Rubber??
Probably polyurethane to keep water out.
Let's add 1.5kg of Sikaflex to keep out 60gms of water. Genius.

I have very little experience, other than 60 years of living, 25+ years of kiteflying, 18 yrs kitesurfing, friendship with Adrian Roper for 15 years (Axis and Underground designer), supporting kite racing in Australia for around 6 years, sponsoring some top riders, mixing with my local foilers regularly.
I agree that if you are a bit weak and soft then carrying stuff is hard. Travelling, yeah maybe, but just buy some extra luggage allowance its cheap these days.

The point that I should have really emphasised is the price, this SS product will open up the sport for a lot more people, the mast length options are cheap (and reduce weight), and the shorter masts definitely shorten the learning curve. When people learn easy the sport will grow, when people acquire great skills they can argue the merits (or not) of weight. There is definitely a link between lower weight and higher cost. Foils are awkward to walk around with, avoid it.

This product should not be dismissed simply because its a bit heavier than some other brands, or even significantly heavier then the carbon, fixed length mast models. The fact is that once its in the water and being ridden the weight makes little difference to a freerider. Some may eventually want to go faster, and there are a gazillion options out there for them when they get to that stage.

Steve, you simply need to try it for yourself before believing the print in the brochure.
Weight is a factor. And having a foil over 4kg is so far out of the industry standard it's laughable.
Shorter masts are relatively common and not new. Plus considering the learning curve, are of little use to anyone but a school.
In fact 70cm is probably the bare minimum with only any use is shallow water.
The first beginner rises have you climbing quite rapidly till foil ventilates, this is what causes the nose dive. So having a reasonable length gives you time to control the rise. Short masts just mean you pogo without maybe crashing but without learning control IMHO.
Probably better to take wing off at start to get used to keeping board down.
Heavy weight equals enertia and resistance to acceleration and turning and jumping and getting rig into position in water and hurts more when hitting you.
This SS foil is nearly 1 and a half times industry standard. My rig hurts, I'd hate it to hurt 1.5 times more. IMHO

All reports are that the Flight School concept is a very good one. Or you could what Cab did and up just make it really tough for the board to foil

Have YOU ridden it?

...anyway to get the PU out then?

Well Tony I can only say that KP sold a lot of laughably heavy lower priced foils and the owners seem to be having fun on them. A few have outgrown them and moved on to predominantly race foils (because of the used market). The foils are still around and getting used by other beginners though.
I do intend to try the short masts, and I don't believe the guys that developed the product and have used it extensively are all liars, I have not even read the brochure, yet.
And SS nor me have made any claims they invented short masts, but I do believe they make learning for most people faster and easier, and agree that they will be a useful addition to schools wanting to offer more than just learn to kite lessons.
I think the problem for you is that you are experienced and have the basics down and don't seem to want to accept that people entering the sport now have the option to economically learn on shorter masts? Taking the wing off is a silly suggestion, people need to feel the wing and keep the board on or close to the water in the early stages of learning. The shorter masts definitely help keep the board down, without big and painful crashes, as does the moveable track mount, by moving the mast towards the back of the board.
Agree that weight is proportional to inertia, however for most freeriders, especially those learning its really not an issue, acceleration and turning, again casual freeriders really won't be held back at all by the weight of the rig. Basically they will learn to adapt to what they have and can AFFORD, and they will still have a ton of fun, and thats what its all about for well over 80% of people that kite and want to foil IMHO.

My Liquid Force board is 5.7 kg and the foil in just over 3.8 kg giving a total of 9.5 kg.

For walking from the rigging area to the beach the weight is not a problem. Even for a walk of shame up the beach the weight is not a problem. You just have to make sure it is properly tucked under your arm and balanced.

If I had to do a couple of km walk back I would want to rig some kind of sling or even do a pack down of the foil. I haven't really pursued this because we've been able to get back to the start when the wind drops out, even though fast, light wind, downwind riding is kind of technical on a foil.

In terms of a luxury experience, light weight really matters. It's just so much more pleasant and comfortable if you can pick you your gear and walk effortlessly with it. There already exists a water sport with heavy, expensive gear. It's called windsurfing.
The real attraction of alloy foils is they are generally cheap. When you're learning it is almost certain you are going to bounce your foil off a rock. That would be heart breaking on your $2800 full carbon work or art (closer to $4400 including the board). Not so traumatic on a $1500, second hand alloy kit, including board.

The negatives of alloy in real world use is the mast fills with water, and galvanic corrosion. Both are more a nuisance than a real problem, but a properly made carbon kit suffers from none of those problems. Plugging the mast with silicone had not been a great solution to leakage in my experience.

The other issue is the low aspect wings attached to most alloy foils. They seem to be only good for very slow riding. This is great when you are a learner. Foil face plants (foil bombs) hurt. A lot! I have very little experience of high aspect foils (that will change soon). I am hoping I will be riding much faster with more stability.

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Kamikuza said...
All reports are that the Flight School concept is a very good one. Or you could what Cab did and up just make it really tough for the board to foil

Have YOU ridden it?

...anyway to get the PU out then?

Maybe I showing a little frustration that all the major brands, who should have the resources to really contribute to foiling development, have chosen to contribute nothing but either sub standard products or brand engineer products from existing builders and by price force them to produce a product that is sub standard.
Yes you can use them and even have some fun.
But I do believe the kiting consumer deserves better than what they are coming up with.
IMHO

I have owned and ridden the both the SS Hoverglide and the LF Fish Foil.

They are both heaps of fun and pretty tough.

The SS Hoverglide doesn't piss salt water into your car after a session (big tick).
The SS Hoverglide is steadier in the water than the LF.

Weight is not great in both, but they can be easily carried over the shoulder out of the water or under the arm in the water. No big deal.

But .... I would love to try a carbon freeride to now to appreciate the difference from the aluminium.

Hi guys

hijacking the thread a little but it's going in a direction that's interesting to me....

what would be the pro's and con's of an alloy foil ? Am seriously considering one for light wind windsurfing.

cheers

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seanhogan said...
Hi guys

hijacking the thread a little but it's going in a direction that's interesting to me....

what would be the pro's and con's of an alloy foil ? Am seriously considering one for light wind windsurfing.

cheers

I'm about to find out and have a thread about it in the windsurf section

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TerryMcTool said..
I have very little experience, other than 60 years of living, 25+ years of kiteflying, 18 yrs kitesurfing, friendship with Adrian Roper for 15 years (Axis and Underground designer), supporting kite racing in Australia for around 6 years, sponsoring some top riders, mixing with my local foilers regularly.
I agree that if you are a bit weak and soft then carrying stuff is hard. Travelling, yeah maybe, but just buy some extra luggage allowance its cheap these days.

The point that I should have really emphasised is the price, this SS product will open up the sport for a lot more people, the mast length options are cheap (and reduce weight), and the shorter masts definitely shorten the learning curve. When people learn easy the sport will grow, when people acquire great skills they can argue the merits (or not) of weight. There is definitely a link between lower weight and higher cost. Foils are awkward to walk around with, avoid it.

This product should not be dismissed simply because its a bit heavier than some other brands, or even significantly heavier then the carbon, fixed length mast models. The fact is that once its in the water and being ridden the weight makes little difference to a freerider. Some may eventually want to go faster, and there are a gazillion options out there for them when they get to that stage.

So pretty much Zero experience on using the equipment yourself..... yeah right!

In fact I can bet you that next year Slingshot will be offering an alloy foil under 4kg and you will be the first to tell the beginners they should go for a lighter rig.

There is very little link between weight and price however there is one between the material utilised.

Weight matters and if you have the choice of a better product for the same price then it is a no brainer to go for the lighter one. But you would know that only if you've tried both which I gather you haven't.

As I mentioned before, Alpine alloy is around 3kg and Zeeko 3.8kg. Both of them are excellent for freeriding and have already a choice of different wings to make it evolve. Both are also affordable which is as you pointed out, contributing to help the sport grow.





At least Mark Shinn was a bit smarter when choosing what foil company to team up with.... I gather the margin on the SS must be way greater than on the Shinn.

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Livit said..

There is very little link between weight and price however there is one between the material utilised.

If there is very little link, why are the higher ones more expensive?

EDIT: well not by much, now the Brexit is messing everything up :o Hmm . . .

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RAL INN said..

Kamikuza said...
All reports are that the Flight School concept is a very good one. Or you could what Cab did and up just make it really tough for the board to foil

Have YOU ridden it?

...anyway to get the PU out then?

Maybe I showing a little frustration that all the major brands, who should have the resources to really contribute to foiling development, have chosen to contribute nothing but either sub standard products or brand engineer products from existing builders and by price force them to produce a product that is sub standard.
Yes you can use them and even have some fun.
But I do believe the kiting consumer deserves better than what they are coming up with.
IMHO

Not really surprised they're being conservative, but the Naish and Cab offerings are rather disappointing. Apart from the weight, the SS aluminum foil looks like a good design . . .

Had to hump a soggy, sandy S3 21 over the shoulders and the foil under the arm for just 500m. By far the worst of the two was the kite.

My frustration with SS is that even though they have sourced from a brand with some cred. The end result is heavy for absolutely no logical reason. Everyone else can keep an Alloy foil under 4kg. It just smacks of lazy engineering.

In regards to the question of to or not to go fast. There are a large number of foils already in the affordable bracket that are beginner friendly that lift early and are slippery enough to not hold you back when the urge takes hold.
It might just be that time you have a TT'er ahead on the east bank at Sandy Point, obviously going for a speedy run. You then realise you are catching, then the urge takes over as you power up to overtake while holding way more upwind angle.

Best explanation so far I've heard on speed is ability to glide well...which I can only assume that that is a result of higher speed :D which begs the question.

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Kamikuza said...
Best explanation so far I've heard on speed is ability to glide well...which I can only assume that that is a result of higher speed :D which begs the question.

The hoverglide has some serious glide capability and it is definitely not a fast foil.

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bigtone667 said..

Kamikuza said...
Best explanation so far I've heard on speed is ability to glide well...which I can only assume that that is a result of higher speed :D which begs the question.

The hoverglide has some serious glide capability and it is definitely not a fast foil.

That's the question that was begged could a slow foil glide well? If yes, then speed is again related to the category of "nice".

Hoping to get a ride on one this summer, but I do NOT want an SS board with the rails. Considering milling out the holes to take the LF boards . . .

Weight matters if you have to carry it, or it hits you.

Speed matters if you're slow and everybody else is blasting past at double your speed ... with greater stability.

It shouldn't cost much more to make good stuff. In the 70's Ibanez sold heaps of cheap guitars. They worked out they had a skilled workforce and that they were just as capable of churning out good stuff, so they did.

I had one of those Ibanez lawsuit LP guitars for a bit. Wish I still had it.
Edit; wait no I don't it made way for my sweet little Gretsch.

BTW Gorgo? How long did it take for you to start thinking to upgrade your foil.

About 3 months. Once I was up and foiling and gybing reliably I started looking around for what follows. It was always my intention to upgrade the Liquid Force once I had worked out that I could ride a foil, and whether it was something I really wanted to do.

People who don't foil have no idea how addictive it is.

The main reason to go away from an aluminium foil is more to do with the practicalities of daily use. Hollow masts fill with water and have to be emptied before putting in the car (sealing with silicone was not satisfactory). Galvanic corrosion is always a niggling worry even though it hasn't proved to be much of a problem.

I have always believed that the main hold back for Kiters wanting to try Hydrofoiling was wondering wether or not they would actually like it. And so far anyone with a hydrofoil is very reluctant to just let a newbie loose on their pride and joy. Plus a simple have a go with foiling means nothing considering what you go through to finally get going and feel the stoke.
The Alloy foils have halved the financial gap, but wether it's 500, 1000, or 1500 it still doesn't satisfy that "will I like it" question.
We have our foil set up to let Kiters have a go, and those that have, and then come back for a second go have only just started to get to the "this won't beat me" stage.

It is funny to watch and listen and remember those same descriptive verbs etc. come floating across the water

The general consensus (of a very small sample size) is, we are vey glad we started on a cheap and cheerful foil. It has been great fun. We would have been heart broken if we smashed our expensive new foils into the reef.

Apart from the price, carbon foils are truly beautiful objects. They look like sculptures.

While we're on it, there's a good strapless surfboard rider at our local beach. When we were just getting through the total kook foil rider stage, he was ripping on his Cabrinha Double Agent. Lots of carving foil gybes in the wave zone. It's a perfectly good setup for its intended purpose. It is outrageously expensive for what it is (but that's not unusual for Cabrinha gear).

So Steve ordered a Carbon Zeeko for himself, then changed his mind (thanks!) So now we have one in the shop, thought i'd chuck a new El Stubbo on it and turns out to be a pretty sweet looking combo!

I'm still on my training wheels so this thing scares me just looking at it, my god the trailing edges on the mast and wings are sharp... However if it's still here come spring, I may be tempted to give it a whirl.

Foil on its own is about 3.4kg, all up with board and foil plate approx 8.2kg and RRP of **cough** $4098 **cough**

Wow, high price. In Europe I picked up a Moses Fluente carbon foil, T40 board, board bag and shipping for 1600 euro = 2380 Aust. Dollars.

Haven't got it yet, let's see if I smash it on the rocks.

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TomW059 said...
Wow, high price. In Europe I picked up a Moses Fluente carbon foil, T40 board, board bag and shipping for 1600 euro = 2380 Aust. Dollars.

Haven't got it yet, let's see if I smash it on the rocks.

Won't be long Tom, I hear famous Frank will ship them on July 16.

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Gorgo said..
Weight matters if you have to carry it, or it hits you.

Speed matters if you're slow and everybody else is blasting past at double your speed ... with greater stability.

It shouldn't cost much more to make good stuff. In the 70's Ibanez sold heaps of cheap guitars. They worked out they had a skilled workforce and that they were just as capable of churning out good stuff, so they did.

Only if you're a sissy.

You'd hate kiting with me then, cos I seem to go faster than everyone else without intending too. Don't hear them complaining about it stability I am interested in though...

They also sold millions. Economies of scale and all that...

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Gorgo said..

It shouldn't cost much more to make good stuff. In the 70's Ibanez sold heaps of cheap guitars. They worked out they had a skilled workforce and that they were just as capable of churning out good stuff, so they did.

It depends on your definition of good. Experience shows that anything of exceptional quality is never 'churned out'

I had my first session on one of these today.



It's got to be the best value available in Australia and NZ. The quality and performance is excellent. The foil is carbon, the mast carbon with a foam core. The board is EPS. The web site is full of detail on what everything is. The complete kit weighs 6.5kg. You can get a bag that's custom made for the board and foil protectors.

Check out the product available. The prices are NZ$. Shipping to Australia you deduct the 15% NZ GST. You might have to add in the 10% Australian GST depending on what you buy.

www.jshapes.com/collections/all

Certainly looks the goods....although it doesn't look like the wings are interchangeable.
How was the session? First impressions?

Build quality is overall fantastic. The ends of the mast where they insert into the tuttle boxes look a little agricultural but they work fine. Beautifully light.

The fuselage and wings are one piece so you can't swap in other wings. The wings are much higher aspect than the Liquid Force, but a bit lower than the full race wings others are using.

The board bag is also really high quality. It's very nice to have a custom fit bag that just fits perfectly.

Assembly and disassembly is quick and easy, although there is a knack to how you get the ends in an out of the tuttle boxes. You get things on the right angle and use the leverage of the mast and it all just happens. The 4 bolts are just to lock things in place, all the strength comes from the tapering of the tuttle boxes.

The first 30 seconds were bunny hops but once you get a little speed over the wings it comes up and is rock solid. Amazingly solid in fact. Really good at speed downwind. Front wing ventilation is almost non-existent.

It feels fast, but my GPS says I'm not going all that much faster yet. I need to get a session in decent winds before I know for sure.

Still working on gybes. I found gybing the Liquid Force quite easy but I am back to square one on this foil.