I really enjoyed the interview with Dave. It is interesting to hear about the reasons behind moving downwind shapes in a new direction and his design process in general. I also personally enjoyed hearing him talk about how surfing longer boards well is actually harder. I am a lifetime prone shortboarder and I have always been amazed by people that can rip big boards.Lately, I have been trying to force myself to develop some skills on a bigger board which is coincidentally a 9ft Kalama. Now, of course, I realize that is a short board to Dave. Damn!
I sold my foil stuff a couple years ago because I didn't have the budget or the inclination to acquire tons of gear, but if anything were to move me to take it up again it would be a board like the barracuda. I like the notion of a foil board that has a wide variety of conditions that it can used in. I also have nothing but good things to say about my experience buying a board from Dave and Kalama performance.

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pohaku said..

PeterP said..
I'm not sure if I completely agree with Dave's assertion (just saying that makes me nervous). He says that the Barracuda design ALSO aids turning and pumping by giving more projection. No doubt the boards get you on foil easier than anything before it, and the narrowness certainly helps turning to some degree but overall my personal experience is that less of a board pumps better in all conditions and smaller board also turns better. Longer boards do not feel as loose and willing to turn is my personal experience.

I have an 8'2 x 20 110L Barracuda'esque design and I love it for the ease of catching bumps but I do feel I sacrifice some turning - it feels like I have to nurse it around rather than crank it around and although the pumping is much better than I had anticipated due to the boxes being far enough forward to give it a balanced feel, I can't say I've personally experienced the extra projection he speaks of.

I've winged it a bit as well and there the feeling is the same, great for getting on foil, but turning and manouvers are somewhat compromised, ie. more difficult. You can adjust to it, but when I go back winging shorter boards this just feels easier, less consequence of engaging part of board during turns.

But, great interview, covering a lot of bases.

That's because it's not a genuine barracuda? If you ride one of his then you'll know what we're talking about. If pumping around and banging white water is your thing or jumping when winging the. It's not for you. But everything else it is for sure.

Where I'm from we can only get CopyCuda's so, no - I've not had the opportunity to try the real thing. But the subtle differences in rails and rocker would not materially affect the claims being made. The Cudas have their place but to say they turn and pump better than shorter downwind boards just doesn't agree with my experience and if this was the case then I'm pretty sure Casey, KD, Spencers and the other downwind maestros would be on 8ft+ boards already.

8ft+ plus boards give you glide over 6ft boards and allow you to go much narrower for same stability. Combined with Daves genius V-tail you have the best launching weapon known to downwind and light wind winging - but that is where the benefits end. And this is not meant to denigrate the importance of that - if you can't get up, you are not foiling and then your pumping and turning sucks even more...

I love my 8ft+ CopyCuda and ride it almost every day flat, downwind, wing and waves and would love the opportunity to try a real one one day.

The boards are going to sell real quick,they are probably good or great shapes and 5.8kg for the "big" one (sic) sounds pretty light.Add DKalamas stellar reputation as a foilboard shaper and you have a winner.

But...
-2300$ for a board you do not know the dimensions?.LOL.
-Claiming that Barracudas turn great despite the lenght vs "copies" because of their genius design is so redolent of TV infommercial BS.
Once in the air pretty much only the inertias matter (as in smaller better).

Why are you doing this?.
Kalama has tons of cred, why waste it.

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PeterP said..

pohaku said..

PeterP said..
I'm not sure if I completely agree with Dave's assertion (just saying that makes me nervous). He says that the Barracuda design ALSO aids turning and pumping by giving more projection. No doubt the boards get you on foil easier than anything before it, and the narrowness certainly helps turning to some degree but overall my personal experience is that less of a board pumps better in all conditions and smaller board also turns better. Longer boards do not feel as loose and willing to turn is my personal experience.

I have an 8'2 x 20 110L Barracuda'esque design and I love it for the ease of catching bumps but I do feel I sacrifice some turning - it feels like I have to nurse it around rather than crank it around and although the pumping is much better than I had anticipated due to the boxes being far enough forward to give it a balanced feel, I can't say I've personally experienced the extra projection he speaks of.

I've winged it a bit as well and there the feeling is the same, great for getting on foil, but turning and manouvers are somewhat compromised, ie. more difficult. You can adjust to it, but when I go back winging shorter boards this just feels easier, less consequence of engaging part of board during turns.

But, great interview, covering a lot of bases.

That's because it's not a genuine barracuda? If you ride one of his then you'll know what we're talking about. If pumping around and banging white water is your thing or jumping when winging the. It's not for you. But everything else it is for sure.

Where I'm from we can only get CopyCuda's so, no - I've not had the opportunity to try the real thing. But the subtle differences in rails and rocker would not materially affect the claims being made. The Cudas have their place but to say they turn and pump better than shorter downwind boards just doesn't agree with my experience and if this was the case then I'm pretty sure Casey, KD, Spencers and the other downwind maestros would be on 8ft+ boards already.

8ft+ plus boards give you glide over 6ft boards and allow you to go much narrower for same stability. Combined with Daves genius V-tail you have the best launching weapon known to downwind and light wind winging - but that is where the benefits end. And this is not meant to denigrate the importance of that - if you can't get up, you are not foiling and then your pumping and turning sucks even more...

I love my 8ft+ CopyCuda and ride it almost every day flat, downwind, wing and waves and would love the opportunity to try a real one one day.

Where are you located?

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mcrt said..
The boards are going to sell real quick,they are probably good or great shapes and 5.8kg for the "big" one (sic) sounds pretty light.Add DKalamas stellar reputation as a foilboard shaper and you have a winner.

But...
-2300$ for a board you do not know the dimensions?.LOL.
-Claiming that Barracudas turn great despite the lenght vs "copies" because of their genius design is so redolent of TV infommercial BS.
Once in the air pretty much only the inertias matter (as in smaller better).

Why are you doing this?.
Kalama has tons of cred, why waste it.

Curious to understand if you have ridden a Barracuda or another brand of that style of design to support your opinion/ theory in a practical application of downwinding or wave riding?

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pohaku said..

Piros said..
Any 7-10's
Yeah do you want one

You know what Dylan I was and I'll pass as I don't just get this:-

pohaku said:- There's 3 sizes, you'll most likely be one of two of the sizes, the customer and I have a chat about what they want to achieve, ability etc then I let them know what one they'll be.

Once you pay your deposit you get more information.

I can't say Dave and I are long time friends but we do go way back , I just can't see him ever saying Once you pay your deposit you get more information.

The boards look absolutely amazing, look forward to when one comes down to my part of town to check it out

Deep breath
A bit of angst here. I will echo Piros the boards look amazing.
We may need to just wait until we try them before we decide. Love my E3 6 6 and 5 4 not sure I want a cuda as not a dw fan. But keen to try.

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Piros said..

pohaku said..

Piros said..
Any 7-10's
Yeah do you want one

You know what Dylan I was and I'll pass as I don't just get this:-

pohaku said:- There's 3 sizes, you'll most likely be one of two of the sizes, the customer and I have a chat about what they want to achieve, ability etc then I let them know what one they'll be.

Once you pay your deposit you get more information.

I can't say Dave and I are long time friends but we do go way back , I just can't see him ever saying Once you pay your deposit you get more information.

The boards look absolutely amazing, look forward to when one comes down to my part of town to check it out

I just don't get your comments and their motivation. You already have a copy from dc and may even be on your second.

if you were fair dinkum you would have just rang Dylan and got all the information you require.
At least we know what Dylan is selling and his motivation.

You could just consider it a pre order opportunity with Dave trying to keep the vultures back just a little while longer before a completely public release.

Never read and heard so much uninformed rubbish in the lead up to a product release as I have in the last 9 months regarding the barracuda. No wonder the details are still guarded.

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paul.j said..
Some people like chocolate cake and others like Banana cake the difference are the ingredients, no one is better than the other and in the big picture and the difference is personal opinion. No one has doubts that the long boards Dave has made work but to say everyone else's ingredients are wrong just because they are different is also just very small-minded as I am sure some out there might even be better!!

Totally agree, no disrespect for DK, is the boss, but there are a lot of good chocolate cakes, a lot a good cakes and a lot a good cooker in the world.

Not all longer boards are copy, those are just the evolution of DW foiling.

I like the way they look. Taking a while to get here to Oz, but fair play to Dylan for securing 30 DK boards for the Oz foil market in this first Cuda shipment. I don't envy any importer or shop right now trying to decide what gear to please people in this ever changing market of ideas, innovation and creation. Some people change their boards and foils more often than their bed sheets. An old fashioned phone call to Dylan gave me dimensions I wanted to know without any deposit or Non-Disclosure agreement. Looking forward testing how these boards perform on ripple waves and downwind coast runs to see if they live up to the hype. Here is a sick shot of Tomo riding the 8 foot Cuda. Happy foiling punters.

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Hank1 said..
Curious to understand if you have ridden a Barracuda or another brand of that style of design to support your opinion/ theory in a practical application of downwinding or wave riding?

Nope, never had the chance to ride a board in this shape.

Once you are up the foil only cares about mass & mass distribution (distance from pivot point).

With these being equal the shape does not matter in a turn without touchdowns, it can be a Kalama,a copy or shaped like a mermaid.

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I just don't get your comments and their motivation. You already have a copy from dc and may even be on your second.

if you were fair dinkum you would have just rang Dylan and got all the information you require.
At least we know what Dylan is selling and his motivation.

You could just consider it a pre order opportunity with Dave trying to keep the vultures back just a little while longer before a completely public release.

Never read and heard so much uninformed rubbish in the lead up to a product release as I have in the last 9 months regarding the barracuda. No wonder the details are still guarded.

Really don't know how to answer this. I was the first person ever to bring in a DK Sup foil board to Australia . These stupid comments that DC or anyone else has copied a DK Barrucada without ever seeing one is just mental HTF do you copy something if you've never seen it. Dave even says it in his podcast , so pull your head in and relax. If you really think saying a Barracuda is 7-6 x 20 x 115 liters is giving away secrets, you seriously have lost the plot. If I want to buy a board off Dave I'll do it directly as I have done in the past and get exactly what I want . This mystery lotto draw through Dylan , just seems very strange , that's my point but if that's how it rolls to get one in Aus so be it.... again the new DK Barracuda boards look absolutely amazing and I'm all about sharing the stoke. I'm not trying to try and stir the sh!t pot , just trying to ride and enjoy the sport.

I would stay away from these "copies" accusations and "we were there first" claims.

First guy to try the canoe,displacement type hull in a DW SUP foil was Kai Lenny,of course.

A member of this forum ( Danish ) home shaped his very own version of this concept way before DKalama published anything about his barracudas.

See the Danish board pics:

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Piros said..

I just don't get your comments and their motivation. You already have a copy from dc and may even be on your second.

if you were fair dinkum you would have just rang Dylan and got all the information you require.
At least we know what Dylan is selling and his motivation.

You could just consider it a pre order opportunity with Dave trying to keep the vultures back just a little while longer before a completely public release.

Never read and heard so much uninformed rubbish in the lead up to a product release as I have in the last 9 months regarding the barracuda. No wonder the details are still guarded.

Really don't know how to answer this. I was the first person ever to bring in a DK Sup foil board to Australia . These stupid comments that DC or anyone else has copied a DK Barrucada without ever seeing one is just mental HTF do you copy something if you've never seen it. Dave even says it in his podcast , so pull your head in and relax. If you really think saying a Barracuda is 7-6 x 20 x 115 liters is giving away secrets, you seriously have lost the plot. If I want to buy a board off Dave I'll do it directly as I have done in the past and get exactly what I want . This mystery lotto draw through Dylan , just seems very strange , that's my point but if that's how it rolls to get one in Aus so be it.... again the new DK Barracuda boards look absolutely amazing and I'm all about sharing the stoke. I'm not trying to try and stir the sh!t pot , just trying to ride and enjoy the sport.

Hey Piros,

From the start Dave has ask to keep the dimensions quiet until he feels it's the right time to release them.

Ok all good I respect that.

I think DK have the right to said its copy since he spend 4 years of R&D and his design really got everyone redefining how DW board should look. All the older boards that was published online(kai first foil board, Danish member and naish's foil board) , none of those got any traction with the mass. Before DK's cudda, how many manufacture were doing similar design, I would said none.

Has Dave seen any of the boards he claims are copies to know if they have in fact copied his design? That argument goes both ways. :)

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Hdip said..
Has Dave seen any of the boards he claims are copies to know if they have in fact copied his design? That argument goes both ways. :)

I am quite new to this forum and to be honest it unfortunately continues to feel extremely unproductive for a number of reasons. If i use this thread as an example, we are talking about a design innovation from Dave Kalama of DW boards going from about 6' X 24-25 to lets say 8' X 19-20. That to me is a huge difference in board design, an innovation of change? What followed from within the industry were early adopters, the early majority, the late majority and the laggards. After watching the video from Kalama performance and reflection on the clips coming out of Maui from Daves team riders its clear to me that Dave was the innovator and the rest followed/ copied the design elements, some more respectful than other on how they came to adopt the change in design.

The opportunity in this case to hear the history and innovation of foiling from a well respected pioneer in the sport is invaluable. The positivity and learning of the opportunity is lost and quickly becomes diluted on this thread when the self interest that motivates some of the responses continues to surface and the strong views and personal theories that are actually not supported by practical experiences and application to the sport are in my opinion unproductive for learning and progression of the forum users. Personal attacks are in my opinion are most productive and respectful in person to find a resolution to co-exist and move forward.

Enjoy the forum guys, this is not the best spend of my time and not providing me with the insights i was hoping to achieve. I hope this feedback helps.
Thanks

I think it's the nature of all internet "discussions"
Personal opinions are expressed and people chime in with their 5c worth.
Personal "attacks" are inevitable
Perhaps the key is to not get emotionally involved ?

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Piros said..

I just don't get your comments and their motivation. You already have a copy from dc and may even be on your second.

if you were fair dinkum you would have just rang Dylan and got all the information you require.
At least we know what Dylan is selling and his motivation.

You could just consider it a pre order opportunity with Dave trying to keep the vultures back just a little while longer before a completely public release.

Never read and heard so much uninformed rubbish in the lead up to a product release as I have in the last 9 months regarding the barracuda. No wonder the details are still guarded.

Really don't know how to answer this. I was the first person ever to bring in a DK Sup foil board to Australia . These stupid comments that DC or anyone else has copied a DK Barrucada without ever seeing one is just mental HTF do you copy something if you've never seen it. Dave even says it in his podcast , so pull your head in and relax. If you really think saying a Barracuda is 7-6 x 20 x 115 liters is giving away secrets, you seriously have lost the plot. If I want to buy a board off Dave I'll do it directly as I have done in the past and get exactly what I want . This mystery lotto draw through Dylan , just seems very strange , that's my point but if that's how it rolls to get one in Aus so be it.... again the new DK Barracuda boards look absolutely amazing and I'm all about sharing the stoke. I'm not trying to try and stir the sh!t pot , just trying to ride and enjoy the sport.

Whether you copy from pictures, video or a laser measuring device in person just influences the quality of the copy but a copy is still a copy. It doesn't mean the design should not influence the future of other credible designers and some have done it respectfully.

I be specific, your post on here was to whinge about a product release that you attributed to Dylan. You were wrong and your motivation came accross as personal.

Your misunderstanding of the processes and still calling it a lotto draw is just wrong. Total BS but you repeated again after I called you out. Where is your ethics and respect.

Not a good look.
Well said Hank1 and thank you.

Well my 5 cents

There is really nothing new going on here. The copy verses original debate exists in all industries. It's the nature of competitive business. Unfortunately it is needed, to control costs and it also drives further innovation.

The Barracuda design as downwind Sup by DK's own admission, is not some stroke of genius that needs to be respected or revered , it was a lucky result of trying to solve prone DW capability. But being lucky is a good thing and should be congratulated.

I have worked in an Industry were I sell originals against literally 1000's of copies for 30 years.

The steps to take I believe, if you come up with something innovative you believe in, you have to throw everything into getting it to market as quickly as possible. Freedom foil boards, Armstrong, Axis, Amos to name just a few, all have seen the potential, done their follow up R & D, built the moulds and have got production versions to market ...... and Barracudas are still not available.

Of course local custom shapers all over the world have jumped on it as well.

DK who lucked in to the idea years before, needed to be first to market with a production version ... not last. Im sure everyone wishs he had and could have bought a barracuda 12 months ago. Bit of a missed opportunity, and being defensive about the availability of copies comes across as being a bit well .. defensive and trying to catch up to market forces.

So even though they should have been available 12 months ago, I find people, in general are respectful of design and concept heritage and will pay more for the "original".

The Barracudas need to be positioned as not only the original, but also the elite. They should be priced higher then the copies, superior construction and potential more fun to ride. Rather then trying to hide the "secret sauce of difference" as customers we need to know what makes them special. Then we are happy to buy.

I got a "local version" almost a year ago now .. a "copy" . "ode to" .. whatever you want to call it, and its been so much fun to play with and learn about.

Am happy to buy, pay more and would be proud to own a DK, whenever they become available , but I want to like to know the sizes available and what the difference's are to the board I have.

(That was a bit long ... more like 10 cents !)

Ok, so what sizes are gonna be available

To be honest, in most of these advances, the "copiers" are not braindead copycats.
Once they know something is possible, they have the years of knowledge and the expertise to refine prototypes by themselves to make it work, without knowing the details. May be not as well as the original, but differently, and maybe better in some ways.

Example of these ideas:
- just slap a 3rd fin on the tail of a twin fin
- attach a sail by a flexible joint to the center of a tandem surf board
- propel a surfboard by a kite
- try paddling standing up on a tandem board with a long canoe paddle
- try using a foil under a SUP with a thick profile working at low speeds
- revisist the freewing idea but with a kitesurf sail
and...
- try a longer, thicker, narrower, pintailed board for SUP downwind

With just the knowledge that these sentences "work", a lot of expert people will come up with working designs, once they know it is possible, and can persevere trying things in this direction.

We respect and understand the frustration of DK when some copy their designs. We also saw other companies copying his square shapes in the early beginning.
The truth is that when we talk about sup foil, Kalama is the gold standard. Volume distribution, stability, box position, and angle, and finally foot straps position. Everything is in the right spot and has been tested extensively.
I cannot say the same about other boards, especially if you use foot straps.

Nah , forget Kalama Barracuda this board is the gold standard , I've ordered a container load and I'll even tell you the dimensions. This is the premium version with secret tail step and 24 inch timber tracks so you can screw the foil wherever you like !

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kobo said..
Nah , forget Kalama Barracuda this board is the gold standard , I've ordered a container load and I'll even tell you the dimensions. This is the premium version with secret tail step and 24 inch timber tracks so you can screw the foil wherever you like !

Kobo. This is the best barracuda "style" board I have seen. The tail is super sexy and I love how it fits in your truck.. Foil must be mounted in the perfect position. Go fella!
-red

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baldy123 said..
I like the way they look. Taking a while to get here to Oz, but fair play to Dylan for securing 30 DK boards for the Oz foil market in this first Cuda shipment. I don't envy any importer or shop right now trying to decide what gear to please people in this ever changing market of ideas, innovation and creation. Some people change their boards and foils more often than their bed sheets. An old fashioned phone call to Dylan gave me dimensions I wanted to know without any deposit or Non-Disclosure agreement. Looking forward testing how these boards perform on ripple waves and downwind coast runs to see if they live up to the hype. Here is a sick shot of Tomo riding the 8 foot Cuda. Happy foiling punters.

This foil box is too short. If gofoil sits there, the is no way it will work with Armstrong.

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Pacoo said..

baldy123 said..
I like the way they look. Taking a while to get here to Oz, but fair play to Dylan for securing 30 DK boards for the Oz foil market in this first Cuda shipment. I don't envy any importer or shop right now trying to decide what gear to please people in this ever changing market of ideas, innovation and creation. Some people change their boards and foils more often than their bed sheets. An old fashioned phone call to Dylan gave me dimensions I wanted to know without any deposit or Non-Disclosure agreement. Looking forward testing how these boards perform on ripple waves and downwind coast runs to see if they live up to the hype. Here is a sick shot of Tomo riding the 8 foot Cuda. Happy foiling punters.

This foil box is too short. If gofoil sits there, the is no way it will work with Armstrong.

For sure and that's why I went Sunova , also Amos is good for Armstrong,lift etc

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Pacoo said..This foil box is too short. If gofoil sits there, the is no way it will work with Armstrong.

Is that the production board in that photo? I thought they had longer boxes.

That looks pretty far forward.