Lisa Blair has some interesting comments on the technique she uses to heave-to. She has just had to do it a couple of times in 40-50 kts, as she sails back to her dismasting position in the Southern Ocean. She is adamant to do it by gybeing, with a centred and tightly sheeted (deeply-reefed) main and storm jib.

Sorry, I'm not good with linky things, so you'll have to find it yourself!

it's here:

lisablairsailstheworld.com/blog/2017/6/21/large-winter-storm-in-the-southern-ocean

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saintpeter said..
Lisa Blair has some interesting comments on the technique she uses to heave-to. She has just had to do it a couple of times in 40-50 kts, as she sails back to her dismasting position in the Southern Ocean. She is adamant to do it by gybeing, with a centred and tightly sheeted (deeply-reefed) main and storm jib.

Sorry, I'm not good with linky things, so you'll have to find it yourself!

The key words here is deeply reefed mainsail. This would be an impossible task in my yacht with a mainsail at full hoist and say 15 knots of wind. Gybing with a third reef and storm jib makes sense to hove to if the boat is reluctant to tack through the wind. This is going to be very dependent on the yacht type. I'm sure if I eased the mainsail in 15 knots of wind and gybed leaving the headsail sheeted in it would quickly assume the heaved to position but it would be very exciting! The whole idea of heaving to is to reduce the excitement!

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Ramona said..

saintpeter said..
Lisa Blair has some interesting comments on the technique she uses to heave-to. She has just had to do it a couple of times in 40-50 kts, as she sails back to her dismasting position in the Southern Ocean. She is adamant to do it by gybeing, with a centred and tightly sheeted (deeply-reefed) main and storm jib.

Sorry, I'm not good with linky things, so you'll have to find it yourself!

The key words here is deeply reefed mainsail. This would be an impossible task in my yacht with a mainsail at full hoist and say 15 knots of wind. Gybing with a third reef and storm jib makes sense to hove to if the boat is reluctant to tack through the wind. This is going to be very dependent on the yacht type. I'm sure if I eased the mainsail in 15 knots of wind and gybed leaving the headsail sheeted in it would quickly assume the heaved to position but it would be very exciting! The whole idea of heaving to is to reduce the excitement!

This is back to the old issue of sail balance, (see the thread on ketch v sloop). Reefed main and storm jib, especially if set on forestay, and the centre of effort of the sails has moved forward. In this case it may well be imposible to tack, and gybing becomes the only option.

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MorningBird said..

samsturdy said..
Ah, thanks Fisho. I read the artical but your simple explanation nailed it for me. I should have eased
the headsail a bit. It was probably due to me trying to sail too close to the wind and I had everything
pulled in tight. Thanks mate. Love this forum.

More likely you needed to bring the main in harder. Or both. The main will push the head up into the wind, the headsail will push it away. If you are out of balance i.e. the tiller is way off centre, you need to adjust the sails to counteract the helm. Most yachts have a little bit of weather helm, i.e. the boat is trying to come up into the wind. This is desireable as it means the boat will head to wind and stall if it all gets too much. Lee helm means it will bear away and gybe if left to itself.

Given time to get experience, if you have a reasonable understanding of physics, it will become obvious what is happening to the boat.

MB, I have furling headsail and my boat being a fin keeler is headsail driven, so would an option for me
to balance the boat be to reduce the headsail area by furling it in a touch ??.

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samsturdy said..

MorningBird said..

samsturdy said..
Ah, thanks Fisho. I read the artical but your simple explanation nailed it for me. I should have eased
the headsail a bit. It was probably due to me trying to sail too close to the wind and I had everything
pulled in tight. Thanks mate. Love this forum.

More likely you needed to bring the main in harder. Or both. The main will push the head up into the wind, the headsail will push it away. If you are out of balance i.e. the tiller is way off centre, you need to adjust the sails to counteract the helm. Most yachts have a little bit of weather helm, i.e. the boat is trying to come up into the wind. This is desireable as it means the boat will head to wind and stall if it all gets too much. Lee helm means it will bear away and gybe if left to itself.

Given time to get experience, if you have a reasonable understanding of physics, it will become obvious what is happening to the boat.

MB, I have furling headsail and my boat being a fin keeler is headsail driven, so would an option for me
to balance the boat be to reduce the headsail area by furling it in a touch ??.

Yes. It sounds like rig balance is causing you some issues.

I am assuming you aren't using a heavily furled heady with a full main, or a double reefed main with a No1 heady. You can't have the sails severely out of whack and expect to trim the boat.

If she is trying to bear away you have too much pressure forward and/or not enough aft.

Reduce pressure forward - furl the heady in to make it smaller or ease the heady sheet to spill more wind out of it.

Increase pressure aft - shake out a reef, sheet your main in tighter or bring the traveller up.

Usually a combination of both will get the best outcome.

If she is trying to come up into the wind, the main is trying to bring the boat up and the heady doesn't have enough pressure in it to counter it. Reef the main, ease the main sheet or let the traveller down. Ease out more head sail and/or tighten the heady sheet.

I'm not a boat design expert by any means but being a fin keel boat isn't the reason a boat is headsail driven. MB is a 3/4 keel boat, a pretty long keel compared to more modern yachts, and is most definitely headsail powered. My main is good for boat balance, not speed.

Thanks MB. I can understand the physics of it now. A while ago I tried sailing on mainsail
only, the boat didn't move an inch, so it seems, like you, my mainsail is more for balance.

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samsturdy said..
Thanks MB. I can understand the physics of it now. A while ago I tried sailing on mainsail
only, the boat didn't move an inch, so it seems, like you, my mainsail is more for balance.

Head sail or mainsail driven is more to do with the rig sam.
Fractional are mainsail while masthead are headsail driven.
On a headsail driven you usually reef the main before changing or reefing headsail.

Thanks twoD. I'm getting the hang of the dynamics now. I thought 'balance' was more to do with
the angle of heel, but now I'm beginning to understand the relationship between the power fore or
aft of the mast and the effect it has on the helm.
Even though I sail in Pittwater it's still important to have the boat sailing properly. If I'm on Port tack
with a lot of lee helm and I REALLY need to turn to Port to avoid a situation it's almost impossible to
turn quickly because there's just not enough rudder there.

if you have the sails trimmed right, the rudder will not need to do much work. if the rudder is working hard, it generates a lot of drag, and affects manoeuvreability as you noted above...

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samsturdy said..
Thanks twoD. I'm getting the hang of the dynamics now. I thought 'balance' was more to do with
the angle of heel, but now I'm beginning to understand the relationship between the power fore or
aft of the mast and the effect it has on the helm.
Even though I sail in Pittwater it's still important to have the boat sailing properly. If I'm on Port tack
with a lot of lee helm and I REALLY need to turn to Port to avoid a situation it's almost impossible to
turn quickly because there's just not enough rudder there.

Lee helm in this case sounds like not enough mast rake. In about 10-12 knots wind over the deck you need weather helm. Hang a weight off your main halyard and check what rake you have, should be about 10 inches or so. Compare with other vessels the same type.

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Ramona said..
I'm sure if I eased the mainsail in 15 knots of wind and gybed leaving the headsail sheeted in it would quickly assume the heaved to position but it would be very exciting! The whole idea of heaving to is to reduce the excitement!

It would be less exciting if you kept the mainsail sheeted in hard and just let the sail flick through the gybe.

You guys still don't believe me that gybing to the hove to is the quickest, simplest and least dramatic method.

Try it in 5 knots of breeze and then 10, then 15, then 20 and upwards. If you are pointing and over canvassed and do it, you might break something.

Heaving to is not what you do for shortening sail. You luff to do that.

Heaving to is what you do to stop the boat, stabilize it by lashing the helm, ease the motion, let the boat look after itself so you can go do something else like make a repair, lunch, coffee, tea, sandwich, talk on the radio, have a crap or anything else.

You are right Cisco - I don't believe you, not on the boats I have sailed. I can stop a Farr 1104 from even bearing away onto a reach in 15 if I don't ease sheet. Same in an Adams 13 or Adams 10. Any dinghy will have you in the water. Even my cat will fight you. Certainly anything sporty will not let you use that technique. It's something special to your boat.

In 15 tws my Mottle would not bare away without easing the main.

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twodogs1969 said..
In 15 tws my Mottle would not bare away without easing the main.

I tried it yesterday and there is no way I could bear away!

SamS, it's quite possible you doing everything right, but your boat wouldn't tack.
/ under particular set of sails and wind conditions /
I remember long time ago, I had Duncanson 29 , when slightly overpowered , it was no way
that would tack, unles reducing sails or just gybe.
Accosionaly I have similar problem, what I do is, slightly easy sails to pick up speed, crank up sails
and sharp rudder over, half way through tack rudder straight to reduce drag, in light wind second
full rudder for 5 sec. ones you loose the speed boat never tack.

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Ramona said..

twodogs1969 said..
In 15 tws my Mottle would not bare away without easing the main.

I tried it yesterday and there is no way I could bear away!

Exactly last weekend granted it was blowing 30knts with 2-3 meter seas. We could not bare away without easing the main.

I guess it works for some boats but not others. I know it works on a Peterson 42 ft IOR 2 tonner called Envy II.
I have not tried it yet on my current yacht but I will do when I have her back in the water and sailing again.

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cisco said..
I guess it works for some boats but not others. I know it works on a Peterson 42 ft IOR 2 tonner called Envy II.
I have not tried it yet on my current yacht but I will do when I have her back in the water and sailing again.

If you are being hammered the boat will be heeled hard to leeward and the centre of effort or the sails way out to leeward, so really hard to stop the boat trying to head up. You have got to get the boat back on her feet by reducing sail before she will bear away. Usually when things are like that she will try to head up, but in those sort of winds might not go through. You got to get sail off to give her a chance.

Envy II was a "Phase IV" Peterson with a very small main and a fuller stern than the "pintails" that Peterson had on his earlier boats. That combination of rig and hull shape is fairly unusual and it's not surprising that she could bear away in a way that most boats can't. The small main also makes the gybe less of an issue.

Yes Chris 249. The main had quite a high aspect ratio and she is very much a head sail powered yacht and as I recall the mast is located directly above the front of the keel as in this photo of my Lotus 9.2.
The main alone on Envy II would not drive the boat. She needs at least a handkerchief of sail up front to get any drive.

We were heading south into Blowin' Bowen one night when it was blowing, motor sailing with reefed main and hardly making progress in the diabolical tides there. The genoa was on a Reefurl and I had to roll out about 4 to 6 feet of it to get some power. It looked like a Woolies shopping bag hanging off the forestay but it gave us the power we needed.

The previous owner of Second Wind who only used her for recreational sailing on Lake Macquarie said he never used the main, only the genoa on the furler. For this reason and the mast location I am expecting her to behave very similarly to Envy II.

When I had Envy a guy said to me that of the many Peterson IOR 2 tonners in Australia, there would not be two that were identical. He said Peterson was always tweaking the design, adding a bump here, taking out a hollow there to gain a fraction of a knot.

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cisco said..
I guess it works for some boats but not others. I know it works on a Peterson 42 ft IOR 2 tonner called Envy II.
I have not tried it yet on my current yacht but I will do when I have her back in the water and sailing again.

Here is a nice Peterson that's just come on the market. Mainsail driven and probably a narrow spade rudder that would stall out if you tried to bear off with the main sheeted in hard.

http://yachthub.com/list/yachts-for-sale/used/sail-monohulls/peterson-37-club-racer/204424

Phew!! That is a lot of boat for $30,000. It may be "just listed" with Hansen but I have seen it advertised before.

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Ramona said..

cisco said..
I guess it works for some boats but not others. I know it works on a Peterson 42 ft IOR 2 tonner called Envy II.
I have not tried it yet on my current yacht but I will do when I have her back in the water and sailing again.

Here is a nice Peterson that's just come on the market. Mainsail driven and probably a narrow spade rudder that would stall out if you tried to bear off with the main sheeted in hard.

http://yachthub.com/list/yachts-for-sale/used/sail-monohulls/peterson-37-club-racer/204424

Who wants a timber hull??

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MorningBird said..

Ramona said..

cisco said..
I guess it works for some boats but not others. I know it works on a Peterson 42 ft IOR 2 tonner called Envy II.
I have not tried it yet on my current yacht but I will do when I have her back in the water and sailing again.

Here is a nice Peterson that's just come on the market. Mainsail driven and probably a narrow spade rudder that would stall out if you tried to bear off with the main sheeted in hard.

http://yachthub.com/list/yachts-for-sale/used/sail-monohulls/peterson-37-club-racer/204424

Who wants a timber hull??

Triple (quad even? as per ad) diagonal... It'll last much longer than all those core IOR raceboats.

What a great twighlighter and a bit of yachting history.

It'd be like driving to Bathurst in a Torana. It has cred.

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MorningBird said..

Ramona said..

cisco said..
I guess it works for some boats but not others. I know it works on a Peterson 42 ft IOR 2 tonner called Envy II.
I have not tried it yet on my current yacht but I will do when I have her back in the water and sailing again.

Here is a nice Peterson that's just come on the market. Mainsail driven and probably a narrow spade rudder that would stall out if you tried to bear off with the main sheeted in hard.

http://yachthub.com/list/yachts-for-sale/used/sail-monohulls/peterson-37-club-racer/204424

Who wants a timber hull??

We call them composite and I would own one. There is actually a better one for sale that's better value but I'm not allowed to buy it!

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cisco said..
Yes Chris 249. The main had quite a high aspect ratio and she is very much a head sail powered yacht and as I recall the mast is located directly above the front of the keel as in this photo of my Lotus 9.2.
The main alone on Envy II would not drive the boat. She needs at least a handkerchief of sail up front to get any drive.

We were heading south into Blowin' Bowen one night when it was blowing, motor sailing with reefed main and hardly making progress in the diabolical tides there. The genoa was on a Reefurl and I had to roll out about 4 to 6 feet of it to get some power. It looked like a Woolies shopping bag hanging off the forestay but it gave us the power we needed.

The previous owner of Second Wind who only used her for recreational sailing on Lake Macquarie said he never used the main, only the genoa on the furler. For this reason and the mast location I am expecting her to behave very similarly to Envy II.

When I had Envy a guy said to me that of the many Peterson IOR 2 tonners in Australia, there would not be two that were identical. He said Peterson was always tweaking the design, adding a bump here, taking out a hollow there to gain a fraction of a knot.

Sorry, I forgot you actually owned Envy. I always really liked that Phase IV Peterson style of boat.

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Chris 249 said..
Sorry, I forgot you actually owned Envy. I always really liked that Phase IV Peterson style of boat.

She is an amazing yacht. Built to survey by Mal Hewitt with some assistance from Reg Brost at the old Evans Deakin dry dock at Kangaroo Point before it got turned into the trendiest apartment complex in Brisbane. I actually saw her under construction, little realizing that I would own her one day.

Built to survey with 60 x 60 x 6 mm T frames 400 mm apart and I believe 6mm skin, she is pretty much bullet proof. Mal Hewitt drove her onto Bramston Reef near Bowen at 8 knots and she just bounced off according to someone who was there. (Maurie Meecham)

I could rave on about her for hours and she has a very colourful history. I bought her right, loved her to bits for six years and sold her right.

Now called Lady Katherine by the bloke I sold her to after his daughter, but still on the Australian Register of Ships as Envy II, the last I heard of her was from a for sale link that Ramona posted of her for sale in Townsville.

When I bought her, instead of trying to make money chartering I should have sailed her around the world like the guy that bought Big Schott did. I am beyond it now.
Cheers.