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Kankama said..
What total bull**** - shame that people with experience can put out so much crap.

One more time for the dummies

Performance cats of today are part of a continuum - mine has never lifted a hull in 24 years and so is very safe from capsize, it is no way near the edge but because it has daggerboards and is relatively light I would call it a performance cruiser. But what the silly people in the video forget is that performance cats shine when sailing gets hard - any cat can do 7 knots downwind in the trades. But it takes a nice sailing cat to sail to windward well in a developed seaway, or do windspeed in 8 knots of true wind. This is where I love my boat. She sails - just like a nice mono is nice to sail - she makes me smile just to sail her even after all these decades.

I can't believe that anyone who owned a Pescott couldn't figure out that the best sailing comes from getting to windward when everyone else is bashing into a headsea and motoring, or sailing under screecher in silence and a dead flat sea when all others are motoring in their own clouds of exhaust. Back off when the wind blows up but performance cats are not for getting it on all the time but for being nice to sail. Who wouldn't want a nice sailing boat when cruising, why have a dead helm and no feel and a boat that can't tack easily, or sail its way out of a lee shore well? As for getting PTSD from sailing a nice cat - what must anyone in a small mono get? Are all Tophat, Compass 28, Defiance 30 and Mottle 33 sailors suffering too - oh wait - these used to be the boats everyone had and no one got PTSD - what idiocy these guys spout - clickbait stupidity of the highest order.

As for not having enough weight carrying. How much junk do you need? We had 4 bikes, surfboards, food for three months and 500 litres of water and school books and kids stuff - and the boat was on her lines. It takes very little effort to keep the boat on weight.

I shake my head at videos like these - no balance and all bias.

Rant over

"Rant over", are you sure? This is like your third or fourth rant on this thread.

I thought it was well balanced, comfort vs performance vs cost. Pick what is most important for your needs because all boats are a compromise but I must be a dummy.

Sounds like you know what's best for everyone.

Yeah probably not over.

The PTSD stuff had me quaffing in my drink. How can anyone make that claim and yet read books by John Sanders doing his two circs in a SS34 or Hiscocks in Wanderer 3. Also they missed that you don't go at 15 knots everywhere in your performance cat. It's the fact that is sails nicely that gets you interested. Then there is the "I don't know of any Lagoon or Leopard that has capsized"

What about

www.seychellesnewsagency.com/articles/3297/German+nationals+unharmed+as+chartered+catamaran+capsized+south+west+of+Seychelles+main+island

or

www.boatinternational.com/yachts/news/agonising-turn-of-events-as-hull-of-missing-catamaran-is-lost-again--29253

That took a whole 30 seconds of Google searching - let alone Lagoons and leopard build problems which is another issue. Non performance cats have their own issues.

I think these guys are pushing their own agenda - which is fine. I tried watching their channel and got put off when they started spouting about inventing a new type of rudder. Which is found on every Fastback catamaran in Australia. So they look like they know a lot but like many Youtubers - they are not well researched or unbiased.

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Kankama said..
Yeah probably not over.

The PTSD stuff had me quaffing in my drink. How can anyone make that claim and yet read books by John Sanders doing his two circs in a SS34 or Hiscocks in Wanderer 3. Also they missed that you don't go at 15 knots everywhere in your performance cat. It's the fact that is sails nicely that gets you interested. Then there is the "I don't know of any Lagoon or Leopard that has capsized"

What about

www.seychellesnewsagency.com/articles/3297/German+nationals+unharmed+as+chartered+catamaran+capsized+south+west+of+Seychelles+main+island

or

www.boatinternational.com/yachts/news/agonising-turn-of-events-as-hull-of-missing-catamaran-is-lost-again--29253

That took a whole 30 seconds of Google searching - let alone Lagoons and leopard build problems which is another issue. Non performance cats have their own issues.

I think these guys are pushing their own agenda - which is fine. I tried watching their channel and got put off when they started spouting about inventing a new type of rudder. Which is found on every Fastback catamaran in Australia. So they look like they know a lot but like many Youtubers - they are not well researched or unbiased.

Your a bit all over the shop as well

One one hand you mention having to slow your boat down to 7 knots to give the crew a rest and on the other your into the you tubers for saying the same thing, sailing fast in open ocean can be wearing on a crew. So did the you tubers get that bit wrong or not.

Also you call BS on the risks of capsizing a performance cat, because you have never flown a hull, you then confirm cruising cats have capsized. That seems to be a contradiction, is a performance cat with a lighter displacement and more powerful rig less prone to capsize than a heavy cruiser with a smaller rig, that appears to be your argument. They literally said a cruiser is a bit more forgiving to sail than a performance boat in terms of active inputs from the crew. Who would have that would be the case.

I don't know how to diagnose PTSD but it seems pretty clear some people get scared sailing and it stands to reason that a faster more performance orientated boat is more likely to scare a person like that than a heavy cruiser. Just because John Sanders can sail around the world in a 34 footer doesn't mean everyone can. Quaff away in your drink all you like but facts are some people are frightened of sailing.

The entire premise of the video was that boats are a compromise, you sacrifice one thing to emphasise another. In this case it was performance versus comfort. You call BS on the premise but then contradict yourself. So maybe you can explain one more time for the dummies how that is incorrect.

I'm no fan of heavy cats, I wouldn't own any cat, not true I have a soft spot for Wharrams, but each to their own right. The video was just pointing out the trade offs between different boats. Seemed reasonable to me.

Yeah on the whole, and especially since their new build was criticised by another YouTuber, I think the video was pretty fair although I did pull them up in the comments on an erroneous recollection of a real life YouTube Fiji to GCS buddy boating passage from 2020 involving an Outremer 51 and a Privilege 58.

You only have to go back to the recent Baysian thread to see a video of a large Catamaran flipping end to end at anchor in New Zealand in a storm. It's pretty obvious that a light cat will flip first although, depending upon conditions, windage and boards up or down will play a part.

One interesting point that wasn't raised and which my friend with a cat always points out is that cats tend to float whereas monohulls sink. This phenomenon is largely true due to the fact that cats don't have a heavy keel pulling them down PLUS most, if not timber, are foam or balsa sandwiches which have inherent flotation to counteract the weight of the motors. Ignoring watertight compartments it would seem that building a cat from aluminium as opposed to a glass/carbon sandwich might eliminate this advantage. That is of course relevant if you survive the initial flip although the buoyancy is obviously a benefit in other scenarios like running a ground where the aluminium cat may not be holed in the first place. Doesn't help you if your through hull goes though.

Like everything ya pays your money and makes ya choice. If you are the anxiety prone type a different type of boat might be more appropriate than one aimed at a thrill seeker. I have no doubt that a gunboat would give an anxiety prone sailor anguish.
I guess it's called risk appetite.
At one extreme end you sit home and live vicariously by watching YouTube videos.

We all make these choices all the time- oversize anchor or smaller anchor, heaps of chain or small/short chain, backup anchor, liferaft, insurance or no insurance, lightweight boat with small root keel and bulb or integral full keel; reef or don't reef.....

How about this?



Transatlantic Cargo Trimaran

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D3 said..
How about this?



Transatlantic Cargo Trimaran

Riley from La Vagabond is toying with the idea of another boat. Maybe you should bring this to his attention.

There must be a breakthrough in the laws of physics which make trimarans work provided they are lightweight.

I think the thing that most Youtubers miss is that just because you have potential does not mean you have to use it. This is like how we all drive our cars. Even without speed limits it is very rare that you let your car rip - you are almost always driving to the conditions - much as we do at sea.

Measuring a performance cat by overall metrics like SA/D is not terribly helpful. My second multi was an SA/D machine but she went slower than our current cat when in cruise mode. That was because she shook us around lots and so we slowed down. Like a car driven in a hypothetical world without speed limits - you go as fast as you can without worrying the passengers and keeping it safe.

There is a really subtle bit of design work that allows ocean going boats to do serious miles at a lope. That is what I think most commentors miss in their comments. I want easy going speed - the ability to "accidentally" do lots of miles when making bread or reading a book. The boat just clipping along and taking care if itself and the miles with just an eye kept now and then. So just like us driving around, you can have a machine with lots of spare potential - that allows you to get out of trouble and can speed along when conditions are just right - but most of the time it is about sailing easy and swiftly. Going fast at low loads, with smaller sails than anyone else out there - because she slips along. So you want performance, but it has to be achievable cruising performance - one that the kids and family can accept - the features that allow this are not well known.

As for some of the comments - let's take one first - loads. I get scared of loads on multis. Unless you have sailed them you don't understand the awfully high loads the sheets can produce. The muscle required and the loads produced on the sheets and stays on a heavy cat are much higher than those on a lighter cat, even if the faster cat is going a fair bit faster. The loads on big boats can kill and heavy multis have more ability to cause crews to be hurt by winch loads or sheet's whipping around, breakages causing issues. There have been guys thrown from high helm chairs on production cats because they pitch and combine this with high helm position. Again, these things are complex.

Sure all cats cats can capsize but in the link on the Leopard capsizing the crew died. One problem with heavier cats is that they can actually sink and float lower than a lighter cat if capsized. My cat has inverted flotation built in so it has a higher chance of capsize (if I don't throttle back but I usually do - ex mono sailor so I know about gear changing) but a better chance of inverted survival - the maths is complex.

Proper design - both cat and mono - requires subtlety in hull shape, rig choice, bridgedeck clearance, cabin profile, cockpit arrangement, boat size. All these things are really important to make a cat nice to sail - but they are often ignored. I really like John Kretschmer's books - he has done huge miles and writes really well. He loves his boat - Quetzal - a Kaufmann about 47ft long. She does not have a high SA/D boat but he loves the fact that she does big miles easily and just trucks. And the design features that allow this are subtle. You can't place any boat in a continuum just on SA/D and make valid claims without considering a huge range of other numbers- it doesn't really work.
My basic point is that "performance" cats can be MORE comfortable than heavier production cats - lower sheet and halyard loads, higher clearance clearance, less bridegdeck slap, easier cockpit setout for sailing, better visibility, lower CG, less pitching and the ability to get in out of bad weather when required and tied to a tree. It is not as simple as performance cat equals less comfort - I think the reverse is valid for a whole group of people.