what a magnificent boat I have no affiliation with this boat at all2019 Schionning G-Force 1700C' "WildFire"

Very cool boat. I have walked admiringly alongside it in a marina but I can't remember where.

AARGH! I can't stand the pretend reverse bows that designers smush onto normal cats. For anyone who cares, the bow shape of a boat is a product of the hull flare. If you have straight tapered sides, the bow developed from such a shape will be the IOR straight bow, a little curve in the topsides produces the spoon bow, a little hollow in the topsides produces the clipper bow, and inverted straight flare produces the reverse bow.

I once was building a trimaran and the designer could not get the hull design software to produce the final bow shape. But it didn't matter. The hull construction called for a block of foam at the ends of the hulls. I just got a fairing board and faired the block using the rest of the hull as a guide - the bow profile just appeared out of the foam. Ends are not designed, they just spring from the flare, the topside curves and the waterlines.

Which is why I detest these squished ends on these cats like Wildfire. It is like they ran the top of the bow into a marina piling and it squished up. What designers are trying to do is replicate the look from an inverted flare cat like an A class or Sail GP 50 cat. In those hulls the inverted flare produces a narrow deckline and reverse bows - it springs naturally from the hull shape - it is a great shape, great for driving into a wave or under chop with little increase in drag. BUt that is not what is happening on Wildfire.

Wildfire has slab sides. So her natural bow shape should be plumb and straight. But Schionning (and lots of others) smush racey A class bows onto them by shortening the station length up high in the bow sections. If we could view the waterlines we would see a distortion, but you can see it anyway. AS for doing what reverse bows are supposed to do - be submerged with little increase in drag - welll that aint going to happen with with the nets there. Many reverse bow cats have a normal forebeam as well. But really, when you do the hull dynamics, you are not going to bury these bows and be powering along like on a Sail Gp cat - the freeboard is much higher, so the angle required to get the bows immersed means you are leeward rudder out when smoking along - that just doesn't happen -it's not a real case use scenario. However, jumping off the bows when in a marina, or needing the bridle lines as far forward as possible is something you want every day, heck you probably want some normal flare in a cruising cat to reduce water over the boat, some sort of wave break to reduce spray. Performance cruising cats aren't limited by speed potential - they are always limited by the "feeling" of stress and load on the crew - there is no way a cruising cat is going to sail along with a couple on board immersing their bows - someone is going to get off really quickly when the jaunt is over. Real fast cruising cats feel safe, and in some ways sedate - allowing you to cover miles effortlessly and easily - you are not going to get your more reluctant partner to come along if you do they type of sailing these bows are made for. And this one doesn't even do this!

So boats like this make me cranky - they are affectation over function. You lose the ability to have your anchor lines tied onto the bows right forward so the reverse bows become problematic with bridles, and it is harder to jump from them when mooring, or push on a bollard. BUt to someone who has watched a bow shape magically appear under their hands and who knows why the reverse bow originates - its like putting a spoiler on a SUV, mags on a garbage truck, or race slicks on the family car - it's a stupid attempt to conjoin incompatible traits for no reason other than dumb looks - give me a plumb bow anyday.

Can you tell these bows stick in my craw? At least mono designers haven't gone this stupid yet.

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Kankama said..
AARGH! I can't stand the pretend reverse bows that designers smush onto normal cats. For anyone who cares, the bow shape of a boat is a product of the hull flare. If you have straight tapered sides, the bow developed from such a shape will be the IOR straight bow, a little curve in the topsides produces the spoon bow, a little hollow in the topsides produces the clipper bow, and inverted straight flare produces the reverse bow.

I'm glad you said that, I got told that the hull form is the ONLY thing that should dictate the bow section shape. I woulda thought it was originally a plumb bow, but It looks like it has a conventional bow but with a big triangle glassed onto it.
I wonder if the hull gets confused, it feels like it'd get trapped between wave piercing and bouyancy.

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Kankama said..
AARGH! I can't stand the pretend reverse bows that designers smush onto normal cats. For anyone who cares, the bow shape of a boat is a product of the hull flare. If you have straight tapered sides, the bow developed from such a shape will be the IOR straight bow, a little curve in the topsides produces the spoon bow, a little hollow in the topsides produces the clipper bow, and inverted straight flare produces the reverse bow.

I once was building a trimaran and the designer could not get the hull design software to produce the final bow shape. But it didn't matter. The hull construction called for a block of foam at the ends of the hulls. I just got a fairing board and faired the block using the rest of the hull as a guide - the bow profile just appeared out of the foam. Ends are not designed, they just spring from the flare, the topside curves and the waterlines.

Which is why I detest these squished ends on these cats like Wildfire. It is like they ran the top of the bow into a marina piling and it squished up. What designers are trying to do is replicate the look from an inverted flare cat like an A class or Sail GP 50 cat. In those hulls the inverted flare produces a narrow deckline and reverse bows - it springs naturally from the hull shape - it is a great shape, great for driving into a wave or under chop with little increase in drag. BUt that is not what is happening on Wildfire.

Wildfire has slab sides. So her natural bow shape should be plumb and straight. But Schionning (and lots of others) smush racey A class bows onto them by shortening the station length up high in the bow sections. If we could view the waterlines we would see a distortion, but you can see it anyway. AS for doing what reverse bows are supposed to do - be submerged with little increase in drag - welll that aint going to happen with with the nets there. Many reverse bow cats have a normal forebeam as well. But really, when you do the hull dynamics, you are not going to bury these bows and be powering along like on a Sail Gp cat - the freeboard is much higher, so the angle required to get the bows immersed means you are leeward rudder out when smoking along - that just doesn't happen -it's not a real case use scenario. However, jumping off the bows when in a marina, or needing the bridle lines as far forward as possible is something you want every day, heck you probably want some normal flare in a cruising cat to reduce water over the boat, some sort of wave break to reduce spray. Performance cruising cats aren't limited by speed potential - they are always limited by the "feeling" of stress and load on the crew - there is no way a cruising cat is going to sail along with a couple on board immersing their bows - someone is going to get off really quickly when the jaunt is over. Real fast cruising cats feel safe, and in some ways sedate - allowing you to cover miles effortlessly and easily - you are not going to get your more reluctant partner to come along if you do they type of sailing these bows are made for. And this one doesn't even do this!

So boats like this make me cranky - they are affectation over function. You lose the ability to have your anchor lines tied onto the bows right forward so the reverse bows become problematic with bridles, and it is harder to jump from them when mooring, or push on a bollard. BUt to someone who has watched a bow shape magically appear under their hands and who knows why the reverse bow originates - its like putting a spoiler on a SUV, mags on a garbage truck, or race slicks on the family car - it's a stupid attempt to conjoin incompatible traits for no reason other than dumb looks - give me a plumb bow anyday.

Can you tell these bows stick in my craw? At least mono designers haven't gone this stupid yet.

Well put. So thoughts on underwater bulbs protruding forwards on larger cats and presumably supplying buoyancy?

Wonder what effect it has on the annoying pitching/hobbyhorsing that larger cats suffer from.

The so-called tulip bows of the 471 Catana's always interest me although they are fairly mild.

The Crowther bulbs were a way of getting bouyancy further forward. He helped start the idea of fuller hulls. It didn't take long before other designers made their ends fuller without bulbs - which is where we are today. But I like the bulbs, the waterlines are still fair with no distortions - the stations have both inward and outward flare - but even that is faired, so no worries for me.

If you look at the images of the Catana you will see nice flat decks - right up to the bow. Shaggy's great pic shows what happens to the deck shape when you make a proper reverse bow with hull flare - you get narrow decks - which is great - in a race boat but terrible in a cruiser.

BUt when cruising you will very rarely immerse the bow - in thousands of miles of cruising I have momentarily immersed the bow twice - for about 50cm and a couple of seconds in one downwind situation and I shoved it into a square wave in the Whitsundays and got the deck wet going upwind. But look at the pic of the person being able to walk around the nice flat decks - every time the boat is used. You will use that flat deck every time you moor and tie up. Also see how the forebeam and the seagull striker provide extra security for looking forward - Wildfire has no forebeam and no seagull striker - no what do you hold onto when you are watching dolphins on the bows? That is many tens of times more common than immersing bows on my cat.

That is why these decks piss me off - they compromise your ability to cruise to pretend to do something that almost never happens. And with Wildfire - the decks are high drag anyway with the faired triangle of drag probably worse for immersion drag than a straight flat deck. So it doesn't even work as it should anyway! Dumb feature.

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MAGNESIUM said..
what a magnificent boat I have no affiliation with this boat at all2019 Schionning G-Force 1700C' "WildFire"

Absolutely butt duck ugly
and as for the bolt on tits in the front kankama has explained that very clearly

Anyone want to explain the affectation on the aft quarter of each hull

Just a silly thing recess motif Schionning did to reduce the slab sided nature of the hulls. Again a pretty silly thing, hard to fair, puts in some weakness at the edges and is slightly more weight. Could have done it with paint. Don't get me wrong, there are some good Schionnings too. My mate ahas a lovely fast and luxurious 1350 waterline, a seriously fast cat. Funnily enough we were chatting about his trip to the Louisiades the other day. They were doing almost 17 knots in the flat water before they left the reef pass of Townsville, then down to about 7 to keep everyone happy offshore in the slightly forward of beam seas when truly offshore. It is rarely the boat that slows you down in tradewind conditions, it is the crew tired of hanging on. Important to remember speed requires the boat install security in the crew more than flat out potential.

The dichotomy between realestate up fwd and aft stood out to me as well.

The transom of each hull featured acres of flat surface but if looks like there isn't any flat fwd of the house?

Despite the criticisms it is still a pretty darned impressive boat up close. Real estate upfront of course is not good in the catamaran as there is limited buoyancy up front and the weight must be kept right down. Admittedly this doesn't really apply to walkable sitable areas which don't really add much weight and are necessary four efficient handling of the boat.

At $1.7M AUD you'd hope it was pretty darned impressive.

Has it sold already?

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D3 said..
At $1.7M AUD you'd hope it was pretty darned impressive.

Has it sold already?

If it has, it's gone to a buyer that values form over functionality as evidenced by the bastardised bows. At that price range and the ongoing costs, I'd walk straight past it.

I don't see any criticism of the high freeboard high windage block of flats that are stuck Together with glue and the lucky owner perched 3 stories in the air just to see where they are going.

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MAGNESIUM said..
I don't see any criticism of the high freeboard high windage block of flats that are stuck Together with glue and the lucky owner perched 3 stories in the air just to see where they are going.

:) . Post one Magnesium, I'm sure it'll cop so much more criticism that the poor Schionning will look like a saint by comparison !
Its not like the cruising picklefork offerings don't deserve some criticism (think Leopard and Lagoon). I spent two years talking to architects, vendors and experienced peeps that have been there done that before deciding on my last boat purchase, I think your average punter needs to do similar, at least at this price point, to get the proper quality boats that most assuredly are out there.

Edit: One day when I'm bored I should go and count how many Youtube saililng Vlogs channels I could find with happy new multihull owners. Of course, one could always increase the budget even more as a way of guaranteeing a happy outcome. Here's one chap that bought brand new and spent a nuts amount of money as a safeguard against issues.

?si=P5tatSEVm3Toq9dP

Err.......

If I was buying new, custom or production, I would do same thing as the gentleman who built my boat. In this instance it was a custom build so he employed a builder (and crew) and assisted them with the build but he had a surveyor come and check the work at various stages to ensure the quality of the work was a satisfactory standard. The builders work was subjected to expert quality checks.

If a builder didn't agree to that condition I would not proceed with the contract. Anyway won't be problem for me unless I win Lotto

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MAGNESIUM said..
I don't see any criticism of the high freeboard high windage block of flats that are stuck Together with glue and the lucky owner perched 3 stories in the air just to see where they are going.

That is because you have not posted about one yet.
If i have this right the earlier sisterships all needed stern extensions as well as they squatted at speed.
It would be interesting if that was caused by too much weight or the lift caused by too much bow volume.

Schionning can design some very nice cats, friends have really nice ones - as someone who has built many multi bows I stand by my criticism of bow affectations on these models, but I am even more dubious of many "amazing" boats.

My loud point is that these boats are for someone else, not yor typical Seabreezer - someone really rich and able to spend lots of money keeping the boat in shape. I am reasonably proficient at most aspects of boat building - not wonderful on the electronics and I don't make my own sails - but I do almost all the work on my own boats. I wouldn't own this boat if you gave it to me - along with a Leopard 45 or Naiad 49.

They are too big, and too complex for the people I know who sail. My 38ft cat is quite simple and it is as much boat as I can handle. I spent 2 hours yesterday chasing a fault in my anchor winch. It was quite fun and I learnt about brushes and fault finding. If I had the professionals out it probably would have cost me $600 or so - at least. But my boat is simple enough for me to stay on the DIY side and not venture into the money haemorrhaging side of boat ownership.

So my table thumping about "great boats to NOT own" is based on 45 years of boat ownership. The things we own, own us. Designers keep on drawing boats that you dare only own for about 3 years before you sell it so that you can clear your mind and breathe again, without the strain of having a huge investment worrying you day and night.

Because you might lose your boat - so it has to be something you try as hell not to lose but that you might. So get a good boat, a safe boat, get a lovely boat to sail, but do not let your imagination run away with you. Get the simplest and least expensive boat that will allow you to fall in love with it and love sailing. And the best thing is, when a boat owes you less, you can enjoy it more. You can scuff it and not lose your temper, you can let the kids borrow it, you can leave it on the mooring and have a holiday. I look at these "dream" boats - multi or mono - and think - for most people these boats will be a nightmare.

I am biased - I have seen a dream boat turn into a nightmare. I lost my best friend over a dream boat I built for him. He killed himself after I left the project - his dreams turned to dust. So I am way off beam when I look at super cruisers - I see a dark side of dreams unfulfilled. Your life won't be any better if you get the "amazing super boat".

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lydia said..

MAGNESIUM said..
I don't see any criticism of the high freeboard high windage block of flats that are stuck Together with glue and the lucky owner perched 3 stories in the air just to see where they are going.

That is because you have not posted about one yet.
If i have this right the earlier sisterships all needed stern extensions as well as they squatted at speed.
It would be interesting if that was caused by too much weight or the lift caused by too much bow volume.

That's the risk you take with one-off designs or low volume designs.
In that regard production boats aren't all bad. As you might have guessed my dream boat is a Catana 471. Plenty of those around relatively speaking and they were built for a decade or more if you include variants. Plenty of messed up ones around but there should be a few good ones.

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Kankama said..
Schionning can design some very nice cats, friends have really nice ones - as someone who has built many multi bows I stand by my criticism of bow affectations on these models, but I am even more dubious of many "amazing" boats.

My loud point is that these boats are for someone else, not yor typical Seabreezer - someone really rich and able to spend lots of money keeping the boat in shape. I am reasonably proficient at most aspects of boat building - not wonderful on the electronics and I don't make my own sails - but I do almost all the work on my own boats. I wouldn't own this boat if you gave it to me - along with a Leopard 45 or Naiad 49.

They are too big, and too complex for the people I know who sail. My 38ft cat is quite simple and it is as much boat as I can handle. I spent 2 hours yesterday chasing a fault in my anchor winch. It was quite fun and I learnt about brushes and fault finding. If I had the professionals out it probably would have cost me $600 or so - at least. But my boat is simple enough for me to stay on the DIY side and not venture into the money haemorrhaging side of boat ownership.

So my table thumping about "great boats to NOT own" is based on 45 years of boat ownership. The things we own, own us. Designers keep on drawing boats that you dare only own for about 3 years before you sell it so that you can clear your mind and breathe again, without the strain of having a huge investment worrying you day and night.

Because you might lose your boat - so it has to be something you try as hell not to lose but that you might. So get a good boat, a safe boat, get a lovely boat to sail, but do not let your imagination run away with you. Get the simplest and least expensive boat that will allow you to fall in love with it and love sailing. And the best thing is, when a boat owes you less, you can enjoy it more. You can scuff it and not lose your temper, you can let the kids borrow it, you can leave it on the mooring and have a holiday. I look at these "dream" boats - multi or mono - and think - for most people these boats will be a nightmare.

I am biased - I have seen a dream boat turn into a nightmare. I lost my best friend over a dream boat I built for him. He killed himself after I left the project - his dreams turned to dust. So I am way off beam when I look at super cruisers - I see a dark side of dreams unfulfilled. Your life won't be any better if you get the "amazing super boat".

Yeah I could afford a nice 471 but like you the maintenance costs terrify me. Like you I also do most of my own maintenance but you just kind of avoid insurance companies and slipways as well as sails.
I think when you get to that size you need to be renting out your house and living on it to do whatever you want to do for two or three years in which case the cost is justified.

So I've learnt a bit on this thread.

I'm not in the market, but Mumby's seem desirable to me this looks ok, why wouldn't this make a better buy?

yachthub.com/list/yachts-for-sale/used/sail-catamarans/mumby-48/318030

For me it would be a muich better buy. It is cheaper, has proper flat areas to walk on, has long legs so she does serious miles easily, is tough and can handle the realities of cruising life. Mumby is one of my favourite designers, being a designer who has done serious miles on his own boats that he builds. She is relatively simple and easy enough to care for as a single owner doing most of the work yourself. The owner was in his mid 60s or so when he started sailing her - often on his own and she has some serious Tasman ocean crossing pedigree. Great boat, not flashy but seriously capable.

Thanks, I was forming the same opinion but from no experience base except a period on a Lagoon 380, my wife loved the Lagoon and in her eyes that's the standard for the next boat.

The biggest drawback to me in the Mumby seems to be the twin double berths, both have zero headroom, seems to limit the bunk to sleeping. I guess there are always the trampolines.

Our cat has only about 800mm over the bunks - how do I say this - it's fine with some limitations. But the extra low headroom part of the bunk can be a pain - I have this sort of design in my 7 metre cat - I am not really sure why it is on a large cat.

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Kankama said..
Our cat has only about 800mm over the bunks - how do I say this - it's fine with some limitations. But the extra low headroom part of the bunk can be a pain - I have this sort of design in my 7 metre cat - I am not really sure why it is on a large cat.

A Crowther 60' I used to crew on had crew bunks you slid into more than you sat on, no headroom at all. Great for really bad conditions as it's hard to fall out of a hole, but not the spacious accomodations one would expect for a 60'er .

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shaggybaxter said..

Kankama said..
Our cat has only about 800mm over the bunks - how do I say this - it's fine with some limitations. But the extra low headroom part of the bunk can be a pain - I have this sort of design in my 7 metre cat - I am not really sure why it is on a large cat.

A Crowther 60' I used to crew on had crew bunks you slid into more than you sat on, no headroom at all. Great for really bad conditions as it's hard to fall out of a hole, but not the spacious accomodations one would expect for a 60'er .

Not good for the condensation you generate while asleep either even if you do pursue extra curricular activities elsewhere. I've never been on a Mumby but would def consider one. But weird looking tho.

Got a friend who will be trading up ) from 42 ft) a 50-ft cat once his house which is currently on the market for 4 million sells although unfortunately he is into room for dive gear and cruising so it won't be a performance cat with dagger boards. I'll probably spend a fair bit time on the new boat which is looking like it might be a Fountaine Pajot after all the bad Lagoon and Leopard press.

What's weird looking? Looks like a generic cat, just with greater bridgedeck clearance.

I do like the removable hard windows at the front of the dodger.

There are very few cats (or monos for that matter) that have good lines and proportions from all angles IMHO, and still maintain the functional characteristics that you want.
Wildfire was built with alot of attention to detail, but probably was too much of a boat for a cruising couple.

My wife could not touch the underside of the bridgedeck roof when standing in the cockpit, it's alot of boat.

Like all boats, you choose the features you value most.
I wish the owners good luck with the sale and hope she goes into good hands.

This seems like a common sense approach to assessing what type of boat you want

What total bull**** - shame that people with experience can put out so much crap.

One more time for the dummies

Performance cats of today are part of a continuum - mine has never lifted a hull in 24 years and so is very safe from capsize, it is no way near the edge but because it has daggerboards and is relatively light I would call it a performance cruiser. But what the silly people in the video forget is that performance cats shine when sailing gets hard - any cat can do 7 knots downwind in the trades. But it takes a nice sailing cat to sail to windward well in a developed seaway, or do windspeed in 8 knots of true wind. This is where I love my boat. She sails - just like a nice mono is nice to sail - she makes me smile just to sail her even after all these decades.

I can't believe that anyone who owned a Pescott couldn't figure out that the best sailing comes from getting to windward when everyone else is bashing into a headsea and motoring, or sailing under screecher in silence and a dead flat sea when all others are motoring in their own clouds of exhaust. Back off when the wind blows up but performance cats are not for getting it on all the time but for being nice to sail. Who wouldn't want a nice sailing boat when cruising, why have a dead helm and no feel and a boat that can't tack easily, or sail its way out of a lee shore well? As for getting PTSD from sailing a nice cat - what must anyone in a small mono get? Are all Tophat, Compass 28, Defiance 30 and Mottle 33 sailors suffering too - oh wait - these used to be the boats everyone had and no one got PTSD - what idiocy these guys spout - clickbait stupidity of the highest order.

As for not having enough weight carrying. How much junk do you need? We had 4 bikes, surfboards, food for three months and 500 litres of water and school books and kids stuff - and the boat was on her lines. It takes very little effort to keep the boat on weight.

I shake my head at videos like these - no balance and all bias.

Rant over

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Kankama said..
What total bull**** - shame that people with experience can put out so much crap.

One more time for the dummies

Performance cats of today are part of a continuum - mine has never lifted a hull in 24 years and so is very safe from capsize, it is no way near the edge but because it has daggerboards and is relatively light I would call it a performance cruiser. But what the silly people in the video forget is that performance cats shine when sailing gets hard - any cat can do 7 knots downwind in the trades. But it takes a nice sailing cat to sail to windward well in a developed seaway, or do windspeed in 8 knots of true wind. This is where I love my boat. She sails - just like a nice mono is nice to sail - she makes me smile just to sail her even after all these decades.

I can't believe that anyone who owned a Pescott couldn't figure out that the best sailing comes from getting to windward when everyone else is bashing into a headsea and motoring, or sailing under screecher in silence and a dead flat sea when all others are motoring in their own clouds of exhaust. Back off when the wind blows up but performance cats are not for getting it on all the time but for being nice to sail. Who wouldn't want a nice sailing boat when cruising, why have a dead helm and no feel and a boat that can't tack easily, or sail its way out of a lee shore well? As for getting PTSD from sailing a nice cat - what must anyone in a small mono get? Are all Tophat, Compass 28, Defiance 30 and Mottle 33 sailors suffering too - oh wait - these used to be the boats everyone had and no one got PTSD - what idiocy these guys spout - clickbait stupidity of the highest order.

As for not having enough weight carrying. How much junk do you need? We had 4 bikes, surfboards, food for three months and 500 litres of water and school books and kids stuff - and the boat was on her lines. It takes very little effort to keep the boat on weight.

I shake my head at videos like these - no balance and all bias.

Rant over

When their Leopard 50 condo burned and sank they brought a McGregor 26 as a stopgap. Need I say more about the priority they give to sailing?

Nevertheless they are right in that everyone has different priorities.

I guess it should also be noted that his wife of mature years is still sailing with him after a decades.