I think it should be mandatory to carry A.i.S on all vessels more than 10 nm offshore. The guys are getting a lot of flight time in over the past 48 hours with still no sight of the boat and 2 men.
You can see they are using the strong NE to there advantage with the grind search.

AIS is pretty useless in this situation. It just sinks with the boat. Epirb on the other hand is excellent and even if the two blokes are in the water and have the EPIRB attached to them and they are also tethered together there is a chance. That water would be damn cold there though!

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Ramona said..
AIS is pretty useless in this situation. It just sinks with the boat. Epirb on the other hand is excellent and even if the two blokes are in the water and have the EPIRB attached to them and they are also tethered together there is a chance. That water would be damn cold there though!

Has the boat sunk? Not useless at all if the boat hasn't sunk the plane would easily see them once in range. I'm currently tracking a yacht on the SW of Kangeroo island. Yes epirb is good but only if someone swiches it on.

They could easily be holed up SW KI with AIS pinging but no mobile and vhf range . With no reason to activate the epirb. I think if this was the case it would save a lot of search resources if ais transponder was onboard and obviously that's why SAR are now using it on aircrafts.

I am not an AIS fan but southace has demonstrated a useful use for it. If you get holed up somewhere due weather people will know where you are without activating an epirb.
I sailed a boat to Southport from Sydney a few years ago. Turned the AIS off about Broken Bay. The only thing on it was the big ships, fishing boats and recreational boats, 99% of what was out there, weren't on it. We could see the big ships.
Coastal it is of marginal use and leads too many to not keep watches properly. Outside the continental shelf off NSW there is so little traffic the chance somebody needed my 34 ft of water was almost non existent.

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MorningBird said..
I am not an AIS fan but southace has demonstrated a useful use for it. If you get holed up somewhere due weather people will know where you are without activating an epirb.
I sailed a boat to Southport from Sydney a few years ago. Turned the AIS off about Broken Bay. The only thing on it was the big ships, fishing boats and recreational boats, 99% of what was out there, weren't on it. We could see the big ships.
Coastal it is of marginal use and leads too many to not keep watches properly. Outside the continental shelf off NSW there is so little traffic the chance somebody needed my 34 ft of water was almost non existent.

AIS is more reliable than vhf radio now today has proved a SAR plane is using it and getting a great fix and will piick up any vhf ais transmitter within a line of sight view. Should be mandatory.

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MorningBird said..
I am not an AIS fan but southace has demonstrated a useful use for it. If you get holed up somewhere due weather people will know where you are without activating an epirb.
I sailed a boat to Southport from Sydney a few years ago. Turned the AIS off about Broken Bay. The only thing on it was the big ships, fishing boats and recreational boats, 99% of what was out there, weren't on it. We could see the big ships.
Coastal it is of marginal use and leads too many to not keep watches properly. Outside the continental shelf off NSW there is so little traffic the chance somebody needed my 34 ft of water was almost non existent.

I disagree with this, AIS, even if its just a receiver, is necessary when coastal cruising.
On all my trips from NSW up into QLD I have used it to monitor large ships in close proximity.

But most importantly the AIS gives you the ships NAME.

You will need this to talk to them, which I have done on occasion as they will not answer to....

BIG SHIP NORTH OF ME
or
SHIP ALL LIT UP

Now don't laugh, but I have heard both of those and others by cruisers trying to contact large ships.

Biggest problem is the fishing trawlers who usually turn their AIS off when they start fishing!

Hope they find those two!

I don't support making anything compulsory unless it is life preserving safety. AIS is a nice to have and sometimes, maybe often, adversely affects safety.
in this case if the boat hasn't sunk there is no emergency.
How did this boat declare an emergency?

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nswsailor said..

MorningBird said..
I am not an AIS fan but southace has demonstrated a useful use for it. If you get holed up somewhere due weather people will know where you are without activating an epirb.
I sailed a boat to Southport from Sydney a few years ago. Turned the AIS off about Broken Bay. The only thing on it was the big ships, fishing boats and recreational boats, 99% of what was out there, weren't on it. We could see the big ships.
Coastal it is of marginal use and leads too many to not keep watches properly. Outside the continental shelf off NSW there is so little traffic the chance somebody needed my 34 ft of water was almost non existent.

I disagree with this, AIS, even if its just a receiver, is necessary when coastal cruising.
On all my trips from NSW up into QLD I have used it to monitor large ships in close proximity.

But most importantly the AIS gives you the ships NAME.

You will need this to talk to them, which I have done on occasion as they will not answer to....

BIG SHIP NORTH OF ME
or
SHIP ALL LIT UP

Now don't laugh, but I have heard both of those and others by cruisers trying to contact large ships.

Biggest problem is the fishing trawlers who usually turn their AIS off when they start fishing!

Hope they find those two!

Once you've seen them there is no need to talk to them. A good watch won't let them out of sight.

Any seriously equipped Bluewater boat will have AIS .If it doesn't, then it ain't seriously equipped

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MorningBird said..
I don't support making anything compulsory unless it is life preserving safety. AIS is a nice to have and sometimes, maybe often, adversely affects safety.
in this case if the boat hasn't sunk there is no emergency.
How did this boat declare an emergency?

AIS is like a big radar the jets that are envolved in the search are checking all the pings and other than that they are blind flying at 200 knots @ 1000 meters. No emergency declared other than family call last Friday night and not called in till yesterday. Family wanting to know where there loved ones are.

I reckon AIS is a good tool to have. It makes you heaps more visible to others around you. For example lets say theres a private yacht heading in your direction about 10 NM away without AIS at night, you do not have AIS either. Neither of you know the other exists (apart from radar, although on a rainy night radar would be not much help). Until you are about 5 NM or under i doubt you will see running lights. This gives you significantly less time to react.

If you both had AIS you would have been watching each other for hours and know Name, Length, Type of vessel, Rego, course and maybe even a photo.

I havent heard about the boat. I will have to look it up now, i Hope everyone is OK.

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Flatty said..
I reckon AIS is a good tool to have. It makes you heaps more visible to others around you. For example lets say theres a private yacht heading in your direction about 10 NM away without AIS at night, you do not have AIS either. Neither of you know the other exists (apart from radar, although on a rainy night radar would be not much help). Until you are about 5 NM or under i doubt you will see running lights. This gives you significantly less time to react.

If you both had AIS you would have been watching each other for hours and know Name, Length, Type of vessel, Rego, course and maybe even a photo.

I havent heard about the boat. I will have to look it up now, i Hope everyone is OK.

It is a good tool to have and is very useful in the right circumstances. But it isn't essential and therefore shouldn't be compulsory.

Either way l hope they turn up soon.

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MorningBird said..

Flatty said..
I reckon AIS is a good tool to have. It makes you heaps more visible to others around you. For example lets say theres a private yacht heading in your direction about 10 NM away without AIS at night, you do not have AIS either. Neither of you know the other exists (apart from radar, although on a rainy night radar would be not much help). Until you are about 5 NM or under i doubt you will see running lights. This gives you significantly less time to react.

If you both had AIS you would have been watching each other for hours and know Name, Length, Type of vessel, Rego, course and maybe even a photo.

I havent heard about the boat. I will have to look it up now, i Hope everyone is OK.

It is a good tool to have and is very useful in the right circumstances. But it isn't essential and therefore shouldn't be compulsory.

The Easly spent 500k on tax payers money today. With no avail,
$300 bucks on ais would have found me strait away holed up in a bay . The SAR would have then called me up on vhf and then reported back to my worried family. What's the right circumstances morning bird?

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Ramona said..
AIS is pretty useless in this situation. It just sinks with the boat. Epirb on the other hand is excellent and even if the two blokes are in the water and have the EPIRB attached to them and they are also tethered together there is a chance. That water would be damn cold there though!

At least it would show last known location.

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Jolene said..
Any seriously equipped Bluewater boat will have AIS .If it doesn't, then it ain't seriously equipped

+1

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Jolene said..
Any seriously equipped Bluewater boat will have AIS .If it doesn't, then it ain't seriously equipped

+1

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southace said..

MorningBird said..

Flatty said..
I reckon AIS is a good tool to have. It makes you heaps more visible to others around you. For example lets say theres a private yacht heading in your direction about 10 NM away without AIS at night, you do not have AIS either. Neither of you know the other exists (apart from radar, although on a rainy night radar would be not much help). Until you are about 5 NM or under i doubt you will see running lights. This gives you significantly less time to react.

If you both had AIS you would have been watching each other for hours and know Name, Length, Type of vessel, Rego, course and maybe even a photo.

I havent heard about the boat. I will have to look it up now, i Hope everyone is OK.

It is a good tool to have and is very useful in the right circumstances. But it isn't essential and therefore shouldn't be compulsory.

The Easly spent 500k on tax payers money today. With no avail,
$300 bucks on ais would have found me strait away holed up in a bay . The SAR would have then called me up on vhf and then reported back to my worried family. What's the right circumstances morning bird?

We spent over $100m looking for MH370 & we knew they were all dead.

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southace said..

MorningBird said..

The Easly spent 500k on tax payers money today. With no avail,
$300 bucks on ais would have found me strait away holed up in a bay . The SAR would have then called me up on vhf and then reported back to my worried family. What's the right circumstances morning bird?

I doubt you can buy a transmitting AIS for $300. That converted fishing cutter would not be worth the cost of a fully functional AIS. EPIRB's are compulsory in most places for boats that venture 3 miles offshore. There is so much that is wrong with this unfortunate situation. First the plan to motor a badly converted fishing cutter from Coffins bay to Goolwa this time of the year with out a decent plan and communications is at best foolhardy. Does the boat even have a decent VHF. The two men were in communications with someone when they reported engine trouble so I would presume mobile phones.
That boat looks familiar to me and like all the cutters of the period are very seaworthy in their original configuration. That cabin and dog box makes it very un seaworthy. Fitting the stabilizing keels like that will just spoil the motion.
No government is ever going to make AIS compulsory.

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Ramona said..

southace said..

MorningBird said..

The Easly spent 500k on tax payers money today. With no avail,
$300 bucks on ais would have found me strait away holed up in a bay . The SAR would have then called me up on vhf and then reported back to my worried family. What's the right circumstances morning bird?

I doubt you can buy a transmitting AIS for $300. That converted fishing cutter would not be worth the cost of a fully functional AIS. EPIRB's are compulsory in most places for boats that venture 3 miles offshore. There is so much that is wrong with this unfortunate situation. First the plan to motor a badly converted fishing cutter from Coffins bay to Goolwa this time of the year with out a decent plan and communications is at best foolhardy. Does the boat even have a decent VHF. The two men were in communications with someone when they reported engine trouble so I would presume mobile phones.
That boat looks familiar to me and like all the cutters of the period are very seaworthy in their original configuration. That cabin and dog box makes it very un seaworthy. Fitting the stabilizing keels like that will just spoil the motion.
No government is ever going to make AIS compulsory.

R
MSQ have it under consideration at present.
Watch this space.
As is mandatory DSC VHF

Just now on the ABC,
Boat was bought last week,
One ( at least ) missing person is experienced with that type of boat ( converted cray ? boat )

Engine/ prop problems as well.

SAR from Melbourne has just rocked up and is starting grid search way south of KI. If the boat didn't sink well that's where I would have thought the would be considering the strong NE we had yesterday.

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southace said..

MorningBird said..

Flatty said..
I reckon AIS is a good tool to have. It makes you heaps more visible to others around you. For example lets say theres a private yacht heading in your direction about 10 NM away without AIS at night, you do not have AIS either. Neither of you know the other exists (apart from radar, although on a rainy night radar would be not much help). Until you are about 5 NM or under i doubt you will see running lights. This gives you significantly less time to react.

If you both had AIS you would have been watching each other for hours and know Name, Length, Type of vessel, Rego, course and maybe even a photo.

I havent heard about the boat. I will have to look it up now, i Hope everyone is OK.

It is a good tool to have and is very useful in the right circumstances. But it isn't essential and therefore shouldn't be compulsory.

The Easly spent 500k on tax payers money today. With no avail,
$300 bucks on ais would have found me strait away holed up in a bay . The SAR would have then called me up on vhf and then reported back to my worried family. What's the right circumstances morning bird?

We just may have to agree to disagree.
I agree that if they had anchored to avoid weather it might have been useful, but if they had a VHF working they could have called up and told people they were safe. If the boat has sunk AIS is sunk with it.
If they had done some passage planning and told people where they were going etc the search may have been unnecessary. Setting off an epirb would have been better than relying on AIS.
My view is that sound planning and safety awareness rather than reliance on such systems is how mariners should operate. AIS is a detection and collision avoidance system, not an emergency system.
There are very many useful items for a yacht to have onboard but only the essential ones are and should be compulsory.

We are dealing with a lost boat and we don't know where it is.

I sailed 200 miles down the (ship infested ) Japanese NE coast.
At all times my wife in Japan, a responsible friend in Dubai and the owner of the marine service company in Japan knew where I was.
My wife and the owner had the coast guard emergency number handy just in case.
The friend in Dubai was in a different time zone so I was being watched 24 hours a day.
No radio, no AIS, no EPIRB.

I switched on the (free) Google map tracking function and gave them the access.
If the people on the missing vessel had done the same, maybe it would have helped the S and R mission a lot.

Ramona. I hope you are right, "No government is ever going to make AIS compulsory."
But somehow I doubt it.

gary

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MorningBird said..

southace said..

MorningBird said..

Flatty said..
I reckon AIS is a good tool to have. It makes you heaps more visible to others around you. For example lets say theres a private yacht heading in your direction about 10 NM away without AIS at night, you do not have AIS either. Neither of you know the other exists (apart from radar, although on a rainy night radar would be not much help). Until you are about 5 NM or under i doubt you will see running lights. This gives you significantly less time to react.

If you both had AIS you would have been watching each other for hours and know Name, Length, Type of vessel, Rego, course and maybe even a photo.

I havent heard about the boat. I will have to look it up now, i Hope everyone is OK.

It is a good tool to have and is very useful in the right circumstances. But it isn't essential and therefore shouldn't be compulsory.

The Easly spent 500k on tax payers money today. With no avail,
$300 bucks on ais would have found me strait away holed up in a bay . The SAR would have then called me up on vhf and then reported back to my worried family. What's the right circumstances morning bird?

We just may have to agree to disagree.
I agree that if they had anchored to avoid weather it might have been useful, but if they had a VHF working they could have called up and told people they were safe. If the boat has sunk AIS is sunk with it.
If they had done some passage planning and told people where they were going etc the search may have been unnecessary. Setting off an epirb would have been better than relying on AIS.
My view is that sound planning and safety awareness rather than reliance on such systems is how mariners should operate. AIS is a detection and collision avoidance system, not an emergency system.
There are very many useful items for a yacht to have onboard but only the essential ones are and should be compulsory.

The SAR jet I'm tracking is checking out all the AIS vessels and obviously making contact with them that's why they have AIS on there search and rescue aircraft now. Other than that they rely on people on the plane looking out the windows. If they had AIS and have only broken down and drifting SARS would have found them by now and saved massive amount of dollars. If the boat had sunk with AIS they still would have got the last location.

theres a lot of black spots in this area where VHF radio is scetchy but with SARS line of site would easy pick up AIS locate the vessel and then make radio contact. Makes sense to me.
By the way it's composery for vessels over a certain tonage to carry AIS so why not make it across the board.

They have been into Adelaide for fuel and now back down south , no real grid patten today.

That's the we think it washed up on the island grid.

It's now let's head back to Melbourne at 1700 grid.

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garymalmgren said..


Ramona. I hope you are right, "No government is ever going to make AIS compulsory."
But somehow I doubt it.

gary

There is not a government anywhere that is going to ask voters to cough up a thousand dollars plus for boats that proceed outside 3nm and expect to get elected.
If it was to become compulsory it would be the same as EPIRBs and the price would stay high. $300 for an EPIRB on the other hand is exceptional value for something that will save your life. AIS is not a life saving apparatus. No one is sitting around watching a screen to see if a contact suddenly disappears.
In the 1990's because I had a Commonwealth fishing license and endorsements plus the state licenses I had to invest in a tracking system so the people in Canberra could see what I was up to 24 hours a day. This bit of kit was made by Furuno and cost me $4400 in 1990's dollars. Shortly after a prawn trawler was lost off the Queensland coast. The operator watched it go off his screen but did not notify search and rescue. The system was there to monitor fishermen. AIS is a similar system.