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jondrums said..
yes, I think you're right Juzzy - HA200 would be more on par with the Kujira 1210.
HA170 .....1096 sq cm
HA200 .....1290 sq cm

Dommo - Thank you so much for all the detail. Reaffirms what I've found - the 1210 is pretty much my perfect everyday foil. I mentioned the pitch stability in the kujira thread - it definitely isn't just the length of the fuse - has to do with the lift profile versus angle of attack of the front wing. I think it is all related also to the ability of the kujira to run high lift / low speed and stall out in a very smooth way.

If you put the 170 on top of the 1210 the 1210it's difficult to see exactly how much the overlap is as they are both so different in shape but TBH you can't take the measurement of one dimension and use that as the sole basis for comparison - there's so many design aspects in play and each of them has a major effect.
Whatever the difference in measurements, these 2 foils are definitely comparable in terms of their range of use, and my personal feelings are that the 1210 beats the 170 in nearly every aspect of performance - it's just so super efficient, definitely the best low end and so close to the same top end it's hard to distinguish any clear winner. As the 170 has a higher aspect ratio (and is over 100cm2 smaller) than the 1210 you'd expect its top end to be better than the 1210, but i'm not sure that it is, at least not enough to make a noticeable difference - I've been doing a LOT of winging with the 1210 over the last week- first few days 20-25 knots, then a few at 10-15 knots. I know this is my personal opinion but I think the 1210 has the edge in every way except for maybe how quick you can roll from rail to rail - the 170's roll is so easy to initiate it's almost like it needs a different style of riding from carving through a turn normally. The kujira isn't like that, it does everything smoothly. Also, I can definitely feel the drag from the 170 through the water but the drag from the 1210 is hardly noticeable.
I completely agree with you that the 1210 is the perfect everyday foil - it definitely has the biggest range of any comparable foil. Having said that I acknowledge that this is very subjective and I can see why some people would prefer the 170 over the 1210. Both awesome foils!

Now onto the smaller sizes - I've not used the Lift HA 120, but the Kujira 980 is the mutts nuts!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I'm sure everyone has already seen this tail adapter for Lift foils but for those who have not...

www.facebook.com/groups/1835972486480618/permalink/4185887271489116/?sale_post_id=4185887271489116&sfnsn=mo

I've been using a green grabber for the last couple month. Great aftermarket option.

www.instagram.com/p/CO4CLs8L5-t/?utm_source=ig_web_copy_link

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toppleover said..
I'm sure everyone has already seen this tail adapter for Lift foils but for those who have not...

www.facebook.com/groups/1835972486480618/permalink/4185887271489116/?sale_post_id=4185887271489116&sfnsn=mo

I ordered one of Julian, He was good to deal with, received it sooner then promised, perfect fit and really well made.

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bjhjames said..

Dommo49 said..

Piros said..
1210 - 935mm wide , 170- 940mm wide (1097cm2) So physical characteristics pretty close . The 1210 is way stiffer you do notice the wing flex in the 170 , both have incredible glide and pump but the 1210 has a lower stall speed. Both death sharp and both very fast. Ding wise Id pick the 1210 an amazingly good downwind wing , surf wise I'd go the 170 but the 1210 is still a very fun prone wing. The best prone wing Lift now has is the new 120 it's insane and don't know how but there are 85kg guys ripping on it , amazing carry for it's size.

Thanks Piros - good to know. I'm interested to hear if the 85kg guys you know who are ripping on the Lift HA 120 are ripping only while on waves, or if they are also able to pump back out to connect multiple waves. I know a few people who say its the most amazing foil to surf, wing and tow-in, but they say if you're much over 70kg then you can pretty much forget about pumping it back out. I know Jackfromtown makes it look easy, but as good as he is that kid is probably less than half the body weight of most adults - and that's a huge advantage. By all accounts the stall speed of the 120 is super high, so keeping its speed above that point is going to be difficult for all but the lightest and best? Good conditions would also be a help I imagine. Happy to be proven wrong if you think differently.

I am 75 kg, 60y +. Been on the HA120 for a month now, all sorts of conditions.
Average at best pump technique and average fitness.
HA 120 pump is pretty easy, multiple waves consistently for the first time. Previous foil was Armstrong 1250 and I find the HA120 quicker and easier to pump. I don't know what the story is either with "low stall speed" comments, its happy in 1' weak waves and speeds of mid teens. Maybe if you were 85 + in tiny waves, but I have not found it a problem and once up you can pump back up to speed.

Pump is much better then the Lift v2 150, turns well, but they are carve turns rather then flick which you can do on the V2 150.

Downsides ... Its really doesn't like turbulence, gets bumpy and nervous running through gutters after a set has washed through.

So clean water or take the first wave of a set .... so much fun ... I am loving it

Have a go on one .. you will see.

Bought mine yesterday and arrives this week !

Average speed at Cbin last week was over 30km/h without pumping.. gotta love that bottom turn speed up onto the wall.
sweep was a killer !

I've been on the Takuma Kujira 980 and 1210 for around 8 months. I got to demo the Lift 120, 28" standard mast with 34 glide a few weeks ago, I liked it and bought the setup. I only prone foil.

I'm 5'7" and weigh 140 lb (63.5kg). I had heard that the 120 was tricky to ride, but it seemed just as intuitive as the Kujiras.

The 120 turns just as well as the 980 and for my light weight, it seems to pump just as well as the 1210! The 120 also feels like it has more gradual lift on takeoff, so taking off on HH waves have been easier on the 120 compared to the 980.

The K980 and Lift 120 seem to have very similar turning radius, but I prefer the Lift 120 for turns because I'm more likely to breach on a hard cutback with the K980.

For pumping out the back, my longest pump on the K980 has been 80yd (73m). With both the Lift 120 and K1210, my longest pumps out the back were 120 yd (110m). I seem to be tapping out due to lack of cardio on my pumps out the back. For me, stall speed for both the Lift 120 and K1210 is just below 7.8 mph (12.5 kph). Stall speed for the K980 is slightly higher.

Before, when the surf was below CH, I would ride the 1210 because it was easier to pump and more reliable for getting double dips. Once surf was CH+, I would switch to the 980 because the 1210 had too much lift on takeoff and I would end up getting launched. Now the Lift 120 covers all the conditions I want to foil and I'm not questioning myself if I pulled out the best wing for the conditions.

I ride an ONO Dish 4'4", 36L board. With either Kujira, I had the mast all the way in the back of the tracks with dual baseplate shims; no tail shims. With the Kujiras, when I tried moving the mast forward to improve pumping, I was more likely to breach during a cutback.

On the same board, with the Lift 120, the mast is 1" (2.5 cm) from the front of the tracks (no shims).

So far, the only negative for the Lift 120 is that the wing hums. Neither Kujira wing hums. I might have to do some sanding on the Lift to get rid of the humming. I don't want to attract any sharks with the humming.

Here's a video of me riding the Lift 120. At the end, I felt like I was about to stall and put too much back foot pressure and breached; I should've been able to keep going.

Try the 25 tail the 120 is my go to for winging...haven't tried prone or sup yet ..no waves here so far .. I also have the 32 and quit using it ,it feels too draggy compared to the 25 nabe some sessions to get used to it but it will award you for sure especially at your weight!!!

Try the 25 tail the 120 is my go to for winging...haven't tried prone or sup yet ..no waves here so far .. I also have the 32 and quit using it ,it feels too draggy compared to the 25 nabe some sessions to get used to it but it will award you for sure especially at your weight!!!

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toppleover said..
I'm sure everyone has already seen this tail adapter for Lift foils but for those who have not...

www.facebook.com/groups/1835972486480618/permalink/4185887271489116/?sale_post_id=4185887271489116&sfnsn=mo

Hi, I don't have Facebook does this guy have a website or contact so I can order? Cheers

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timmcg89 said..

toppleover said..
I'm sure everyone has already seen this tail adapter for Lift foils but for those who have not...

www.facebook.com/groups/1835972486480618/permalink/4185887271489116/?sale_post_id=4185887271489116&sfnsn=mo

Hi, I don't have Facebook does this guy have a website or contact so I can order? Cheers

Pm me and I'll give you his number

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Dpap said..
Try the 25 tail the 120 is my go to for winging...haven't tried prone or sup yet ..no waves here so far .. I also have the 32 and quit using it ,it feels too draggy compared to the 25 nabe some sessions to get used to it but it will award you for sure especially at your weight!!!

I did end up getting the 25 tail and the Lift tail adapter with 13.5" KDTail for my 120.

As expected the 25 tail was much looser than the 34 Glide tail. I also didn't seem to lose any pump with the 25 tail.

I got the short Lift tail adapter and set the tail position to match the length of the stock 25 tail. The 13.5" KDTail was even looser than the stock 25 tail. However, my pump consistency dropped off with the KDtail, so I have gone back to using the stock 25 tail. I was pulling off tips out cutbacks with both the 25 tail and KDTail.

I currently only get maybe one double dip per foil session. When my pumping improves to where I'm consistently getting doubles and triples every session, I'll give the KDTail another try.

I've been foiling with Adam Bennetts @misterbennetts on insta . He puts a small packer/wedge under the rear of the mast plate on the board on his 120 with KD tail & shorter fuse, swears by so worth a try .

www.instagram.com/reel/CXNBhsZAn9J/?utm_source=ig_web_copy_link

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Piros said..
I've been foiling with Adam Bennetts @misterbennetts on insta . He puts a small packer/wedge under the rear of the mast plate on the board on his 120 with KD tail & shorter fuse, swears by so worth a try .

www.instagram.com/reel/CXNBhsZAn9J/?utm_source=ig_web_copy_link

Hey Mate,
iv heard the JS board he uses has tail rocker? Is this why he's packing it with a mast shim to counteract that?

Yes, I have the 4'4" JS Black Eagle. It has tail rocker. It takes me two foilmount shims stacked to make the mast angle feel 90 degree's to the deck. I didn't like it at all before the shims. I was riding like I was doing a wheelie everywhere.

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Hdip said..
Yes, I have the 4'4" JS Black Eagle. It has tail rocker. It takes me two foilmount shims stacked to make the mast angle feel 90 degree's to the deck. I didn't like it at all before the shims. I was riding like I was doing a wheelie everywhere.

Thank you! I have been trying to make sense of this.

I listen to the Bennet podcast, where he says he likes lots of front pressure and with the HA120 he shims the back of the mast plate.

So I tried it and found it horrible, just kept feeling like I was nose diving and constantly had to lift it back up, even when just foiling along.

I have a flat rocker board, so if the JS board has tail rocker, shimming the rear of the mast is just bringing it back to square where the foil was designed to work?

I have played a lot with tails as well. With the lift tail adapter and KD 12" I found it draggy compared to the stock 25. I mainly got the adapter to get the v2 - 150 feeling better to me. Have been playing with shims, (and mast shims which made it worse) still have not any combination with a "that's it" type result.

For the HA120 whilst most of the time have been using the 25 tail, recently I have started using the 32 again. Don't seem to lose much in glide and pump, and particularly when the surf is a bit bigger, I find it less frantic than how the 25 can feel at high speed for my skill set.

So where im at, 170 / 25, 120 / 32, 150 & no idea! I have the old surf 34 tail coming soon as it seems a lot of people are using that on the 150.

Any insights on tail shims on the adapter / KD tail appreciated as anything I have tried is going backwards.

Cheers

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bjhjames said..

Hdip said..
Yes, I have the 4'4" JS Black Eagle. It has tail rocker. It takes me two foilmount shims stacked to make the mast angle feel 90 degree's to the deck. I didn't like it at all before the shims. I was riding like I was doing a wheelie everywhere.

Thank you! I have been trying to make sense of this.

I listen to the Bennet podcast, where he says he likes lots of front pressure and with the HA120 he shims the back of the mast plate.

So I tried it and found it horrible, just kept feeling like I was nose diving and constantly had to lift it back up, even when just foiling along.

I have a flat rocker board, so if the JS board has tail rocker, shimming the rear of the mast is just bringing it back to square where the foil was designed to work?

I have played a lot with tails as well. With the lift tail adapter and KD 12" I found it draggy compared to the stock 25. I mainly got the adapter to get the v2 - 150 feeling better to me. Have been playing with shims, (and mast shims which made it worse) still have not any combination with a "that's it" type result.

For the HA120 whilst most of the time have been using the 25 tail, recently I have started using the 32 again. Don't seem to lose much in glide and pump, and particularly when the surf is a bit bigger, I find it less frantic than how the 25 can feel at high speed for my skill set.

So where im at, 170 / 25, 120 / 32, 150 & no idea! I have the old surf 34 tail coming soon as it seems a lot of people are using that on the 150.

Any insights on tail shims on the adapter / KD tail appreciated as anything I have tried is going backwards.

Cheers

I know everyone's different (abilities/weight etc) but i'm about to jump ship from axis bsc 890 to lift 120. Getting mixed messages about whether to make the initial investment and get the adapter/Kane tail which seems the be all the rage or just stick with the current tails and start there? Just listened to the latest progression project and apparently new HA sizes coming out too, so now considering just waiting!? Foiling gear is never simple is it..

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timmcg89 said..

bjhjames said..

Hdip said..
Yes, I have the 4'4" JS Black Eagle. It has tail rocker. It takes me two foilmount shims stacked to make the mast angle feel 90 degree's to the deck. I didn't like it at all before the shims. I was riding like I was doing a wheelie everywhere.

Thank you! I have been trying to make sense of this.

I listen to the Bennet podcast, where he says he likes lots of front pressure and with the HA120 he shims the back of the mast plate.

So I tried it and found it horrible, just kept feeling like I was nose diving and constantly had to lift it back up, even when just foiling along.

I have a flat rocker board, so if the JS board has tail rocker, shimming the rear of the mast is just bringing it back to square where the foil was designed to work?

I have played a lot with tails as well. With the lift tail adapter and KD 12" I found it draggy compared to the stock 25. I mainly got the adapter to get the v2 - 150 feeling better to me. Have been playing with shims, (and mast shims which made it worse) still have not any combination with a "that's it" type result.

For the HA120 whilst most of the time have been using the 25 tail, recently I have started using the 32 again. Don't seem to lose much in glide and pump, and particularly when the surf is a bit bigger, I find it less frantic than how the 25 can feel at high speed for my skill set.

So where im at, 170 / 25, 120 / 32, 150 & no idea! I have the old surf 34 tail coming soon as it seems a lot of people are using that on the 150.

Any insights on tail shims on the adapter / KD tail appreciated as anything I have tried is going backwards.

Cheers

I know everyone's different (abilities/weight etc) but i'm about to jump ship from axis bsc 890 to lift 120. Getting mixed messages about whether to make the initial investment and get the adapter/Kane tail which seems the be all the rage or just stick with the current tails and start there? Just listened to the latest progression project and apparently new HA sizes coming out too, so now considering just waiting!? Foiling gear is never simple is it..

Just my 2 cents, and yep everyone is diff. I got the adapter because I found whilst the V2 150 does turn and feel a fractionally "surfier" then the 120, the pump was a lot less efficient. So I have been playing with adapters and tails to try and make the 150 pump better. Not really had any success with that.

When I have put them on the 120 to see what happens, what ever combination of tails, shims ... none felt anywhere near as good as the stock 25 and 34 tails.

So my recommendation is get one of the stock tails, they are really good, then if you get bored, buy the adapter and some more tails to play with to see what you can discover.

As far as HA sizes, if you are under approx 85kg, the 120 covers a lot of wave sizes from a foot to shoulder high swell. They have a lot of range. A HA150 size would be like the ha170 and have too much lift when it gets bigger. The new HA90 coming, its got to be hard work in anything under waist high. I have the 100 surf, and you can't go out in front of the wave without it bogging down and have to stay on the face. The HA 90 would most likely be a bit better, but still an issue in small waves.

Yep tooo many options.

32/34 tails are perfectly good. They're really solid and I love riding them!
current "meta" setup based on the feedback I've recieved on the 120 is 32 mast, long fuse adapter and boomerang with 0-0.5 shim depending on rider and board. I have also heard great things about the kujira 158 and 178 tails!

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Hdip said..
Yes, I have the 4'4" JS Black Eagle. It has tail rocker. It takes me two foilmount shims stacked to make the mast angle feel 90 degree's to the deck. I didn't like it at all before the shims. I was riding like I was doing a wheelie everywhere.

Same with fanatic boards, my shim was 7mm to make that board work properly

Lift 120, with 25 tail, and 4'4" KT Drifter F (34L), the mast is all the way at the front (both 28" and 32" mast), no baseplate shims. The KT has zero tail rocker; it has a flat section where the tracks are located. I never tried the KT/Lift 120 with baseplate shims.

Lift 120, with 25 tail, and 4'8" JS Black Eagle (31L), the mast is all the way at the front (both 28" and 32" mast), 2x baseplate shims. JS without baseplate shims and mast all the way at the front, I didn't get enough lift on takeoff and I kept pearling on the takeoff. When I did make a wave, I wasn't getting any drive out of my pumps. Once I installed the baseplate shims, the JS rode like the KT without shims.

I think I prefer the 4'8" JS just because it's easier to paddle and more durable than the 4'4" KT. I've been mostly using the KT with the Lift 120. I'll need a few more sessions with the JS to verify if that becomes my favorite board with the Lift 120.

I used the 2x Wizard Hat shims, which comes out to 7mm of shimming.

Who is winging on the 120 and/or 170 ha? What weight are you and how much wind do you need to get these going?

im 174-180 lbs on the 200ha and want a smaller more maneuverable wing for more fun in powered conditions. 120 feels like a big jump and 170 feels like a lot of overlap. I know there was rumor of a 150 ha (which would have been the right step for me) but lift has now confirmed that it ain't coming

Where did they confirm that? March is when the new wings should land in LA. Hold off a week and see.
go 120 over the 170 though.

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Hdip said..
Where did they confirm that? March is when the new wings should land in LA. Hold off a week and see.
go 120 over the 170 though.

"120 over the 170"

Yep. Not a huge difference in 200 to 170

I have been foiling the Unifoil Hyper 170 mostly with the KD 13.5" tail and i love it. mast is 75cm (30"). Recently i bought a Lift HA 120 with the 25 tail and the 32" mast. I ummed and arrred about the mast, should i choose the 28 or the 32. I was used to a 30 and when i first demoed the LIft i tried it with a 28" mast. I breached about 5-6 times and it frustrated me. That could be due to not being used to the new setup and having lift increase over speed, who knows? I breached and i rarely breach. So my thinking was, in getting the 28" Lift mast i am going slightly shorter than what i ride. Would i prefer to go slightly shorter or slightly longer. At the end of the day we are talking about 2" either way. (ask your partner if they would prefer 2" shorter or longer). I chose the 32".

I have had 2 long foil sessions with this setup, first time in knee to waist high waves and the second in chest to head high waves. Never breached once. Didnt notice any disadvantages in going slightly longer than my normal setup. I am sure as i get used to it i will push the boundaries more and more but for the moment it feels good.

I weigh 80kg and i had no trouble on the small waves. You do have to keep the speed through the pump out and if you lose speed it is hard to get it back before it stalls. the pump is a little different to my Hyper 170. with the Hyper its more of a tap, tap tap and the Lift i found i had to drive it more through the "sine curve". One distinct advantage is the speed, pumping out, you get there faster so technically, you pump less to go further. The glide is insane and the speed and turning is amazing. I found it nimble, possibly more nimble than my Hyper 170 and certainly faster. (1050 cm2 Vs 775 cm2). Speed wise on the smaller and the larger days, there was a distinct increase according to my GPS watch (Apple watch - Dawn patrol App). On my Hyper 170 i will regularly hit speeds ranging from 32-38 km/h, in the same conditions i was hitting 35-42km/h. that is on waves ranging from waist to chest/head high.

On the larger days the pump is easier to maintain as you have a greater exit speed and i found myself pumping out over 3-4 waves comfortably before selecting a wave to turn on. the speed is very addictive. The connection turn is solid, stable and fast.

So, after two sessions of about 2-3 hours each session, i really like it. The setup works, the slightly longer mast is fine and i will feel more "secure" with it in bigger waves or towing. The 25 tail is good, turns well, feels good in the turn and not unstable.

the only thing that is pissing me off is the hum!!! i know when i am hitting speeds above 36-38km/h because the hum is very distinct. Doesnt hum when i pump out but when i drop in to a steeper wave or trim along and the wave stands up and i accelerate, it hums like a mother. I lightly sanded the trailing edge (lower) of the rear and i dont know if it made much difference. I sanded again after the second session but i have not had a chance to try it again (tomorrow looks good). Then i saw the video below and it talked above sanding the rear upper trailing edge not the lower one (explanation made sense). so i sanded that tonight and will try tomorrow. Dont need to sand much, just a few passes to make it very smooth.

www.seabreeze.com.au/forums/Wing-Foiling/Wind-Wings/What-causes-foil-humming-?page=1

I ride an Amos Hyper Flyer 4'2". never felt the need to shim the mast, unlike the JS, it doesnt have a rocker. I think the rocker would piss me off. I dont want to have to adjust my gear to compensate for a manufacturing "issue".

So far, i am very happy with the setup, fast, pumps well, turns well and fast, did i say fast? yes its fast. To quote Ricky Bobby - "I wanna go fast"

hope this helps.

Just heard of a guy wingfoiling big waves. Hum was super loud. It was the mast. 3 hours of finish sanding the mast fixed it.

New Lift wings are live on their website. No surprises and more tweaks than new releases. 90 high aspect and a few new tail options. As I expected, no 150 ha.

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JonnieTyler said..
Lift 120, with 25 tail, and 4'4" KT Drifter F (34L), the mast is all the way at the front (both 28" and 32" mast), no baseplate shims. The KT has zero tail rocker; it has a flat section where the tracks are located. I never tried the KT/Lift 120 with baseplate shims.

Lift 120, with 25 tail, and 4'8" JS Black Eagle (31L), the mast is all the way at the front (both 28" and 32" mast), 2x baseplate shims. JS without baseplate shims and mast all the way at the front, I didn't get enough lift on takeoff and I kept pearling on the takeoff. When I did make a wave, I wasn't getting any drive out of my pumps. Once I installed the baseplate shims, the JS rode like the KT without shims.

I think I prefer the 4'8" JS just because it's easier to paddle and more durable than the 4'4" KT. I've been mostly using the KT with the Lift 120. I'll need a few more sessions with the JS to verify if that becomes my favorite board with the Lift 120.

I used the 2x Wizard Hat shims, which comes out to 7mm of shimming.

Asking for a mate.
Shimming the front or rear of the mast with the JS?

I Shimmed it with the thick part at the tail. It's to take the rocker out of the board.

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Hdip said..
I Shimmed it with the thick part at the tail. It's to take the rocker out of the board.

Thanks for the reply.
If you shim the rear bolts you accentuate the rocker in the back of the board? Shim the front and the nose lifts to make the foil sit in a more natural position?

No the opposite. With tail rocker in the board and no shim the mast is tilted back towards the tail. Which means the board will be nose high when riding.
If you shim it thick part in the rear. That tilts the mast forward and when riding the board is level.