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Paradox said..
Not a chance at 60kg. Complete lie. This is a 5"5" 60kg female.

Does Whisper charge by the hour?

I thought I'd see where you were going with all this.
We'd both said that "integrating trans-people in to society better is complex issue."

And you claimed that " I have no issue with trans people and empathise with thier struggles."

So, i thought maybe there'd be an actual reasonable discussion that wouldn't end with "certain people try to spread fear and spruik worst case scenarios before resorting to memes and ridicule" as I stated earlier as the common trend I've seen

And while you haven't got to the memes yet, you've managed to tick all the other boxes.

So I'll just finish with this.

If you really believe that someone else's pronouns can be offensive to you?, I think maybe you should re-evaluate a lot of things.

Clearly it's a nasty thing to feel you're stuck in the wrong body.

But would it be acceptable to promote the research of a cure?

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Pcdefender said..
It goes without saying there are only two genders.

'When I transitioned at 69, I thought I'd die never knowing "true love" - I was wrong' (msn.com)

Watch from 0:26 to 3:13 and then give us your opinion,

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Pcdefender said..
It goes without saying there are only two genders.

Incorrect. You are confusing gender with sex, they are not the same.
WHO definition: "Gender refers to the characteristics of women, men, girls and boys that are socially constructed. This includes norms, behaviours and roles associated with being a woman, man, girl or boy, as well as relationships with each other. As a social construct, gender varies from society to society and can change over time."

SEX is dichotomous, with sex determination in the fertilized zygote stemming from unequal expression of sex chromosomal genes... males are organisms that produce small, mobile gametes (sperm); while females are organisms that produce large and generally immobile gametes (ova or eggs)."

You can educate yourself further here :www.who.int/health-topics/gender#tab=tab_1

Windsurfers = 70 yr old trannys

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fangman said..

Incorrect. You are confusing gender with sex, they are not the same.
WHO definition: "Gender refers to the characteristics of women, men, girls and boys that are socially constructed. This includes norms, behaviours and roles associated with being a woman, man, girl or boy, as well as relationships with each other. As a social construct, gender varies from society to society and can change over time."

SEX is dichotomous, with sex determination in the fertilized zygote stemming from unequal expression of sex chromosomal genes... males are organisms that produce small, mobile gametes (sperm); while females are organisms that produce large and generally immobile gametes (ova or eggs)."

You can educate yourself further here :www.who.int/health-topics/gender#tab=tab_1

You and your facts and information... you're confusing everyone.

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D3 said..
If you really believe that someone else's pronouns can be offensive to you?, I think maybe you should re-evaluate a lot of things.

This really highlights you are simply not listening to what I am saying. or are simply ignoring it.

I have never said someone's pronouns can be offensive to me. Never, not once. You are getting offended at things that do not exist.

What I do not agree with is someone forcing me by law, or employment condition or other means with punative enforcement to use someones pronouns that only they themselves may have made up that morning depending on how they feel. I do not agree that anyone has the right to force or bully them into using made up speech.

If you want me to use a pronoun you are comfortable with, then you have to convince me to do that in the normal social way, via engaging in polite behaviour that encourages mutual respect and consideration. Do that and I will call you anything you want.

Can you elaborate how I am "spreading fear and spruiking worst case scenarios"? I have discussed nothing but actual factual real life cases and issues. Or are you suggesting we ingore real things because they might cause fear? Maybe censor any mention of them?

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fangman said..

Incorrect. You are confusing gender with sex, they are not the same.
WHO definition: "Gender refers to the characteristics of women, men, girls and boys that are socially constructed. This includes norms, behaviours and roles associated with being a woman, man, girl or boy, as well as relationships with each other. As a social construct, gender varies from society to society and can change over time."

SEX is dichotomous, with sex determination in the fertilized zygote stemming from unequal expression of sex chromosomal genes... males are organisms that produce small, mobile gametes (sperm); while females are organisms that produce large and generally immobile gametes (ova or eggs)."

You can educate yourself further here :www.who.int/health-topics/gender#tab=tab_1

Much of this comes to definitions and the co-opting and changing of definitions without any real mandate to do so.

Specifically most people are ok with the recent morphing of the term gender to be a psycological construct and can be fluid irrespective of sex. It wasn't so much previously but now it is being used as a very loose term. Thats ok, we move with the times. There has always been effenimante men and tomboy girls. Often they fell into the Homosexual category, but not always. No one cared before and no one cares now as far as that goes.

What people are pushing back hard against is the co-opting of the terms Man, Woman, Boy and Girl. These are not fluid and those that have views on what they identify as are not particually happy with the terms being co-opted. Man-Male, Woman-Female is a clear distinction relating to sex.

Men have XY cromosones and have testies. Women have XX chromosones and uteruses. At least at birth. Removing these surgically does not change your sex. It is a very clear definition that apart from some very specific abnormalities covers the human race and most of the animal kingdom well.

There is a large percentage of women out there who are not ok with any male who wants to claim the title. Biological women go through a heap of stuff that they feels give them the right to claim that word exclusively and no-one with an XY is welcome to it. I agree with them.

Men cannot have babies. Trans men can. Women menstrate and have babies, Trans women cannot. That is the meaning of the term - trans, changed or different.

Again the issue is not that trans people do not exist, or deserve respect and acknowledgement it is about the fact they are Male or Female irrespective of how they identify and do not have a mandate to simply expect others to accept thier claim at the point of a gun.

A biological male who identifies as a woman is not a woman. To test that, tell me what he identifies as without using the term woman.

Find another term to use and everyone will be fine with that. But you can't claim rights when they tread all over the rights of others. Maybe that isn't fair, but no one said life should be either fair or easy for anyone.

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Paradox said..

Much of this comes to definitions and the co-opting and changing of definitions without any real mandate to do so.

This is not new. My 1990 Webster's dictionary defines grammatical" Gender" as "the classification of nouns according to sex (actual or attributed)".

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Paradox said..

fangman said..

Incorrect. You are confusing gender with sex, they are not the same.
WHO definition: "Gender refers to the characteristics of women, men, girls and boys that are socially constructed. This includes norms, behaviours and roles associated with being a woman, man, girl or boy, as well as relationships with each other. As a social construct, gender varies from society to society and can change over time."

SEX is dichotomous, with sex determination in the fertilized zygote stemming from unequal expression of sex chromosomal genes... males are organisms that produce small, mobile gametes (sperm); while females are organisms that produce large and generally immobile gametes (ova or eggs)."

You can educate yourself further here :www.who.int/health-topics/gender#tab=tab_1

Much of this comes to definitions and the co-opting and changing of definitions without any real mandate to do so.

Specifically most people are ok with the recent morphing of the term gender to be a psycological construct and can be fluid irrespective of sex. It wasn't so much previously but now it is being used as a very loose term. Thats ok, we move with the times. There has always been effenimante men and tomboy girls. Often they fell into the Homosexual category, but not always. No one cared before and no one cares now as far as that goes.

What people are pushing back hard against is the co-opting of the terms Man, Woman, Boy and Girl. These are not fluid and those that have views on what they identify as are not particually happy with the terms being co-opted. Man-Male, Woman-Female is a clear distinction relating to sex.

Men have XY cromosones and have testies. Women have XX chromosones and uteruses. At least at birth. Removing these surgically does not change your sex. It is a very clear definition that apart from some very specific abnormalities covers the human race and most of the animal kingdom well.

There is a large percentage of women out there who are not ok with any male who wants to claim the title. Biological women go through a heap of stuff that they feels give them the right to claim that word exclusively and no-one with an XY is welcome to it. I agree with them.

Men cannot have babies. Trans men can. Women menstrate and have babies, Trans women cannot. That is the meaning of the term - trans, changed or different.

Again the issue is not that trans people do not exist, or deserve respect and acknowledgement it is about the fact they are Male or Female irrespective of how they identify and do not have a mandate to simply expect others to accept thier claim at the point of a gun.

A biological male who identifies as a woman is not a woman. To test that, tell me what he identifies as without using the term woman.

Find another term to use and everyone will be fine with that. But you can't claim rights when they tread all over the rights of others. Maybe that isn't fair, but no one said life should be either fair or easy for anyone.

Is this the same rights argument used for gay marriage? If they call it marriage then it's taking away the rights or hetro married people. Equal rights for others does not mean fewer rights for you. It's not pie.

So this thread isn't about learning to gybe? My mistake.

Paradox - Specifically most people are ok with the recent morphing of the term gender to be a psycological construct

Not true.



Outwardly perhaps but if you are honest with yourself you know deep down its a complete croc.

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GasHazard said..
So this thread isn't about learning to gybe? My mistake.

I admit i cant gybe for sh/t but i sure as heck can tell the difference between a bloke and a Sheila.

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Pcdefender said..

I admit i cant gybe for sh/t but i sure as heck can tell the difference between a bloke and a Sheila.

I can do both (and I can spell).

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westozwind said..

Is this the same rights argument used for gay marriage? If they call it marriage then it's taking away the rights or hetro married people. Equal rights for others does not mean fewer rights for you. It's not pie.

I can't really see the equivilancy. I suspect the arguments around that were based on specific religous definitions of marriage.

The only areas I can see conflict here is if say a religous official is forced by law to marry two people that goes against that particular religion. This is a thing that has come up and is the heart of the matter (laws or regulations forcing people to do things against thier beliefs in the name of inclusion or discrimination).

It extends into services like cake making where there was a prominant case were someone was charged for refusing to make a cake related to gay marriage or something.

I would be very much against the forcing of anyone to do something against thier religion. That is how rights are trampled. If you can grasp this, you will grasp most of the arguments being made in this area. It is not the rights of individuals that is the issue, it is the forcing of others to comply with accepting it. This is happening and is labelled tyranny of the minority.

^You need to try sources other than Faux News. Declaring something is against your imaginary religion is pretty much like declaring what gender you would like to be.

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Pcdefender said..
Paradox - Specifically most people are ok with the recent morphing of the term gender to be a psycological construct

Not true.



Outwardly perhaps but if you are honest with yourself you know deep down its a complete croc.

I guess it comes down to term definitions, that is really the heart of all this, the accepted use of certain language words and thier meanings. As said I am ok with the term "gender" being morphed to only reference psycological aspects, provided that actually occurs (it is not), but not ok with Man, Woman, boy or girl being morphed. So it would require another term to describe what someone identifies as if different to thier sex. Use trans in front if you wish, or invent another term, but do not use terms that are hardwired to biological sex to describe your identity. That is appropriation.

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remery said..
^You need to try sources other than Faux News. Declaring something is against your imaginary religion is pretty much like declaring what gender you would like to be.

100% Correct, I think you are getting there. Maybe....

Both are personal psycological beliefs that have absolutely nothing to do with anyone else. Provided no one forces anyone else to acknowledge or cater to someone elses beliefs then we are good. The problem is when someones beliefs are forced on others.

We can work together in a polite society to willingly accept or reject others views or beliefs but forcing them is a no no.

Not sure how this relates to a news site, but righto.

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Paradox said..

100% Correct, I think you are getting there. Maybe....

Both are personal psycological beliefs that have absolutely nothing to do with anyone else. Provided no one forces anyone else to acknowledge or cater to someone elses beliefs then we are good. The problem is when someones beliefs are forced on others.

We can work together in a polite society to willingly accept or reject others views or beliefs but forcing them is a no no.

Not sure how this relates to a news site, but righto.

I think some Australian, rather than rehashed US, examples of how your freedoms have been assaulted might help your credibility.