices and also if people would own more fins at a lesser price. I appreciate that you can not compare directly between industries or sometimes even within certain sectors of an industry. Its just that it p*sses me off sometimes

Lets say a 10 inch fin that was 100 a couple of years back is now 150 fact.Australian made btw.

say 30 layers of cloth at $4/m.

Resin at around $6/kg.

Pigment etc etc.

Time taken to lay up panel, cut out fin, drill pin hole, thickness base, foil fin, clear coat or polish, get extremely itchy doing it.

At $150 per fin Wiz is still probably making about $10 per hour...... You want to love your job in this industry because you're certainly not being paid for the pleasure.