Just waiting to see who will have the last word. Enjoyed the information so far so please keep going.

I agree with you JB, you don't need straps...I've been foiling for nearly a month now & learning in unfriendly foil waves...ie reef breaks with too much power & speed but I knew it would pay off.....Boxhead was epic today on the foil & I'm happily pumping away & linking my turns with the swells...

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warwickl said..
Just waiting to see who will have the last word. Enjoyed the information so far so please keep going.

I don't think there is yet a definitive answer. What I thinks is coming out of the discussion so far is different "paths". So whatever option you choose, be consistent:

- If you choose not to use straps, spend some time towed behind a boat, otherwise if you choose the straps way, prefer time paddling by yourself

- If you use a foil mount on rails, start with the mast back, otherwise, start with the feet more forward

- If you want to maximize paddling speed and power on a SUP, use a centered position and a pulled in board outline, if you prefer to have the same body position as on a regular SUP, use an aft position on a wide-tailed board

etc, etc... avoid mixing incompatible options.

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Jimmy Lewis Boards said..
I agree with you JB, you don't need straps...I've been foiling for nearly a month now & learning in unfriendly foil waves...ie reef breaks with too much power & speed but I knew it would pay off.....Boxhead was epic today on the foil & I'm happily pumping away & linking my turns with the swells...

Stoked to see you lost those straps Rob, hanging to get out Box. Maybe this week, I have some dealers coming over to learn, so we'll be doing some towing and small wave riding (hopefully some wind foiling also). If we head to Box, might touch base ;)

Speak soon,

JB

Hi JB, never used the straps from day 1 (as per your advice I think) & haven't felt like I needed them.... Off to Hawaii today so hopefully lots of foiling in between racing
Get my other new toy tomorrow....17 feet of fun....

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warwickl said..
Just waiting to see who will have the last word. Enjoyed the information so far so please keep going.

Hey Colas I fitted some stick on straps to my board last night. I've been off the water for the past 5 months due to a shoulder reconstruction. I blew heaps of waves on Sunday because my feet were missed placed , so I got out some old stick on straps which were Velcro and you could adjust the angle and placement to test your theory on feet placement.

First wave I went over the front just scratching out of the straps and went Fark that . So I undid the straps and put them inside my wetsuit . The stick on plates were still there and next wave my feet went straight on the plate and I was sailing away and never fell for the rest of the session. So I have to say there is merit on a pad for feet position so you can feel different texture under your feet for placement.

This is a pic of the straps removed and I will leave it like that for feet reference .

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Piros said..
First wave I went over the front just scratching out of the straps

You mean, the velcro was not strong enough to keep the straps in place?

Anyways, this shows one of the benefits of the straps: keeping your feet in the proper place.

No I did not like being locked in a strap , I couldn't dive away as quick as free feet almost got the board in the head . I then removed straps . But yes strap plates are a good marker .

Session #7 and starting to turn.

No videos yet, but still progressing.

I am now able to pump gently to increase speed, and even catch the wave before when waves are getting close together.
Pumping is not exactly the "Huntington hop", you need to send your legs forwards on going down: you are not as much pushing down on the foil than launching forward the underlying plane, a bit like you do to launch a paper plane. These little pumps from time to time help greatly, for instance to maximize speed to go around falling sections. They allow for a wider range of trajectories.

I am glad Patrice Guenole told me to get a stable board: As I tend to only use the foil when conditions are not good for regular SUPing, I mostly foil in choppy and windy conditions, and a stable board that paddles well is a boon. Also, this means foiling extends my water time, I am now out on the water on days I would not be bothered with a regular SUP, and this is great!
I still like to SUP a lot, though. It feels simpler, you don't need to anticipate things as much, and you are free of the constant risk avoidance mental stress of foiling (especially saving your ankles if you use straps, and not falling on the foil if you don't). Also I do not risk taking the foil if I know I will have to get out the water in a shorebreak. Since I got my foil, in the 10 weeks I was able to go into the water, I had 25 foiling sessions and 19 SUPing ones.

I also take the foil when the good peaks are crowded, to have fun alone on outside banks. I often attract SUPers coming to me thinking there are good waves... but they get disappointed fast!

Trying also to tighten my turns. The G and acceleration in turns are incredible, it doesn't show because there is no water thrown around, but it feels insane. The hardest part is to keep thinking on controlling the height, especially if you move faster than the wave, to nosedive to follow the wave face. Straps help a lot for this, you have much more control of the board both laterally and longitudinally.

I tried pumping on the flats to help the takeoff, but it is too hard for me: if I pump on takeoff, the board continues to move around at the start of flying and I get ejected. Using the straps to rock your body fore and aft seems to work well however, combined with strong and fast paddle strokes, I can take off on really weak waves without getting off balance after takeoff.

So, there is definitely a "click" when things get in place and you begin to control your flight, but there is still a long progression after that. Foiling technique seems very rich, we are just at the beginning of it.

On the centered position for SUP foiling, I stumbled today on this pic of Kody Kerbox that shows what I mean:


- Take the center of gravity of the board, which is where the handle is.
- Align the center of lift vertically under it: basically at 1/4th of the front wing from the front, the thickest part of the wing

This way, the board is well balanced, its center of gravity just on the center of lift. The rider has only to have his feet so that the handle is in the middle of them (and thus his center of gravity above the center of the board and the center of lift), and you get a fully balanced system that can nimbly rotate around its center(s). And this is important for SUPing, as your feet are also on each side of this center (the handle) while paddling, so if you use straps, they can be at the ideal position for paddling and flying, and if you don't, it will minimize how much you will have to move around between paddling and flying. I guess this is less important in surf foiling, as you do not have to bother with the paddling position.

Please note, I do not want to start a flame war, I just want to explain what I mean by a centered position and that it is irrelevant to the actual distance to the tail of the board. It is based on the handle position.

Colas- I'm heading over to france tomorrow, just 10 days in the van along the west coast, have you heard of any spots that are well suited to foils ie anything other than the normal beach breaks?

Some of the worlds best surfers. Foils look pretty far back to me.





JB

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JB said..
Some of the worlds best surfers. Foils look pretty far back to me.

If you had read me: "this is important for SUPing [...] I guess this is less important in surf foiling, as you do not have to bother with the paddling position"...

Again, to stress the message: The centered position is relevant only to SUP paddling, because

[1] it allows the same feet position for paddling and flying, no more awkward dancing on takeoff, plus it is mandatory for straps. All things that do not apply to surf foiling

[2] balancing a board on its center is important on the big boards (in volume and weight) that are SUPs, and avoiding a long overhang in front that will catch the apparent wind. This is not relevant for micro boards as used in surf foiling, and in your picture.

And even the advocate of the centered position, Gong, does not put its foil centered on its Surf & Kite foiling boards, e.g. Xavier Leroy uses a centered SUP position:



But not for surf foiling:





And to prove that a good foiler can have his feet anywhere: Here are the first SUP foiling session of a pro kitefoiler: He even has his feet on each rail!!! What a good foiler can do and what you should do to learn safely are not always related. And foilers now even sit on their foils boards in flight...

(note that this was last summer, with a sharp low area kite foil with a big mast, in the midst of one of the most popular Seignosse break... not of all what pros do is to be followed...)

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charlieuk said..
Colas- I'm heading over to france tomorrow, just 10 days in the van along the west coast, have you heard of any spots that are well suited to foils ie anything other than the normal beach breaks?

I only know here the St Jean de Luz bay, a sheltered bay with non-breaking waves rolling for a long time, away from the surf breaks.

I only go to beach breaks, you need to find beaches with outside banks, and play with the tides. But the type of breaks are very different in each part of the west coast. Where are you going?

If you are near La Baule, you may drop at the Gong depot to see if you can share a session with the foil crew there (they are open to the public from 16h to 18h) or have a chat. And of course, contact me if you go down in Hossegor/Seignosse.

Colas get a gun and shoot me in the head . I can't take this mid mount mast point anymore. I asked you to show some vision on a mid mount Sup Foil to prove it works..... and this is best you can put up. Have you ever tried a board with the mast back? To test your theory I even a had a custom board built and bumped the mast mount from 21' to 23.5" yes the board still works but there is no advantage. Why you keep pumping this forward mount is beyond me. FFS try it further back and then comment , it's simply so much easier and that's why the rest of the world is doing it like that.

First video is your's mid mount , second is Keahi at 21" just let the vision tell the story......



Please tell me where Keahi has got it wrong

You replied yourself: "yes the board still works but there is no advantage"
You just discovered that the mast position is irrelevant once airborne. This is what I said!
(And if you had tried it with some strong offshore wind, you would have seen the advantage of not having a big chuck of board far forward, but I digress)

Now, if you actually read what I write again and again, the advantage is when PADDLING WITH A PADDLE ON A SUP. This way you do not have to move your feet around and risk misplacing your front foot (which I think you agree is key). You have the same feet placement paddling and flying, which is a huge advantage when learning. Plus it helps using straps, which is also an advantage.

So [1] no disadvantage when flying, [2] huge advantage when paddling... the choice is quite obvious.

PS: Xavier SUP video was on his 3rd ever time on a foil... thus it shows the advantage when learning.

An example of the "awkward dance": look at all the movements (at 0:07) Robert does with his feet when transitioning from paddling to flying... when beginning each movement is an opportunity for disaster, only with his hundreds of hours of experience he is able to manage this dance... My point is why suffer and take risks (misplacing feet ==> board rolls and you fall on the foil) where there is a safer and easier method?



I do not know why you are so aggressive. I understand you offer a commercial service with lessons, but I don't, I have no foiling school in OZ competing with you trying to lure away your customers. I present in this thread a method that works for me (who doesn't own a boat) and many others, you have your own method which is different (maybe being far aft is better for towed sessions?) and I guess successful too.

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colas said..

charlieuk said..
Colas- I'm heading over to france tomorrow, just 10 days in the van along the west coast, have you heard of any spots that are well suited to foils ie anything other than the normal beach breaks?

I only know here the St Jean de Luz bay, a sheltered bay with non-breaking waves rolling for a long time, away from the surf breaks.

I only go to beach breaks, you need to find beaches with outside banks, and play with the tides. But the type of breaks are very different in each part of the west coast. Where are you going?

If you are near La Baule, you may drop at the Gong depot to see if you can share a session with the foil crew there (they are open to the public from 16h to 18h) or have a chat. And of course, contact me if you go down in Hossegor/Seignosse.

No real fixed plans we normally head towards lacanau but may be going down to Biarritz area so will see what the conditions are like down st jean de Luz

many thanks

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charlieuk said..
No real fixed plans we normally head towards lacanau but may be going down to Biarritz area so will see what the conditions are like down st jean de Luz

St Jean de Luz needs some swell to work (at least 2 meters at the buoys), and is sheltered from the winds. Basically when Lacanau will be horrible (windy closeouts), it is worth the trip going to St Jean.

The surfing spot is "Sainte Barbe" close to the north part of the bay (too hollow for foiling), and there is a huge foiling playground inside of it where the wave spills in the center of the bay. Some pics at: foil-magazine.com/session-hiver-stand-up-paddle-hydro-foil-ludovic-dulou/

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colas said..

charlieuk said..
No real fixed plans we normally head towards lacanau but may be going down to Biarritz area so will see what the conditions are like down st jean de Luz

St Jean de Luz needs some swell to work (at least 2 meters at the buoys), and is sheltered from the winds. Basically when Lacanau will be horrible (windy closeouts), it is worth the trip going to St Jean.

The surfing spot is "Sainte Barbe" close to the north part of the bay (too hollow for foiling), and there is a huge foiling playground inside of it where the wave spills in the center of the bay. Some pics at: http://foil-magazine.com/session-hiver-stand-up-paddle-hydro-foil-ludovic-dulou/

Cheers fingers crossed we find something good to foil in the next 10 days :)

I mount my SUP foil at 19" and do not change my stance between paddling and flight, I feel it works very well. Especially when you get a little juiced up.

JB

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JB said..
I mount my SUP foil at 19" and do not change my stance between paddling and flight, I feel it works very well. Especially when you get a little juiced up.

JB

That's exactly right JB and the point for some reason Colas can't understand. On bigger sucker waves up need to be further back on the board. All that excess speed creates heaps of lift , if your mast mount is too far forward you can't stop the lift. Plus all that excess tail keeps tapping down on pumping.

Colas im not sponsored by anyone I don't sell anything to do with foils or boards , I don't charge to teach , I'm just sharing the foil stoke with a bunch of mates. Why I get so frustrated is you only pimp one brand and one set up and preach it as gospel. All my advice comes from riding many different brands and set ups with many different riders . We have taught heaps of people to foil safely and quickly. We are now riding bigger waves at really high speeds and really tightening the turning arc. From all this the mast points are now moving even further back to just in front of where we have been teaching people to learn.

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ellemenophee said..

Stylin Travis.

looks like a nice foiling wave.

JB

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Windgenuity said..

ellemenophee said..

Stylin Travis.

looks like a nice foiling wave.

JB

Cheers JB.

When you heading down to SA again???

Nice Trav and great catching up and swapping boards.The Takuma goes good.

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Piros said..
Nice Trav and great catching up and swapping boards.

Hi Piros

I was great fun catching up for a foil. I have to come back up again for another play!

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murf said..

Windgenuity said..

ellemenophee said..

Stylin Travis.

looks like a nice foiling wave.

JB

Cheers JB.

When you heading down to SA again???

Hopefully soon, think I want to come rock that break with you. Looks sick.

Only a foiler knows the feeling,

JB

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Piros said..
Please tell me where Keahi has got it wrong

Kaehi does nothing wrong at his level, of course.

What I say is that beginners will have an easier experience if they do not try to imitate him regarding foil position.
Just like SUPing beginners should not try to imitate pros on all points, e.g. paddling in surf stance is mandatory to SUP in contests, but is catastrophic if a beginner tries it.

Specifically, Kahei paddles into the wave with the front foot in the midst of the white pad area: (and one could argue that if he had his foiling stance there, his front foot will be even further forward)


But he foils afterwards always with the front foot on the forward edge of the grey area. Let's say 6" farther back.

My point is that by moving the mast forwards by 6" (and of course his foiling position by 6" forwards, too!) it will change nothing in the air, but thus he will not need to move the front foot between paddling and foiling, which is nothing for him (he evens moves his feet while foiling), but will make a difference when learning to foil, especially if you have never foiled before. (and also on late take offs, taking off in the foam, etc...)

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colas said..

charlieuk said..
No real fixed plans we normally head towards lacanau but may be going down to Biarritz area so will see what the conditions are like down st jean de Luz

St Jean de Luz needs some swell to work (at least 2 meters at the buoys), and is sheltered from the winds. Basically when Lacanau will be horrible (windy closeouts), it is worth the trip going to St Jean.

The surfing spot is "Sainte Barbe" close to the north part of the bay (too hollow for foiling), and there is a huge foiling playground inside of it where the wave spills in the center of the bay. Some pics at: http://foil-magazine.com/session-hiver-stand-up-paddle-hydro-foil-ludovic-dulou/

Dropped into the gong shop today no foils to look at unfortunately and not much swell up that way so we headed down the coast to Le Sables d Olonne. Few bumps here but from past experiences maybe not a great wave to foil ether