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Haydn24 said..

Cowards way out

You're a dead horse that I just wanted to throw another one last boot into whilst you're down there. Pathetic.

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kiterboy said..
Of all the people I've known directly or indirectly who have committed suicide, none of them were living in conditions that made death the best option, not by a long shot.

Guess what's the only thing in common with all those people ?

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pierrec45 said..

kiterboy said..
Of all the people I've known directly or indirectly who have committed suicide, none of them were living in conditions that made death the best option, not by a long shot.

Guess what's the only thing in common with all those people ?

Self-indulgent thinking leading to suicide.

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kiterboy said..

NotWal said..

thomas11 said..
...

Massive first world problem.
Life is pretty good here compared to a lot of places on this earth. Its an unfortunate by-product of our first world lifestyle.
My brain is very literal so I struggle to understand why people choose that way out.
I'll probably get canned for this, but I think its a pretty selfish thing to do to the people around you.

You don't necessarily see it that way when you're contemplating it. One of the aspects of depression is that life seems grey joyless and pointless and you are pretty much convinced that this is a true image of life. One death more or less shouldn't mean much to anybody else. The received knowledge about loss seems like an artificial construct that in the light of your bleak world view is obviously wrong.

That's because it's such an extremely self-indulgent way of thinking.

Suicidal thoughts are, especially in our country, the height of self-indulgence.
Perhaps there are people out there who death is the best option for, but I doubt it.
Of all the people I've known directly or indirectly who have committed suicide, none of them were living in conditions that made death the best option, not by a long shot.

Their world view does not concur with yours. Their evaluations are not the same as yours. It looks like "self-indulgence" to you but that term is usually applied to pleasure. I'm pretty sure people don't just kill themselves for kicks. That's a pretty twisted way of seeing things.

Self-indulgence is not synonymous with pleasure.

The twisted thing here is the spin you're putting on what I said.

^ I think self-indulgent is the wrong word. Self-centred is accurate.

There is, however, a massive difference between the two. The former is very enjoyable and the latter not so much.

Think paranoia, extreme self-consciousness, invasive thoughts, bottomless pits of self-esteem, isolation, and the invincible It that you can't win against nor stop playing. It'd be fair to call people that commit suicide mad, even if they weren't initially, because the type of thoughts that drive you to suicide will most likely drive you mad on the way.

Being self-centred, especially in a negative sense, is no fun at all.

These unfortunate souls are more often than not intelligent people, with excellent families and friends, a future so bright they need shades. And they are completely aware of this. It's not self-indulgence or selfishness in the classic sense that drives them to suicide. It's what is eating them up inside. You simply cannot see it, and lucky for you you have no idea what it's like.

I've been unfortunate enough to have spent decades of my life fighting depression (which seems to have, in later life.... ah, I'm not going to jinx myself) and it is impossible to express the experience when It's at its worst. I've had plenty of sad experiences in my life, absolute tragedies, but they came from an external event and so I was able to deal with the sadness. Depression comes from... nowhere. It feels perhaps as if you lost your child in an accident, but can't remember it. Only the feeling remains; absolute devastation that becomes the center of your existence. Over nothing. There is no beginning to it so where do you start? And it won't go away.

And that's only one common source of suicide. It could be the shock of complete financial ruin, and the lives of others you have ruined in the process. It could be bullying at school or work, and the nightmare world you inhabit because of it. It could be unrequited love, that seems silly to older people (Romeo & Juliet).

It will look completely different to you, the outsider. We are all alone in our minds and souls and our experiences are relative.

In short the person committing suicide doesn't want to die, the very thought of committing suicide makes things worse, a feedback system, and it's just as terrifying as it is for you or I, but it's the better of two options, as they see it. And yes, these situations really are temporary. But these experiences often render the poor soul timeless, and this timelessness can drag on for years, each near-ending a cruel taunt.

...for example right now I'm glad I held on all these years. But if/when It does return I'll think the opposite. I know I'll regret signing up for another round, and all the previous rounds too. (and I know that I know that I know that now, so I hang on anyway, but I tell you: it's hard.)

But I can understand how someone can see it as self-indulgent or cowardice. If you've never been there no explanation is possible. And if you have been there no explanation is required.

____

Sheesh. That's made me sad. I tell you another thing too; don't try to cheer depressed people up. You want to try to create a neutral atmosphere. Not happy. No events. Just something calm and normal and content. Something easy. An afternoon nap under a tree on a summer's day. Down to earth stuff. I'm going to make a tea.

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kiterboy said..

Self-indulgence is not synonymous with pleasure.

The twisted thing here is the spin you're putting on what I said.

yes, self indulgence is synonymous with pleasure, or at least an individuals perceived pleasure, self loathing maybe what they had in common masked behind usually what is extra good people skills as the pain inside is theirs alone to wallow in, usually been festering for yrs, so the individual eventually feels most worth, comfortable alone feeling poor, a negative ground hog day for the mind, which eventually becomes all too permanent to perhaps leading to an anti-form of self- indulgence, they are self indulgening in self loathing?,,,,,,,,It's selfish to be unable to empathize with others, here is what you sound like as a grown man i assume, ,, my friend killed himself, that makes me sad, i dont like to be sad, he was a jerk for making me sad, that's what they call selfish, primarily concerned chiefly with ones own self

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Milsy said..

kiterboy said..

Self-indulgence is not synonymous with pleasure.

The twisted thing here is the spin you're putting on what I said.

It's selfish to be unable to empathize with others, here is what you sound like as a grown man i assume, ,, my friend killed himself, that makes me sad, i dont like to be sad, he was a jerk for making me sad, that's what they call selfish, primarily concerned chiefly with ones own self

You are so spot on here Milsy. So spot on......

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Milsy said..

kiterboy said..

Self-indulgence is not synonymous with pleasure.

The twisted thing here is the spin you're putting on what I said.

yes, self indulgence is synonymous with pleasure, or at least an individuals perceived pleasure, self loathing maybe what they had in common masked behind usually what is extra good people skills as the pain inside is theirs alone to wallow in, usually been festering for yrs, so the individual eventually feels most worth, comfortable alone feeling poor, a negative ground hog day for the mind, which eventually becomes all too permanent to perhaps leading to an anti-form of self- indulgence, they are self indulgening in self loathing?,,,,,,,,It's selfish to be unable to empathize with others, here is what you sound like as a grown man i assume, ,, my friend killed himself, that makes me sad, i dont like to be sad, he was a jerk for making me sad, that's what they call selfish, primarily concerned chiefly with ones own self

Yeah, not even close buddy.

Oh, and synomyms:
= extravagance, excess, incontinence, dissipation, self-gratification, intemperance, sensualism

anyone who refers to cowards etc. better hope no one close to you ever does it. Depression can hit anyone at any time.
You have little control over your brain. Not really very fair. I can't imagine a parent ever saying this.

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myusernam said..

anyone who refers to cowards etc. better hope no one close to you ever does it. Depression can hit anyone at any time.
You have little control over your brain. Not really very fair. I can't imagine a parent ever saying this.

Spot on mate, nobody knows how other people are feeling no matter how well you think you know them.

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kiterboy said...

pierrec45 said..

kiterboy said..
Of all the people I've known directly or indirectly who have committed suicide, none of them were living in conditions that made death the best option, not by a long shot.

Guess what's the only thing in common with all those people ?

Self-indulgent thinking leading to suicide.

Try telling that to the sixteen year old girl in my town who took her own life....noone wanted to believe her devoutly religious father was abusing her :(.

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Chilla said..

kiterboy said...

pierrec45 said..

kiterboy said..
Of all the people I've known directly or indirectly who have committed suicide, none of them were living in conditions that made death the best option, not by a long shot.

Guess what's the only thing in common with all those people ?

Self-indulgent thinking leading to suicide.

Try telling that to the sixteen year old girl in my town who took her own life....noone wanted to believe her devoutly religious father was abusing her :(.

Extremely difficult/disgusting/appalling situation and I empathize, but death is never the right answer, except for the abuser/s.

I have a question i've often wondered? Especially for a good mate of mine who has had some real issues of late. His body has developed an immunity to many drugs and has had a hard time getting them adjusted. So especially for this case I'm curious?

Would exercise make a big difference? I mean to go the opposite and try and get very fit, the feelings your body releases once you've trained for an hour is fantastic and i have often wondered if that would make a difference in the long run? Also would help work against the obvious side effects of weight gain. I just feel that once you progress to get fit, you then start to watch your diet and i thought maybe it would expand from their..?

I can vouch that really to date all i can do is listen and touch base more often, but i'd like to be able to go the next step also, but unsure if i should push or not

Has anyone seen any studies..

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jbshack said..

It would be nice, if this thread could be left for those that want to help and maybe if you disagree just leave it alone

Lets make it a supportive effort, not a option to pull people down or belittle their cause

Once more, and to the rest of us, lets not feed the trolls..

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jbshack said..

I have a question i've often wondered? Especially for a good mate of mine who has had some real issues of late. His body has developed an immunity to many drugs and has had a hard time getting them adjusted. So especially for this case I'm curious?

Would exercise make a big difference? I mean to go the opposite and try and get very fit, the feelings your body releases once you've trained for an hour is fantastic and i have often wondered if that would make a difference in the long run? Also would help work against the obvious side effects of weight gain. I just feel that once you progress to get fit, you then start to watch your diet and i thought maybe it would expand from their..?

I can vouch that really to date all i can do is listen and touch base more often, but i'd like to be able to go the next step also, but unsure if i should push or not

Has anyone seen any studies..

Does your friend like to surf??
No better feeling than being out in the water, gives you plenty of time to think, relax and just enjoy life. Just wished I live closer to the waves so I could surf more often.
Exercise is a great release also, I speak to mates who after a hard/stressful day at work hate going to the gym/run/ride as they say they are exhausted, which is always mental exhaustion.
Myself after a long day cant wait to go to the gym or go for a run, straightens out my thoughts for the day and tires me physically, this leads to a good nights sleep, which is so important, I don't think a lot of people realise how good a good night's sleep is for you.

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thomas11 said..

jbshack said..

I have a question i've often wondered? Especially for a good mate of mine who has had some real issues of late. His body has developed an immunity to many drugs and has had a hard time getting them adjusted. So especially for this case I'm curious?

Would exercise make a big difference? I mean to go the opposite and try and get very fit, the feelings your body releases once you've trained for an hour is fantastic and i have often wondered if that would make a difference in the long run? Also would help work against the obvious side effects of weight gain. I just feel that once you progress to get fit, you then start to watch your diet and i thought maybe it would expand from their..?

I can vouch that really to date all i can do is listen and touch base more often, but i'd like to be able to go the next step also, but unsure if i should push or not

Has anyone seen any studies..

Does your friend like to surf??
No better feeling than being out in the water, gives you plenty of time to think, relax and just enjoy life. Just wished I live closer to the waves so I could surf more often.
Exercise is a great release also, I speak to mates who after a hard/stressful day at work hate going to the gym/run/ride as they say they are exhausted, which is always mental exhaustion.
Myself after a long day cant wait to go to the gym or go for a run, straightens out my thoughts for the day and tires me physically, this leads to a good nights sleep, which is so important, I don't think a lot of people realise how good a good night's sleep is for you.

Yeah surfs and paddle ski but nothing to what i would say, a fitness level. I was thinking along the lines of event planing and then training to that.
Obviously time restrains are hard also as we don't live close..

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evlPanda said..

^ I think self-indulgent is the wrong word. Self-centred is accurate.

There is, however, a massive difference between the two. The former is very enjoyable and the latter not so much.
....
(snip elucidation)

That's another good one eP. I'm sorry to hear about your troubles. I wont tell you to cheer up but I have to say you are one of the better posters here and I hope to read many more from you.

People without depression might like to stop telling people with depression what to do.

Very interesting comments here - keep it up.

I've often thought that if things got that bad, I'd simply rig up a sail and keep on the same tack (you know - disappear into the sunset 'stuff'). An easy way out...friends would say "that's the way he would have liked to go". My family wouldn't have to deal with the fall-out as it would be a 'sporting accident' etc...

The problem is that my logical thinking wouldn't allow it;

1. I've never been that low so I don't know that my 'romantic notion' would even enter my mind if I hit rock-bottom.
2. I'm not fit enough to get much further than out of the line of sight before my front leg starts to cramp so I'd have to gybe and come back in.
3. I get such a high from being on the water that I would probably not go through with it regardless.
4. If I did get out a few Km's...I'd probably pass a few fishing boats - that would spoil the plan.
5. I'd rather go home afterwards to windsurf another day.

As mentioned - I think the key word is 'support'. We're not geared to walk around with our feelings on our sleeves offering a shoulder for all our friends and acquaintances. If someone's struggling or doing it tough - a simple "Hey - I'm here if you need to talk about it mate..." can make a huge difference.

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jbshack said..

I have a question i've often wondered? Especially for a good mate of mine who has had some real issues of late. His body has developed an immunity to many drugs and has had a hard time getting them adjusted. So especially for this case I'm curious?

Would exercise make a big difference? I mean to go the opposite and try and get very fit, the feelings your body releases once you've trained for an hour is fantastic and i have often wondered if that would make a difference in the long run? Also would help work against the obvious side effects of weight gain. I just feel that once you progress to get fit, you then start to watch your diet and i thought maybe it would expand from their..?

I can vouch that really to date all i can do is listen and touch base more often, but i'd like to be able to go the next step also, but unsure if i should push or not

Has anyone seen any studies..

I took up kiting to take my mind off stuff (First kite was a 2 line stunt... progressed to power kites etc) I loved getting out and had a good crew to go with. Just concentrating on keeping the kite in the air stops the white noise from your head.

Problem is, you cant be arsed sometimes - you know you should - but you cant be arsed. Even going for a walk outside is enough to help leave the dog at home... but you cant be arsed.

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rod_bunny said..

jbshack said..

I have a question i've often wondered? Especially for a good mate of mine who has had some real issues of late. His body has developed an immunity to many drugs and has had a hard time getting them adjusted. So especially for this case I'm curious?

Would exercise make a big difference? I mean to go the opposite and try and get very fit, the feelings your body releases once you've trained for an hour is fantastic and i have often wondered if that would make a difference in the long run? Also would help work against the obvious side effects of weight gain. I just feel that once you progress to get fit, you then start to watch your diet and i thought maybe it would expand from their..?

I can vouch that really to date all i can do is listen and touch base more often, but i'd like to be able to go the next step also, but unsure if i should push or not

Has anyone seen any studies..

I took up kiting to take my mind off stuff (First kite was a 2 line stunt... progressed to power kites etc) I loved getting out and had a good crew to go with. Just concentrating on keeping the kite in the air stops the white noise from your head.

Problem is, you cant be arsed sometimes - you know you should - but you cant be arsed. Even going for a walk outside is enough to help leave the dog at home... but you cant be arsed.

I know what you are saying about cant be arsed, but you need to just do it. I have felt the same in the past and have had to force myself to get out and do, well anything even if its jumping on the bike or skateboard, just do it you will feel better after.
If you dont feel better talk to someone, anyone.
My mate Mark commited scuicide on nye and I wish I could have spoken to him before, I really do

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evlPanda said..

^ I think self-indulgent is the wrong word. Self-centred is accurate.


But I can understand how someone can see it as self-indulgent or cowardice. If you've never been there no explanation is possible. And if you have been there no explanation is required.

____

Sheesh. That's made me sad. I tell you another thing too; don't try to cheer depressed people up. You want to try to create a neutral atmosphere. Not happy. No events. Just something calm and normal and content. Something easy. An afternoon nap under a tree on a summer's day. Down to earth stuff. I'm going to make a tea.

A knowing nod your way mate...

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evlPanda said..

evilPanda, THANK YOU. I hope you had a really good cup of tea, the effort of those words deserved it

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oliver said..

People without depression might like to stop telling people with depression what to do.

You just hit the nail on the head mate! If you haven't been there you haven't got a clue!!

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kiterboy said...

That's because it's such an extremely self-indulgent way of thinking.

Suicidal thoughts are, especially in our country, the height of self-indulgence.
Perhaps there are people out there who death is the best option for, but I doubt it.
Of all the people I've known directly or indirectly who have committed suicide, none of them were living in conditions that made death the best option, not by a long shot.

Is self-indulgence so much more offensive than your self-righteousness?

How many decisions that we make in our lives are truly not self-indulgent? We choose a career, a partner, to have children, a home, furnish it with material possessions. Are these decisions not all ultimately driven by efforts to make ourselves happy?

How can you stand in generic judgement of unknown silent masses all experiencing unique and individual pain? How can you know for whom death is not a better option?

How many lives look like roses on the surface but hide dark secrets that may never come out, even in death?

Please try not to judge what you cannot see.

Long term solution to a short term problem.

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evlPanda said..
Depression comes from... nowhere. It feels perhaps as if you lost your child in an accident, but can't remember it. Only the feeling remains; absolute devastation that becomes the center of your existence. Over nothing. There is no beginning to it so where do you start? And it won't go away.

Wow! Very well written EvlPanda. A peotic way to explain some heavy emotions.

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Wahine said...

kiterboy said...

That's because it's such an extremely self-indulgent way of thinking.

Suicidal thoughts are, especially in our country, the height of self-indulgence.
Perhaps there are people out there who death is the best option for, but I doubt it.
Of all the people I've known directly or indirectly who have committed suicide, none of them were living in conditions that made death the best option, not by a long shot.

Is self-indulgence so much more offensive than your self-righteousness?

How many decisions that we make in our lives are truly not self-indulgent? We choose a career, a partner, to have children, a home, furnish it with material possessions. Are these decisions not all ultimately driven by efforts to make ourselves happy?

How can you stand in generic judgement of unknown silent masses all experiencing unique and individual pain? How can you know for whom death is not a better option?

How many lives look like roses on the surface but hide dark secrets that may never come out, even in death?

Please try not to judge what you cannot see.

It's self-righteousness me saying that death is never the answer?

Where do you get off making the judgement call that death would be the right answer for anyone?

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kiterboy said..

Wahine said...

kiterboy said...

That's because it's such an extremely self-indulgent way of thinking.

Suicidal thoughts are, especially in our country, the height of self-indulgence.
Perhaps there are people out there who death is the best option for, but I doubt it.
Of all the people I've known directly or indirectly who have committed suicide, none of them were living in conditions that made death the best option, not by a long shot.

Is self-indulgence so much more offensive than your self-righteousness?

How many decisions that we make in our lives are truly not self-indulgent? We choose a career, a partner, to have children, a home, furnish it with material possessions. Are these decisions not all ultimately driven by efforts to make ourselves happy?

How can you stand in generic judgement of unknown silent masses all experiencing unique and individual pain? How can you know for whom death is not a better option?

How many lives look like roses on the surface but hide dark secrets that may never come out, even in death?

Please try not to judge what you cannot see.

It's self-righteousness me saying that death is never the answer?

Where do you get off making the judgement call that death would be the right answer for anyone?

mental health is not an example of a human thinking rationally, to suggest that the conclusion one makes to commit suicide is a form of selfishness, or an example of self indulgence just doesn't ring true for all, there are some, like yourself kiterboy, that think its this and a form of cowardice, but again most disagree, the whole coward thing doesn't make much sense, simply put, most humans would be to scared to kill themselves regardless of mindset, and is the guy who jumps on a hand grenade, ultimately killing himself, suicide, his not a coward, would you go to a hospital and call them cowards, the non fatal suicide attempts, of course not, a champion is a person who keeps giving, especially when it appears there will be no return for efforts, just keep giving, keep inspiring, a coward is someone who takes from those unable to hold whats theirs, eg its cowardly to call someone with mental health issues a coward, its cowardly to disrespect the dead,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,I've really enjoyed your posts Wahine, especially about first world living, leading to more suicide than those that generally fight for survival daily, very interesting, and i think true, society is the term for our collective approach to living, i think society doesn't met the needs of many, causing fractures, mental health etc, not everyone can be a ruthless money making machine, we should have allowed many platforms for people to exist not just the capitalistic society we have now, not the drug or grog abuse, but i love the freedom Aboriginals have, no association with wealth, many white guys just cant get their head around, but i love the way they live