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Ted the Kiwi said...
yes this is a tricky question.....and its been well answered here. I once posted a similar question about fins and CMC gave a fine reason why - will try and find it later....sadly with a strong dollar we are struggling to get a reasonable retail price for fins - when the AUD backs off its only going to get worse....but when it does the local producers will become more competitive all of a sudden. Its a well known fact that Australia is a very expensive place to do business......its also a well known fact that Aussies have been happy to pay overs for stuff for a long time and that this is often exploited if it can be (just ask adobe and apple).

I have made a board and have another in production at the moment.....I think that the prices that people charge for such hand-craftmanship are probably pretty fair if not on the cheap side.

How much does a builder make these days? - Approx $50 hr ard my parts including their tools and IP. A surfboard factory has lots of overheads as previously mentioned so by the time you add these on as well you have to be realistic that the shaper needs some form of return to stay in business - otherwise he /she is better off doing something else. Would you get out of bed for $50 an hour before paying all of your overheads, tools and super?

I think that we need to be careful about this industry....the barriers to entry are low but to build a sustainable business is very tricky. The bigger names have even attempted to join forces and still failed (eg BASE).....its a really tricky business that on surface does not appear to be scalable unless you go MASSIVE (eg cobra) and relocate. The old traditional models seem to be back in favour from what I have seen but I would also say that I am just an observer of the surfboard making industry not a participant.

ted, not many making that dough on the goldie since the gfc. i keep hearing of full tradies working for $25/hr which is rubbish when factor in all the costs mentioned in this post plus if your a chippie you have to have every ubeaut power tool gizmo for every job. most guy would be carting around twenty grand of gear plus stuff another $10,000m plus at home that needs upgrading all the time to be competitive labour wise.

how the hell does $25/hr pay for the insurances, liabilities, lic's, super etc plus get all that gear.

ask how much your mechanic charges per hr. bet its $80 to $85 per hr

honestly it must cost a days wages at least weekly just to work for yourself.

its been pretty sad for 3 years now

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laceys lane said...

Ted the Kiwi said...
yes this is a tricky question.....and its been well answered here. I once posted a similar question about fins and CMC gave a fine reason why - will try and find it later....sadly with a strong dollar we are struggling to get a reasonable retail price for fins - when the AUD backs off its only going to get worse....but when it does the local producers will become more competitive all of a sudden. Its a well known fact that Australia is a very expensive place to do business......its also a well known fact that Aussies have been happy to pay overs for stuff for a long time and that this is often exploited if it can be (just ask adobe and apple).

I have made a board and have another in production at the moment.....I think that the prices that people charge for such hand-craftmanship are probably pretty fair if not on the cheap side.

How much does a builder make these days? - Approx $50 hr ard my parts including their tools and IP. A surfboard factory has lots of overheads as previously mentioned so by the time you add these on as well you have to be realistic that the shaper needs some form of return to stay in business - otherwise he /she is better off doing something else. Would you get out of bed for $50 an hour before paying all of your overheads, tools and super?

I think that we need to be careful about this industry....the barriers to entry are low but to build a sustainable business is very tricky. The bigger names have even attempted to join forces and still failed (eg BASE).....its a really tricky business that on surface does not appear to be scalable unless you go MASSIVE (eg cobra) and relocate. The old traditional models seem to be back in favour from what I have seen but I would also say that I am just an observer of the surfboard making industry not a participant.

ted, not many making that dough on the goldie since the gfc. i keep hearing of full tradies working for $25/hr which is rubbish when factor in all the costs mentioned in this post plus if your a chippie you have to have every ubeaut power tool gizmo for every job. most guy would be carting around twenty grand of gear plus stuff another $10,000m plus at home that needs upgrading all the time to be competitive labour wise.

how the hell does $25/hr pay for the insurances, liabilities, lic's, super etc plus get all that gear.

ask how much your mechanic charges per hr. bet its $80 to $85 per hr

honestly it must cost a days wages at least weekly just to work for yourself.

its been pretty sad for 3 years now

pity is you guys have two options to combat it brother .... 1. cashies (yeah I know what ya thunking) and 2. Undercut & do as many jobs as is humanly possible to perform
The days of the good old Aussie Tradie are hard times now - but geez there doesn't seem to be much help coming from governments either

Sorry the delay in responding CMC but I normally put myself to bed by 8:30 ....I would love to have been there for that discussion....you made a very good point re the price of a FW. I guess it comes down to customers perception of what they are buying - perceived quality etc. it's amazing how many Hayden's I see around these days and they are priced nice n high as well. So maybe it's a combination of things from Taj to Nev to the materials used....maybe many people are just sick of pu boards and are looking for the extra durability of a compsand board, not to mention their lightness or improved floatations characteristics or maybe just their shapes appeal. It has always seemed to me that the surfboard industry has been fairly unresponsive to change n technology for a variety of reasons and I am happy to embrace new ideas and technology for improvement - like I do in all other parts of my life. I think that there are a lot of other people who feel the same. The old school shapers continue to pump out the same bits of equipment n the only thing they can offer is experience as a differentiating component. This restricts what they can sell a board for. It would also be interesting to investigate the changing demographics of the average surfer now compared to 20 years ago - one would imagine they are a lot wealthier.....

You have to take your hat off to Bob Mct , he has hopped into bed with the popout people and used them to promote his Brand .ie he still as kooks like me coming from far and wide to buy a custom at a premium price Good point about about the wealth of the average surfer now Ted , I would say the market has changed a lot in the last 20 yrs . With having semi retired I have to admit that looking at Popout brands just from board life is more attractive as the slush fund runs down .

I believe that Bob is owned by someone else these days TB and its not Mac

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laceys lane said...

ted, not many making that dough on the goldie since the gfc. i keep hearing of full tradies working for $25/hr which is rubbish when factor in all the costs mentioned in this post plus if your a chippie you have to have every ubeaut power tool gizmo for every job. most guy would be carting around twenty grand of gear plus stuff another $10,000m plus at home that needs upgrading all the time to be competitive labour wise.

how the hell does $25/hr pay for the insurances, liabilities, lic's, super etc plus get all that gear.

ask how much your mechanic charges per hr. bet its $80 to $85 per hr

honestly it must cost a days wages at least weekly just to work for yourself.

its been pretty sad for 3 years now

Yes I had heard that the tradies on the Goldie had been doing it tough. From the ones I know down this way they seem to think they are the poor cousins of the Sydney tradies.....although to be fair they seem to be doing better than your lot. Lets hope things pick up for you all one day soon. You make a good point about the mechanics of the world....no one worries about the $85 an hour as you can see all the capital equipment in the shed when you take your car in - not too mention most people just need there car back and running asap.

When these types of topics come up I often refer back to when I played a lot of golf.

Keep in mind all golf equipment is made in the same countries these popouts are.

You can buy a driver for $99 or one for $1000,add the other clubs, bag, tees,balls,shoes and all the other stuff you need.Then you pay green frees or membership frees.Thousands of dollars for the good gear.

I reckon surfing is cheap,so what $1600 for a top quality board custom made any shape colour fin set up you want,sorry lads its cheap compared to many other sports/hobbies.

And don't get me started on the lack of government support for Australian manufactures I've ranted about this before.No wonder unemployment is high and little future for the youth of today,Australia is a sell out and buy it back country,I'll stop now before the rant.

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chrispychru said...
^^^^yes and laws that allow to people to **** you up and let people be exploited. there are going to be some ****s who will regret screwing me....**** this ****[}:)]

Short and sweet rant mate,good morning Smile its Friday

please delete my rant mac

Take it easy buddy

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Ted the Kiwi said...
I believe that Bob is owned by someone else these days TB and its not Mac

I did know that they do a great job of using the great man I'm sure he's cool with it

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62mac said...

chrispychru said...
^^^^yes and laws that allow to people to **** you up and let people be exploited. there are going to be some ****s who will regret screwing me....**** this ****[}:)]

Short and sweet rant mate,good morning Smile its Friday

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62mac said...
When these types of topics come up I often refer back to when I played a lot of golf.

Keep in mind all golf equipment is made in the same countries these popouts are.

You can buy a driver for $99 or one for $1000,add the other clubs, bag, tees,balls,shoes and all the other stuff you need.Then you pay green frees or membership frees.Thousands of dollars for the good gear.

I reckon surfing is cheap,so what $1600 for a top quality board custom made any shape colour fin set up you want,sorry lads its cheap compared to many other sports/hobbies.

Nice one Mac...I'm going to remeber that rant for my next submission to minister for finance

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Tux said...

62mac said...
When these types of topics come up I often refer back to when I played a lot of golf.

Keep in mind all golf equipment is made in the same countries these popouts are.

You can buy a driver for $99 or one for $1000,add the other clubs, bag, tees,balls,shoes and all the other stuff you need.Then you pay green frees or membership frees.Thousands of dollars for the good gear.

I reckon surfing is cheap,so what $1600 for a top quality board custom made any shape colour fin set up you want,sorry lads its cheap compared to many other sports/hobbies.

Nice one Mac...I'm going to remeber that rant for my next submission to minister for finance

I think the big MacT is on the Board of McTav directors hahahaaaaaaaaaa

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Ted the Kiwi said...
Sorry the delay in responding CMC but I normally put myself to bed by 8:30 ....I would love to have been there for that discussion....you made a very good point re the price of a FW. I guess it comes down to customers perception of what they are buying - perceived quality etc. it's amazing how many Hayden's I see around these days and they are priced nice n high as well. So maybe it's a combination of things from Taj to Nev to the materials used....maybe many people are just sick of pu boards and are looking for the extra durability of a compsand board, not to mention their lightness or improved floatations characteristics or maybe just their shapes appeal. It has always seemed to me that the surfboard industry has been fairly unresponsive to change n technology for a variety of reasons and I am happy to embrace new ideas and technology for improvement - like I do in all other parts of my life. I think that there are a lot of other people who feel the same. The old school shapers continue to pump out the same bits of equipment n the only thing they can offer is experience as a differentiating component. This restricts what they can sell a board for. It would also be interesting to investigate the changing demographics of the average surfer now compared to 20 years ago - one would imagine they are a lot wealthier.....

Nail hit on head. Nothing more for me to say here.

Only that this was my point. Expensive boards have sold far more than cheap ones. This is what makes many manufacturers upset as they know it means they have to change or be better with service, marketing etc which as you said most are very reluctant to do. Scared almost.

For the record, this discussion probably excludes traditional longboards.

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CMC said...

Ted the Kiwi said...
Sorry the delay in responding CMC but I normally put myself to bed by 8:30 ....I would love to have been there for that discussion....you made a very good point re the price of a FW. I guess it comes down to customers perception of what they are buying - perceived quality etc. it's amazing how many Hayden's I see around these days and they are priced nice n high as well. So maybe it's a combination of things from Taj to Nev to the materials used....maybe many people are just sick of pu boards and are looking for the extra durability of a compsand board, not to mention their lightness or improved floatations characteristics or maybe just their shapes appeal. It has always seemed to me that the surfboard industry has been fairly unresponsive to change n technology for a variety of reasons and I am happy to embrace new ideas and technology for improvement - like I do in all other parts of my life. I think that there are a lot of other people who feel the same. The old school shapers continue to pump out the same bits of equipment n the only thing they can offer is experience as a differentiating component. This restricts what they can sell a board for. It would also be interesting to investigate the changing demographics of the average surfer now compared to 20 years ago - one would imagine they are a lot wealthier.....

Nail hit on head. Nothing more for me to say here.

Only that this was my point. Expensive boards have sold far more than cheap ones. This is what makes many manufacturers upset as they know it means they have to change or be better with service, marketing etc which as you said most are very reluctant to do. Scared almost.

For the record, this discussion probably excludes traditional longboards.

that sounds like a number crunchers point of view CMC...look at these so called "expensive brand" manufacturers and their turnover is massive...has to be to pay for all the admin costs, paid surfers, and advertising costs, and of course all this has to be allmost high fashion to make the average punter want to buy the product...these guys are backed by big money...and they are global...this mindset,trend ,evolution...call it what you like...will drive the small guys out of contention...just like coles woolies and bunnings....the small guys cant compete...I know what your thinking!..".ah but they are still getting high prices"...and they are indeed...but its an "all bases loaded syndrome" for us small guys, the top end is covered...and the bottom end entry level as well...all coming out of asia...so from what I can see...its not a matter of changing or giving better service and I dont think I am scared....it just...is what it is...the game is f#@ked...as Don Burford said to me not that long ago " there are too many boards being made by too many people" throw china into the mix and there is not a living in it....and Ted...if all I can offer is "experience as a differentiating component" well I think that is an unassailable credential.

^^^nail on the head goddard

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arkgee said...

CMC said...

Ted the Kiwi said...
Sorry the delay in responding CMC but I normally put myself to bed by 8:30 ....I would love to have been there for that discussion....you made a very good point re the price of a FW. I guess it comes down to customers perception of what they are buying - perceived quality etc. it's amazing how many Hayden's I see around these days and they are priced nice n high as well. So maybe it's a combination of things from Taj to Nev to the materials used....maybe many people are just sick of pu boards and are looking for the extra durability of a compsand board, not to mention their lightness or improved floatations characteristics or maybe just their shapes appeal. It has always seemed to me that the surfboard industry has been fairly unresponsive to change n technology for a variety of reasons and I am happy to embrace new ideas and technology for improvement - like I do in all other parts of my life. I think that there are a lot of other people who feel the same. The old school shapers continue to pump out the same bits of equipment n the only thing they can offer is experience as a differentiating component. This restricts what they can sell a board for. It would also be interesting to investigate the changing demographics of the average surfer now compared to 20 years ago - one would imagine they are a lot wealthier.....

Nail hit on head. Nothing more for me to say here.

Only that this was my point. Expensive boards have sold far more than cheap ones. This is what makes many manufacturers upset as they know it means they have to change or be better with service, marketing etc which as you said most are very reluctant to do. Scared almost.

For the record, this discussion probably excludes traditional longboards.

that sounds like a number crunchers point of view CMC...look at these so called "expensive brand" manufacturers and their turnover is massive...has to be to pay for all the admin costs, paid surfers, and advertising costs, and of course all this has to be allmost high fashion to make the average punter want to buy the product...these guys are backed by big money...and they are global...this mindset,trend ,evolution...call it what you like...will drive the small guys out of contention...just like coles woolies and bunnings....the small guys cant compete...I know what your thinking!..".ah but they are still getting high prices"...and they are indeed...but its an "all bases loaded syndrome" for us small guys, the top end is covered...and the bottom end entry level as well...all coming out of asia...so from what I can see...its not a matter of changing or giving better service and I dont think I am scared....it just...is what it is...the game is f#@ked...as Don Burford said to me not that long ago " there are too many boards being made by too many people" throw china into the mix and there is not a living in it....and Ted...if all I can offer is "experience as a differentiating component" well I think that is an unassailable credential.

you are the man RG well said champion buy Oz and it stays in Oz

you want to buy some furniture pup

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62mac said...
you want to buy some furniture pup

he sure does,i just found a pic off pup...rolling in it

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chrispychru said...

62mac said...
you want to buy some furniture pup

he sure does,i just found a pic off pup...rolling in it

haaaaaaaa

@McTEEEEE ..... I will sell bloody heaps of your furniture & beds if you utilise my pimpage a la extraordinaire talents full-time in the near future my dear young buffed up gun packing mate farking heaps

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arkgee said...

CMC said...

Ted the Kiwi said...
Sorry the delay in responding CMC but I normally put myself to bed by 8:30 ....I would love to have been there for that discussion....you made a very good point re the price of a FW. I guess it comes down to customers perception of what they are buying - perceived quality etc. it's amazing how many Hayden's I see around these days and they are priced nice n high as well. So maybe it's a combination of things from Taj to Nev to the materials used....maybe many people are just sick of pu boards and are looking for the extra durability of a compsand board, not to mention their lightness or improved floatations characteristics or maybe just their shapes appeal. It has always seemed to me that the surfboard industry has been fairly unresponsive to change n technology for a variety of reasons and I am happy to embrace new ideas and technology for improvement - like I do in all other parts of my life. I think that there are a lot of other people who feel the same. The old school shapers continue to pump out the same bits of equipment n the only thing they can offer is experience as a differentiating component. This restricts what they can sell a board for. It would also be interesting to investigate the changing demographics of the average surfer now compared to 20 years ago - one would imagine they are a lot wealthier.....

Nail hit on head. Nothing more for me to say here.

Only that this was my point. Expensive boards have sold far more than cheap ones. This is what makes many manufacturers upset as they know it means they have to change or be better with service, marketing etc which as you said most are very reluctant to do. Scared almost.

For the record, this discussion probably excludes traditional longboards.

that sounds like a number crunchers point of view CMC...look at these so called "expensive brand" manufacturers and their turnover is massive...has to be to pay for all the admin costs, paid surfers, and advertising costs, and of course all this has to be allmost high fashion to make the average punter want to buy the product...these guys are backed by big money...and they are global...this mindset,trend ,evolution...call it what you like...will drive the small guys out of contention...just like coles woolies and bunnings....the small guys cant compete...I know what your thinking!..".ah but they are still getting high prices"...and they are indeed...but its an "all bases loaded syndrome" for us small guys, the top end is covered...and the bottom end entry level as well...all coming out of asia...so from what I can see...its not a matter of changing or giving better service and I dont think I am scared....it just...is what it is...the game is f#@ked...as Don Burford said to me not that long ago " there are too many boards being made by too many people" throw china into the mix and there is not a living in it....and Ted...if all I can offer is "experience as a differentiating component" well I think that is an unassailable credential.

You know Rod, I have spent my life worshipping surfboard guys. As a 10 year old grom I used to cut decals, clean shaping bays, fix dings and wetrub most days after school on the way home. I was lucky enough to have to ride my BMX past 5 or 6 factories. Surfers werent my heroes, surfboard builders were. I loved the smell of styrene, joints, porno mags and smelly dogs.

I knew it was wanted to do for work by 12 years old. At 15 I was offered an apprenticeship in one of the factories. My parents had other ideas.

So I went to Uni, done my degree and every part of study relating to surfboards in some way and then started in the industry at ground level on the shop floor pretty much straight after. Been there ever since.

My point is, yes, it's a number crunching point of view. Unless you're making enough money to survive making surfboards the way I see it you're not making surfboards any more. No point making the exact same board as the guy up the road for $50 or $100 less. No money, no business, no industry....

For what it's worth you certainly do not fit into the reluctant to evolve category.

As we were watching Steve shape Vanders new weapon today Steve and I were talking board build threads and he said he was all over Goddards thread as we all were,the one thing among many things we agreed on was this guy knows his sh1t the other stand out was the quality.

^^^^in english this time please

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chrispychru said...
^^^^in english this time please

sorry one beer gone to my head

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62mac said...

chrispychru said...
^^^^in english this time please

sorry one beer gone to my head

fark i came so close to understanding it...now it makes complete sense

On my third warming up head off to Skilled to watch my team get hammered.

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62mac said...
On my third warming up head off to Skilled to watch my team get hammered.

32-10

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arkgee said...
.and Ted...if all I can offer is "experience as a differentiating component" well I think that is an unassailable credential.

Good to have you back arkgee - I have missed your contributions of late.

My comments were very generalist in nature and were in no way aimed at you. I continue to lust after your boards every time I see them, on yr website and when Pup pimps them! If I had not started to make my own boards now (which gives me a bigger insight into how good your boards are) I would have a few of yours. Infact I have bid for a few on ebay in recent times - I really want to get hold of of one of your free range eggs.You are a master craftsman. Your experience is by no way not appreciated by myself. Looking at the boards you shape they continue to evolve and combined with your experience it looks like you are on a good path. I think that you are correct that experience is an unassailable credential. I also think that there is room for technological evolvement within the industry. Look what has happened since Clarke removed himself. In my earlier post I referred to the point that there is significant risk at the moment as the older more experienced crew are winding back and the whilst the barriers to entry for a home builder like myself are small the barriers upon entry from a business perspective as a small player in the market are very real and very hard. So who replace people like yourself when you decide you have had enough of mowing foam? What will happen to your knowledge and skills? Will they passed on?

The consolidation of industry is not just happening in your world but across most of the market place we trade in every day from servo stations to local liquor outlets to corner stores. Surfing has essentially been a cottage industry and in recent times things are a changing (relatively speaking). I like how people like Josh Dowling and Katana (both on SB now) are finding a space for themselves in the marketplace. I am hoping that many more will follow. I do not want to end up in a world that is essentially shaped by Coles and Woolies. We all have a responsibility to ensure this does not happen by choosing to buy at least some of our equipment from the traditional builder if it suits our purpose so they can survive. I buy my petrol from the local owner - he is normally 5 cents more expensive sometimes 15 (depending on the voucher deals from coles) from the shell / coles outlet down the road. But I am happy to fill up there twice a week. He is also a great mechanic and has been good to us so we are happy to pay the extra $3 a time. But at the end of the day most people will vote with their back pocket as they normally do and as a result people that only have a limited ability to differentiate their product will find it hard. This is not new - its just globalisation and we need to adapt to continue to live in this world. i have had to do it with my own work - every day I am dealing with the cheaper labour force of India - people who can write code at a 1/4 of the cost we do.....it makes life bloody tough. We have had to differentiate what we do to ensure we can survive and still be competitive. As a result it has also opened up several new markets for us so its not been all bad....in fact quiet the opposite.

I have to agree with everything you have said there Ted...and speaking of hitting nails on the head both you and CMC have.... for me at least...belted it fair and square.... will all the knowledge and skills be passed on? I'm afraid I cant see it.....and CMC..."the smell of styrene,joints, and smelly dogs" ....what other industry can claim that....Ive allways thought myself extremely lucky to have been a part of this...since 1970...I have been living the "morning of the earth" lifestyle....so it is hard for me to swallow the chinese import pill....surfers of today have changed heaps...they now can sneak in with the rest of the humans...(and they will always "vote with the back pocket")...mid seventies, you could spot a surfer a mile off....and yes Ted "consolidation of industry" is happening all over....I'm about to take a different tack...tuesday morning I will sit for my driver authority course...Im going to drive the school bus with some luck and treat surfboard building as a hobby....make less...make em better...even have my motto ready...GODDARD SURFBOARDS...PROVEN SURFDESIGNS FOR THE GIFTED FEW ...and I'm going to let this chinese rat race wash right over my head.