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Piros said..
forget about the handle position.

Yup. I guess the handle position is key if you paddle in the straps, but if you are not, then it is not really relevant anymore and you are free to focus on handling the rocking in a better way.

Anyways, this is why I love foiling, the excitement to have to develop new techniques. And this even without tweaking a lot my gear (compared to a guy here experimenting with Canard foils and other weird setups). I suspect there may be a magic combo merging the tilt movement used for ShortSUP and for pomping the foil, but I may be wrong... we'll see.

Ah, and the smaller board is really nice also to carry on the beach, especially with some wind, and also in the water, much less leash traction in wipeouts. Plus getting in and out of the water with some shorebreak is also easier to handle.

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colas said..
First session yesterday on my new 6'10"x30"x125l "Simmons" board

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I have SUPed this same 6'10" board for some time now, and for me it is one of the stablest shape I used.

And after 35 sessions on my 8'9" foiled board, I felt I was quite OK foiling (nearly never missing a takeoff, controlling my flying height, pumping to keep & accelerate flying, connecting waves), but of course with still a lot of things to learn (how to pump for the takeoff, pumping on flat water, smoothly threading bottom rollers...)

But: mixing the two: 6'10" + foil... I didn't thought it would be so hard!
Not in the air, of course. 1' less at the nose and the tail, plus 1.5kg less total makes the board incredibly easier to lift out of the water and control in flight.
And actually, on waves steep enough to take off normally on a SUP, it was as easy as with my 8'9". But things were ... interesting ... otherwise. Weak waves were very hard to manage (granted the chop from 15knts onshore winds did not help)

I guess that on very short SUP boards, you develop a "3D balance" where you are moving your board around in all directions both to keep your balance and move around while paddling and takeoff phases (things that do not happen in prone surfing, the body in the water dampen things). But these movements, especially the rocking, will interfere badly with the foil dynamics, and vice-versa the foil forces will interfere greatly with a short board that will move more in response to foil forces. Trying to pump the foil would result in the board sinking vertical by the tail or nose, titanic style. Pumping in the air is simpler: you only have to manage the foil. Pumping on takeoff seems quite harder, as you have to manage both the board and the foil, and they react differently.

After 30mn I began to get a bit the hang of it, but there will be work. For now, on weak waves, I move a lot forward on the board (front foot near the front edge of the pad) to "choke" the foil and take off using the body movements I am used to for taking off with Short SUPs, and move to the straps once taking off is under way. And on steeper waves, I just take off feet ins straps as usual.

But this is not ideal, I guess now I have to learn to move the board on takeoff on weak waves so that the movements are beneficial both with the board and the foil. Back to the beginner stage!

And to people wanting to start SUP foiling: just like SUPing, do not start with too short a board! Granted my 6'10" is much nimbler in the air, but the technique is the same on my 8'9", only with slower reactions. So you can learn all the flying techniques as well on a longer board, no worries.

PS: I guess in understand now why foil-specific short SUP boards seem so thick. It may be to dampen the reactions of the board and let the foil do the talking...

new setup looks cool and very different, will be interesting to see were it goes, would be very interesting to test try this setup against others. I have both kai and maliko foils on order so looking forward to trying them. Im also just working on a new test rig for my own wings I have been playing with. Its so cool trying all this new stuff and working things out in such a new sport and developing new ideas at such a early stage I just want to fast forward 5 years to see were it goes!

www.theinertia.com/surf/heres-what-happens-when-a-foil-board-hits-you-in-the-face/

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GWatto said..
www.theinertia.com/surf/heres-what-happens-when-a-foil-board-hits-you-in-the-face/

[1] That's VERY old news... You are just clickbaiting/trolling. It has been reported and commented one year ago on this forum. See www.seabreeze.com.au/forums/Stand-Up-Paddle/SUP/Hydro-foil-warning-by-Jamie-Mitchell

[2] This was with a Kite foil! These are not at all the same as the SUP and surf foils, these kite foils are ultra-sharp, and do not work at the speeds needed for SUP/Surfing. SUP/Surf foils are much blunter - safer - than a standard surfboard fin.

[3] the guy started on his own with reading no advice on how to learn.

Had a good session yesterday 3ft , found some waves easy too get flying , others very hard, it was offshore wind not super heavy, but I don't think offshore winds and foiling mix that well, when I went out in onshore junk, heaps easier too fly. I'm finding I still need a decent wave to really get flying, maybe it's my weight or I need the bigger blue go foil.

How heavy are you Teatree and the vol board you ride .

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teatrea said..
Had a good session yesterday 3ft , found some waves easy too get flying , others very hard, it was offshore wind not super heavy, but I don't think offshore winds and foiling mix that well, when I went out in onshore junk, heaps easier too fly. I'm finding I still need a decent wave to really get flying, maybe it's my weight or I need the bigger blue go foil.

On the offshore winds, it works quite well... if you do not have too much board hanging in front of the foil (pointed nose, shorter board or centered foil position work well), otherwise managing the upwards wind on the face (+ relative wind) on the drop can be quite tricky. But with offshore winds, you must be careful that it does not makes the wave too hollow, look for crumbling fat faces. Onshore winds are definitively easier.

Taking off on very weak waves is actually quite harder, it will become easier with a better technique and less parasitic body movements. Keeping on flying on a weak wave once airborne is not as hard, however.

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roachy said..
How heavy are you Teatree and the vol board you ride .

I'm around 86kg , the board 9,3 x 29 volume, not sure. Any way I'm new to the Caper and learning every time I go out, what I have found, with my board anyway, some times I need to move my back foot behind the mast, and front foot no so far forward, on more gutless waves, on waves that have more juice I can have my foot over or in front t of the mast and a much wider stance.

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colas said..

GWatto said..
www.theinertia.com/surf/heres-what-happens-when-a-foil-board-hits-you-in-the-face/

[1] That's VERY old news... You are just clickbaiting/trolling. It has been reported and commented one year ago on this forum. See www.seabreeze.com.au/forums/Stand-Up-Paddle/SUP/Hydro-foil-warning-by-Jamie-Mitchell

[2] This was with a Kite foil! These are not at all the same as the SUP and surf foils, these kite foils are ultra-sharp, and do not work at the speeds needed for SUP/Surfing. SUP/Surf foils are much blunter - safer - than a standard surfboard fin.

[3] the guy started on his own with reading no advice on how to learn.

Nah Colas neither clickbaiting or trolling, just adding a link which appeared on Google News today.

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GWatto said..
Nah Colas neither clickbaiting or trolling, just adding a link which appeared on Google News today.

I seriously doubt that Google news would show today "news" older than a year... "Saturday July 16, 2016". Even the FB posts it refers to has disappeared...

I just went to google news and searched for the title of the article... it doesnt even find it !!!
You must learn to troll better, young grasshopper :-)

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colas said..

GWatto said..
Nah Colas neither clickbaiting or trolling, just adding a link which appeared on Google News today.

I seriously doubt that Google news would show today "news" older than a year... "Saturday July 16, 2016". Even the FB posts it refers to has disappeared...

I just went to google news and searched for the title of the article... it doesnt even find it !!!
You must learn to troll better, young grasshopper :-)

It was in the "Suggested for you" section f@&$ed if I now why Google thought so, it just did.
Seriously why are you so sensitive all I did was post something I thought was relevant, it's not like I was commenting on your use of straps or mast position, lighten up FFS.
P.S re your comment when this was posted, no helmet would have helped the poor bugger

And..... Let's move on.....

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colas said..
First session yesterday on my new 6'10"x30"x125l "Simmons" board

Second session: I suspected that my problem was the huge row effect on a finless 6'10", so I added:
- 2 nubsters in the rear boxes on the board
- a rudder made with a small FCS trailer, screwed on a steel plate, fixed via the stabilizer screws

And... everything was perfect! no missed waves anymore, easy take offs front foot in the strap. The 6'10" is able to take off on very weak waves with the push of the foil, that's quite impressive. And once airborne, you can move around the 6'10" like a feather...

I will try next time without the foil rudder (but with still the nubsters on the board), to see exactly what the rudder brings. From this test, I would say that there are advantages and disadvantages to the rudder: The foil is stabler yaw-wise, which is quite useful on liftoff, if you are still paddling, and at low speed close to stalling the foil doesn't try to "escape" on the side, which makes pumping simpler. Also high speed curves feel safer. But the foil feels stiffer, especially in the top turns (but bottoms turns seems easier), and it is harder to make the micro adjustments to the trajectory to exploit the waves. It reminds me surfing with a single fin, you must prepare more your turns, and bank well into the turns.

So, I would say that if you are not yet at ease with the row effect on your SUP foil, do not hesitate to add some rear fin(s) to the board, if possible not deep but with a long chord. And I will advise to use a foil rudder for learning at least, but I think a rudder should be removable, I suspect you do not want one after the learning phase. (or at least you want to be able to change the size)

Colas your rear stabiliser is already above the fuselage giving you the fin effect . Before you go wrecking a perfectly good foil please try dropping in another Tuttle box further back , this will help heaps with the yaw. You shouldn't need board or foil mounted fins to keep the board straight , no one else uses them and you are far from a beginner.

The other thing I noticed is your flat front wing. This is now pretty old school as it gives no stability in flight. The norm now is to turn down the wing tips for more control and helps depress the impact on touch downs. Plus gives more low speed lift.

This is a pic of the Go Foil at top plus a proto we have playing with in the middle and the Naish Thrust at the bottom. North , Slingshot & Takuma do the same. All work really well with turned down front wing tips. This makes a huge difference in flight for smooth control in sweeping turns.

The flat front wing is more suited to kiting not sup or surf foil. The flatter wing just falls off the turn, making it really twitchy . The curved front wing also helps paddling pushing the water straight back giving you boost and avoiding the yaw (or row as you like to call it.) Just sharing what we have tested and what works.
Every foil I named above I have ridden.

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Piros said..
The other thing I noticed is your flat front wing. This is now pretty old school as it gives no stability in flight.

Piros, I guess you didn't get the memo, curved foils are so 2017 :-)
Did you see Naish foil designer Neils Rosenblad explaining how he has seen the light for 2018: flat wings are the bee knees and rudders are the cat's pajamas:
www.seabreeze.com.au/forums/Stand-Up-Paddle/SUP/Naish-SUP-2018-is-live-?page=1#2134066
Even Go Foils seem to go to more and more flat wings on their latest designs. (compare the Maliko with the Kai)

Seriously, it is upturned wing tips that give more stability, that's basic aircraft knowledge. Downturned wings decrease stability (the lift forces converge from a point below the foil, as if the foil was balanced on a point below) and are used for instance on planes with the wings on top of the fuselage, to balance the stability added by the fuselage weight being below the wings. But too much stability can be bad, as it will prevent turning (the foil will want to "track" in turns). So there is no magic recipe, but simply up/down turned wings are a part of the total compromises that make a foil design work... but at a huge drag cost. Most foil designers (look at the kitefoil world) now realize that it is better to tweak the stability by other means than curving the wings, you can get the same benefits with a total lower drag, and a saner ventilation when breaching..

Other points:

- "no one else uses them" well, no one else SUPs a 6'10" foil board at 100kg either. And no one else was using a coiled wait leash. And no one else was using C-Drives. And no one else used Star fins on SUPs. And no one else used paddles their height. And no one else is putting twin fins on their SUP. And no one else... Heck, if you do not experiment on such a young sport, where is the fun?(I do not say I pioneered all the above. But for each of these advances, one guy/gal at some point was experimenting something that no one else did)

- "moving the foil back" is not what reduces the yaw. It is moving the foil mast farther apart from your feet. This can be achieved by moving the foil back, but it is much less trouble to just move your feet forwards on takeoff. If you read my report, this is of course what I did in my first session to tame the row effect, but for me it is not an ideal solution, as when you have experienced taking off with the feet already in foiling position, you realize the time lost in the start of the ride if you paddle with your feet too forward of the mast, time that can be very useful to build speed and prepare turns. So my goal is to paddle with the feet in foiling position, which brings significant advantages.

- "wrecking a perfectly good foil" - the beauty of the Gong foil setup is that, on top of adjusting the stabilizer angle easily, I am able to just screw in a rudder, just like you would screw in a FCS 1 fin. I am now making other rudders to try different rakes and sizes, I think the stiffness in the turns may be actually a good thing, if we can develop a technique to use it to gain leverage in turns.... we will see. It may work or prove a bad idea, but how to know without testing... even if "no one else is doing it" ?

On a side note, I was happy to see another foiler in my area, an extremely good SUPer (+kiter + shaper). Alas, with the foil back he has to paddle in a different position than the one he should foil in, resulting in lots of frustration as he got undone each time trying to move his feet. I hope he will not quit foiling, but he faces a looooong learning curve if he doesn't get boat-towed sessions.

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colas said..
advantages and disadvantages to the rudder: [...] But the foil feels stiffer, especially in the top turns (but bottoms turns seems easier), and it is harder to make the micro adjustments to the trajectory to exploit the waves.

Here is a good example of the kind of turns that are not possible with the rudder, at 0:42 in the video below (rider: Antoine Civel), kind of "releasing the fins" in a SUP/Surf roller:

have to admit moving the hole thing even a inch further back makes a huge difference in the yaw/row. why not have a twin box put in around you Tuttle and use a Tuttle adapter to experiment even further.

If you put a little extra volume in the tail of your boards you will find you will not need to move your feet when transitioning between paddle and flight.

Colas,
If you move yours back and ditch the straps for and experiment, I'll push mine forward to your specs and run straps for a lengthy trial??
Anyone else want in on this deal of a lifetime??

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coxy31 said..
Colas,
If you move yours back and ditch the straps for and experiment, I'll push mine forward to your specs and run straps for a lengthy trial??
Anyone else want in on this deal of a lifetime??

I - and others I know - tried without straps, and there is no comparison. You can commit a lot more into turns with straps, plus it feels a lot safer at speed, you can focus on your trajectories instead of always getting ready to bailout.

Try to look at videos taken of the foiling pros (Kai, Zane, ...) by onlookers (passing-by tourists) who do not thus feel like they need to edit out the falls... The brutality and suddenness of their strapless falls is frightening, even for somebody like Kai with 9 years of experience.

Actually, I enjoyed a test going strapless for gentle steady rolling waves, for a relaxed ride. A bit like Windsurfing strapless, you definitely feel freer. But in Hossegor where waves can still peak suddenly, having the straps to face the unexpected is really important to me.

Also, I trust the judgement of Patrice Guenole more than anybody else (just realize he reached the conclusions of the Naish foil designer 2 years before him), and he tested a wide variety of setups and gear. Altough he does not use straps when surf foiling, and has his mast well back, for SUPing he finds having the mast backwards is a bit moronic.Instead wasting time exploring issues he already has exhausted, I'd rather try new things, like foil rudders, board nubsters,...

scaling of your photo it looks like the mast is at 22-23" to center on your 6'10?

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charlieuk said..
scaling of your photo it looks like the mast is at 22-23" to center on your 6'10?

It follows the standard Gong template as can be found on
www.gong-galaxy.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=56&t=8981

This means that on this specific board shape, the rear of the mast box is at 50cm from the tail (~ 19.5"). But it could be different on another 6'10" 125l with a different shape... and a thus a different handle position.

Using the handle is great because it naturally gives you the center of flotation of the board. E.g, if I had a board with more volume on the tail to be able to paddle farther back, the handle would be farther back to account for the larger - thus heavier - materials aft, moving the mast position automatically back. I have seen a brand (cant remember which one) trying to give you a distance from the tail, whose instructions were quite complex in trying to take into account the tail shape... but the placement of the handle already take into account all these factors!

Handles are generally set on the center of mass which depends on how the board has been built taking into account the weight of fin boxes, tail pads leash plugs ect ect, the center of volume or flotation is however in a different location, you can see this if you have any of the cad drawings of your boards as it will show the point. If you were just going off the foam blank with a constant density the two would equal I believe, however when you start adding fin boxes, tail pad, inserts ect the two change and the handle moves towards the tail.

edit and if you are talking about the center of flotation of the board sitting on the water on its own then this is odiously going to change when you bolt the foil on

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charlieuk said..
Handles are generally set on the center of mass [...] the center of volume or flotation is however in a different location

Of course, but they are surprizingly close, close enough for this use.
Plus the template is based on the handle position, which means what is important is the variation of the difference (delta) between center of mass / center of flotation across shapes, which is even smaller than the absolute variation of these centers: If the template is determined empirically on one board it will take into account this "delta" for this shape. And the delta for another shape, although different will not be far off.

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colas said..

charlieuk said..
Handles are generally set on the center of mass [...] the center of volume or flotation is however in a different location

Of course, but they are surprizingly close, close enough for this use.
Plus the template is based on the handle position, which means what is important is the variation of the difference (delta) between center of mass / center of flotation across shapes, which is even smaller than the absolute variation of these centers: If the template is determined empirically on one board it will take into account this "delta" for this shape. And the delta for another shape, although different will not be far off.

on my current board you are looking at aprox 7" difference between center of mass and center of volume.

Yup, but that's not the point. We are looking at the handle as a reference point to where we put our feet to paddle the board (since the goal is to put the foil in a way that is relevant to the paddling position). What happens is that we basically, in my experience, put our feet at about the same place (at least in the range of the strap inserts bars) relative to the handle, on most board used for SUP foiling (e.g. excluding race boards).

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colas said..
Yup, but that's not the point. We are looking at the handle as a reference point to where we put our feet to paddle the board (since the goal is to put the foil in a way that is relevant to the paddling position). What happens is that we basically, in my experience, put our feet at about the same place (at least in the range of the strap inserts bars) relative to the handle, on most board used for SUP foiling (e.g. excluding race boards).

Colas your theory about handle positions and paddling positions on big boards may work (cause you can be standing 1 foot in the wrong spot and the volume of the board compensates),once you start running small boards 10mm wrong in your paddle stance and she's a sinking ship..
To have the theory of setting up your stance and eventually foil position based on centre of mass handle position seems totally stupid and very narrow minded to me..
Myself and others have found even moving the foil for and aft even 10mm can make huge differences..
For a brand and its posi to recommend a paddle and foil possition relevant to handle placement really speaks for itself..

Colas said:- Even Go Foils seem to go to more and more flat wings on their latest designs. (compare the Maliko with the Kai)

Yep that's right and that's why in 4 weeks the new Maliko will be released with a curved wing similar to the Kai , their reason for doing this is to give more turning ability imagine that a company that does R&D listening to it's riders and continually improving it's product.

Hey Colas what is your weight?

"once you start running small boards 10mm wrong in your paddle stance" - you know what? I have been on 6'-something SUP boards for more than 6 years (and even used a 5'9"). This is why I can compare these kind of assertions with an extensive, actual, personal experience...

"foil position based on centre of mass handle position seems totally stupid" - when you fly, taking into account the position of the center of mass if far from stupid. Ask any aircraft expert. While paddling, it is the center of flotation, while airborne, the center of mass (the swing weight), and they are quite close together, as the similar (across boards) position of your feet relative to the handle shows.

"Colas what is your weight?" - 100kg

"their reason for doing this is to give more turning ability" - that's what I described: downturning the wings makes it more instable, so it engages more easily into turns. Just like for SUP/Surf-ing, a stable board is harder to turn. Compromises, playing with many factors... On the Gong foil for instance, you change the stabilizer to add instability (the default one is the stablest, there are 3 other sizes with different foils & geometry)

Small waves today, with a bit of chop, high tide, a Sunday during the French school vacations... dozens of cars in the parking lot when I am nearly alone usually...

Time to dust off the foil!

After not having foiled for 7 months, I was bit apprehensive. But it seems I did not forget anything related to flying, I was flying, turning, pumping just as well as 7 months ago. What I totally lost was the subtle rocking movement on takeoff that helps the foil gain traction and lift the board out of the water, I was totally out of sync! I came back a little at the end of the session, but I lost a great deal for taking off on weak waves. Taking off on waves steep enough for a regular SUPsurf takeoff was OK, however.

I am glad I stored the board with pool noodles in the straps: After 7 months they were not flattened at all!