It's Time To Rethink Freeway Driving In Australia

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Created by

Adriano > 9 months ago, 25 Nov 2016

ThinkaBowtit

1134 posts

28 Nov 2016 10:01am

Tailgating impatient dicks in their hotted-up wankmobiles, car loads of teenage bogans, drink drivers, ice and meth heads, steroid-stuffed agro gym junkies and other angry people, all with a licence to drive as fast as they want to on the same road as me and mine...no thanks. It's bad enough while they feel at least somewhat restrained by a limit. That's the problem, too many loose cannons in this country. And loose stock and wildlife.

I doubt the high number of road fatalities here happen because no one was driving fast enough. I'm up for an increase in speed in some areas, that 100+ km dead straight stretch south of Carnarvon comes to mind, but not an all out limitless speed. Trying to judge the speed of an oncoming car in the distance that could be doing anything between 100 and 300 km when I want to overtake a road train...not into that at all. So that leaves even upping the limit to upping it to something everyone should be doing, not just those who want to. Which is why 110 works I guess.

If you're that hell bent on driving fast either move to Germany or take up racing, on a track. Check out this pair of knobheads:

Adriano

11206 posts

28 Nov 2016 10:04am

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Ian K said..

Adriano said..

Ian, clearly a speed limit that was enforced in 1976 should be up for review in 2016 when so much else has changed.

The nut behind the wheel hasn't changed. SO EUROPEANS DRIVER ARE ALL NUTS?

The formula for kinetic energy hasn't changed YES BUT EVERYTHING ELSE ABOUT CARS HAS.

Roads might be better but the nut behind the wheel is now in a top heavy 4wd, which would be lucky to out brake an HZ holden. RUBBISH. I'VE NEVER SEEN ONE OF THESE LIFTED UTES ON THE HUME HIGHWAY AND EVEN IF I HAD, I BET YOU $1,000,000 IT WOULD OUT BRAKE A STOCK HZ HOLDEN, ESPECIALLY IN THE WET.

Shifu

QLD

1994 posts

28 Nov 2016 12:06pm

Average German Driver:

Average Aussie driver:

Ian K

4164 posts

28 Nov 2016 10:54am

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Adriano said..

Ian K said..

Adriano said..

Ian, clearly a speed limit that was enforced in 1976 should be up for review in 2016 when so much else has changed.

I take it you've never driven a well maintained HZ or a Thai 4wd ute with off-road biased tyres?

FormulaNova

15090 posts

28 Nov 2016 11:11am

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Ian K said..

Adriano said..

Ian K said..

Roads might be better but the nut behind the wheel is now in a top heavy 4wd, which would be lucky to out brake an HZ holden. RUBBISH. I'VE NEVER SEEN ONE OF THESE LIFTED UTES ON THE HUME HIGHWAY AND EVEN IF I HAD, I BET YOU $1,000,000 IT WOULD OUT BRAKE A STOCK HZ HOLDEN, ESPECIALLY IN THE WET.

I take it you've never driven a well maintained HZ or a Thai 4wd ute with off-road biased tyres?

I think back in the day, disk brake conversions of HZ/HQ disks were quite common. Weren't they meant to be huge disks?

Having said that, a commodore has fantastic brakes now compared to what some cars used to have in the 70's.

Just to add fuel to the fire, I have 4 litre falcon turbo, and even with the standard 'sufficient' brakes, use the car with a bit too much enthusiasm, and you easily exceed its braking capabilities. Accelerating hard to get into a gap is fine, but then slowing down to the same speed of the traffic is challenging.

These cars are capable of crazy speeds. I would hate to see what a careless person would do with them on an unrestricted road.

Ian K

4164 posts

28 Nov 2016 11:42am

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FormulaNova said..
Just to add fuel to the fire, I have 4 litre falcon turbo, and even with the standard 'sufficient' brakes, use the car with a bit too much enthusiasm, and you easily exceed its braking capabilities. Accelerating hard to get into a gap is fine, but then slowing down to the same speed of the traffic is challenging.

Sounds like there's something wrong with it? What are the symptoms, does the pedal go spongy? Does one wheel lock up before the others? Is the ABS not working? You'd expect they might fade on a racetrack but fade shouldn't be a problem in a one off slow down? Is it fitted with hard pads? Are the tyres old and lost stickiness?

(Convinced me I bought one in 1978, $5800.00 driveway, a bargain)

Jupiter

2156 posts

28 Nov 2016 11:52am

Yes, I do agree that good to great roads will make driving faster possible and safer. New cars also have new safety features that will cocoon drivers from a major accident, possibly avoid catastrophic injuries that may render the driver a life on wheelchair. So car manufacturers spruik their new wares with features that require a good brain to memorise all of them. ABS, KDSS, HDC...the list goes on. All these extra features are suppose to make you a better driver.

Not only are there safety features that will give us a sleepless night trying to remember them all, but these cars go faster as well. So we can go faster, but have no fear, we can also stop quicker. In an event of a nasty collision, we have designed collapsible front, re-inforced side impact zone if you have a roll-over, and enough airbags to suffocate you ! Yes, safer, faster, more controller. But there is one factor we failed to take into account, and it is the fact that we humans do not evolve fast enough to take advantage of all these features.

Carantoc mentioned that if 140 is too fast in my opinion, why then 110 isn't ? Well, like Ian_K explained, going that extra 30 means your net reaction time is reduced to the point that you are at risk of losing control. We humans are not equal. Racing drivers can zip along in 230 in a circuit I wouldn't dare on 80 ! Yes, they do have better cars. But I would suggest they are just different in terms of reaction time, reflexes, abilities, and of course, training. Another example is fighter pilots. They are a league on their own in terms of reflexes, hand-eye co-ordination, and definitely, NERVES

110 or 140, that is the question. I reckon 110 is possibly low for some good drivers. May be 140 is about right for them. But may I speculate that many of us believed we are the best drivers. Ask those boy racers in the souped up RX's. If you are to raise it to 140, what is stopping them to do 160 or even more ? That is how we are, We want to buck the systems and rules because we are different.

In a nutshell, I believe 110 is a compromise. Too slow for some good drivers, but fast enough to get you from A to B in one piece. Ultimately, human evolution and better techonology still can't beat the law of physics. Action and reaction are equal and opposite

Adriano

11206 posts

28 Nov 2016 1:57pm

Seriously Ian, I can't believe you are showing us videos of 40 year old cars as a reason to not re-assess freeway speed limits.

Seriously?

Adriano

11206 posts

28 Nov 2016 2:20pm

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Shifu said..
Average German Driver:

Average Aussie driver:

I agree that attitude, parochialism and culture have a lot to do with this.

In Australia, we have a nanny state where we make laws based on the lowest common denominator like FERAL BOGAN above.

In Germany and Europe, where they place trust in their citizens and people are far more concerned for everyone else's wellbeing, driving faster is seen as normal and acceptable. It is more democratic and less totalitarian.

Europe manages the risk.

Australia tries to remove all risk completely and in the process treats us all like mugs.

Ian K

4164 posts

28 Nov 2016 5:13pm

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Adriano said..
Seriously Ian, I can't believe you are showing us videos of 40 year old cars as a reason to not re-assess freeway speed limits.

Seriously?

You're the one who said 40 yr old cars were so bad! You can buy a better one these days but not plus 30kph better.
Many in Australia still choose vehicles with a fashionably high C of G that negates all the advances of ABS and stability control.

Top ten models October 2016
Toyota HiLux — 3352.
Ford Ranger — 3217.
Toyota Corolla — 3210.
Hyundai i30 — 2718.
Mazda 3 — 2191.
Toyota Camry — 2135
.Holden Commodore — 2101.
Hyundai Accent — 2009.

Sweden has the odd moose we have the odd kangaroo. We both have 110 kph limits on motorways.

Shifu

QLD

1994 posts

28 Nov 2016 8:37pm

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Adriano said...

Shifu said..
Average German Driver:

Average Aussie driver:

But we ARE mugs. Refer to pic above. If people would just try to behave like they have a brain... but they don't. Willful ignorance is a national passtime.

eppo

9762 posts

28 Nov 2016 6:42pm

Man those mechanical breaks on the HZ used to freeze up all the time. Had to get out the car so many times, pop the hood and unlock the damn mechanical arm.

Not making any comment about the differnt cars by the way, just brought back memories and the reliable red Engine.

racerX

463 posts

28 Nov 2016 7:16pm

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Ian K said..

For this question we can assume stopping distance is proportional to speed squared. Ignore driver reaction time.

Car #1 driving at 100kph sees a hazard from point A and hits the skids. Car #1 stops at position B. (Just short of the hazard,
(B - A is called the car's stopping distance)
Car #2 driving at 140kph sees the same hazard from the same position and hits the skids.

Q. How fast is car #2 going when it hits the hazard?

choose nearest answer.

1. 0 kph (Same as car #1 )
2. 40 kph
3. 70 kph
4. 100 kph

Q. For extra marks would the collision speed be increased or decreased if we allowed for driver reaction time in the calculation?

Couple of bonus questions?

A. What is the average variation in reaction time between a driver that has driven for 4 hours on multi lane highway at 100kmh, and one that has driven for 2.8hrs at 140kmh?
B. What is the difference in error rate, change in judgement (perception of risk), change in driving behaviour (e.g. distances between cars) after the two time periods?

I don't think the improvement in cars is the justification, I think it is the improvement in roads. i.e. proper multi lane free ways should have a higher limit.

FormulaNova

15090 posts

29 Nov 2016 3:39am

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Ian K said..

Ian, its not a problem, well not with the braking anyway. The car can get to 100kmh in about 5 seconds, so accelerating hard and then trying to slot smoothly into a gap in traffic is a problem of overshooting your target speed. The braking is fine, but its hard work trying to slow down from illegal speeds to traffic speeds (smoothly).

I would blame the bigger turbo the guy before me fitted. It might generate more power but it does it at the cost of lag. The dyno graph shows nothing, nothing, then dumb amounts of power when you don't need it.

The brakes are fine. They have been bled perfectly, by me. The ABS is perfect. The traction control cuts in as often as it needs to in order to stop the party. Slotted rotors, and regular pads.

A friend at work was trying to tell me that a Porsche Turbo would accelerate to 100kmh in the same time "smoother". Beats me how a car can accelerate to that speed in that time any smoother when its just a function of bag loads of power in a short time. I'll let him know if I ever drive a Porsche Turbo.

I guess in short, I would not like to see someone more careless than me drive my car faster on the freeway. Even the acceleration from 80km/h up surprises some people, so of course they pull out...

Adriano

11206 posts

29 Nov 2016 4:45am

All fair enough, but as usual, in Australia we make laws for the lowest common denominator or the rare case where people chose to drive old cars - instead of making laws coolly, rationally and democratically for everybody.

In Europe, they make laws for everybody and don't treat all the good drivers like criminals in waiting.

I think the real problem in Australia is our backward parochial and smart arse "we know better then everyone else" approach that comes from being too isolated and too irrelevant in the world.

I said "It's Time To Have A Rethink".

It seems even that concept is too hard for some to contemplate.

Little Jon

NSW

2115 posts

29 Nov 2016 7:54am

way too slow, people will drive 10 under on a freeway and then do 20 over in the 50 zone with driveways etc

Adriano

11206 posts

29 Nov 2016 5:15am

Exactly. Doing 50km/h in a densely populated area with pedestrians, pets, bicycles and parked cars about is far more dangerous to human safety than a modern car doing 130km/h on a virtually straight rural freeway with not a soul about.

It's not even worth doing an assessment to prove. It's common sense.

FormulaNova

15090 posts

29 Nov 2016 6:32am

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Adriano said..
Exactly. Doing 50km/h in a densely populated area with pedestrians, pets, bicycles and parked cars about is far more dangerous to human safety than a modern car doing 130km/h on a virtually straight rural freeway with not a soul about.

It's not even worth doing an assessment to prove. It's common sense.

but its not common sense. Lots of people drive faster in built-up areas. On my commute to work the speed limit in a lot of the streets is 50kmh, yet with lots of parked cars, and kids around, people are trying to get through there at 70. I try and sit at 40 because i think that particular area is risky for pedestrians.

So, the same people that do that are okay to drive at 130kmh? I think we have to match it to a minimum standard, as unfortunately there are plenty of those people out there.

I think the autobahn is a very different comparison. More lanes, better lane discipline, helicopters to take you to hospital. We just don't have that here.

I would prefer more police presence on the roads. This seems to calm people down. Even though a lot of accidents no doubt get reported as 'speed was a factor', its probably the knuckle head that was tailgating or jumping between lanes that really caused the accident. If there are police around, maybe those people get caught or rein in their behavior?

Adriano

11206 posts

29 Nov 2016 7:43am

So all these countries are wrong and as per usual, a backward, parochial smart arse country like Australia is right?

So typical. No wonder no one takes notice of much that goes on here.

France - 130km/h
Austria - 130km/h
Bulgaria - 140km/h
Denmark - 130km/h
Italy - 150km/h
The Netherlands - 130km/h
Poland - 140km/h
Germany - Unlimited, on selected roads*

Australia - 110km/h since 1974.
That's ridiculous to have the same freeway speed limit since 1974 when everything, including driver testing and public awareness of safe driving has changed.

I mean far out, 99% of everyday stock cars had drum brakes, no ABS, weighed tonnes, no airbags, no crumple zones, no collision avoidance systems and had awful suspension and steering systems.

Adriano

11206 posts

29 Nov 2016 9:26am

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Ian K said..

Sweden has the odd moose we have the odd kangaroo. We both have 110 kph limits on motorways.

Ian, would you say that kangaroos are about as dangerous to motorists now as they were in 1974 when the 110km/h speed was introduced?

FormulaNova

15090 posts

29 Nov 2016 10:06am

What ended up happening in NT when they removed the de-restricted speed zones? Did they do a backflip when accident stats didn't change?

Adriano

11206 posts

29 Nov 2016 10:29am

I understand that the trial ran for 18 months and was full evidence based, unlike IanK double-think from the 1970's.

I also understand that an extended 336km stretch including the trial area still has a permanently un-restricted speed limit.

www.drive.com.au/motor-news/nt-speed-limits-permanently-derestricted-20150903-gje7jc.html

Open speed limits were abolished by the former Territory Labor Government in 2006 and replaced by a maximum limit of 130km/h. More people died on Territory roads (307) in the six years after than in the six years before the change (292).

The NT government said officially that "...there had been no speed related deaths on that stretch of the highway in 10 years".

That's not even a divided road. Well run for the hills!

It's hardly surprising that the NT government has come to its senses.

rod_bunny

1089 posts

29 Nov 2016 1:15pm

I lived in the UK for 8 years, drove all around Europe (and the US). Not 1 single speeding ticket.

Around town I stuck to the limits, on the A & M roads it was 85mph, set cruise.

Weekly for 12 months I would drive from Oxford – Leeds (175mi/281km) Motorway speed limit is 70mph (112kph) Apart from when traffic built up, my cruise was set at 85mph (136kph). Police did not bother you unless you went over 90 (144kph), but do 35 in a 30 zone and you’re nicked!

The worst run in I had with the police was when a cop manning a roadside speed trap (laser) gave me the “back it off a bit” wave – while I was sitting on 100mph on an almost empty M40 – I dropped to 85 (still 25kph over the limit) and he waved me on. Here, I would’ve been cuffed, lost my car and made the papers.

Coming home, it is so arse about here.
Even though the law exists that strictly prohibits it – I’ve never heard of anyone, anecdotally or otherwise, being fined or even cautioned for driving in the right hand lane.

Speed humps in 50 zones so you have to drive over them at 30 – all because a few dicks speed on that street, everyone is punished.

The never ending changes to speed limits. In most of Europe there is a sign to signify town limits – that’s the start of the town speed limit (50kph). None of this 110, 100, 90, 70 50 bull**** for 5km each side of town.

Signage in general in Oz is piss poor – and you get fined for it. Workers leaving signs up (just this weekend a 40 sign was left up in an 80 zone), putting up the restriction sign but no sign afterwards (by law you would have to do the posted speed for the roadworks until you pass another sign stating the limit – that could be miles down the road)

Local town near here has a 60 zone coming in one side and meets with a 50 zone at a t junction – depending on which way you drove into town you would be doing a different speed.

When the 60kph zones were dropped to 50kph, we were told it was to align us with Europe – so where are the 130kph zones?

Adriano

11206 posts

29 Nov 2016 4:17pm

Here here.

Here,

is another good question.

Many narrow undivided bumpy tree lined country roads are 100km/h.

Why is the same limit applied to long stretches of new, state of the art freeways with few slip road connections?

Discuss.

Ian K

4164 posts

29 Nov 2016 5:18pm

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Adriano said..
Here here.

Here,

The 11 km of road between Gerroa and Shoalhaven Heads for instance. One of the scariest sections of road in the state. The limit should be about 85. Take an extra 65 seconds to travel, so what?

www.illawarramercury.com.au/story/2978222/three-injured-in-gerroa-road-crash-video/

Shifu

QLD

1994 posts

29 Nov 2016 7:58pm

How much extra fuel would you burn cruising at 85 or 90 mph instead of 60? How much extra wear on the vehicle?

rod_bunny

1089 posts

29 Nov 2016 6:04pm

Its not the extra 65 seconds... its the completely adhoc and often contradictory messages we get given.

If the state of that road is so bad... why isn't it fixed OR yes, set the speed limit to 85!

You cant have the Govt, police RAC etc carry on about speed speed speed yet do nothing really to fix the bigger issues.

Speed is a factor, not a cause in and of itself.

The local freeway is 100kph with slips and flyover junctions, you can take one of those junctions and drive straight onto a 110 zone poxy narrow side road.
What message is sent here?? We can trust you to drive on this ** road at 110 but not on this new freeway at 110?

Its one of my pet peeves and why I've not commented until now 'cause it just gets me wound up.

UWA just put out a report on how we are being distracted by watching the speedo rather than what's happening outside.

D*ckhead will be d*ckheads - get them off the roads (none of this E plate bull** either) and let the rest of us drive with some degree of sensibility.
How many times do we hear about the guy that lost his licence and is involved in another pissy or speedy accident - only to get another 12 months added to his loss of licence (like it stopped him last time). Bang him up!!

Why when the question of changing the speed limit is asked do you get howled down?
Why cant the bar be set for driving so we don't have to take into account the lowest denominator?

We seem happy to accept the risks of letting pretty much anyone behind the wheel at the current speeds. Why is that?

rod_bunny

1089 posts

29 Nov 2016 6:25pm

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Shifu said..
How much extra fuel would you burn cruising at 85 or 90 mph instead of 60? How much extra wear on the vehicle?

Why not cruise at 40 or 30 - think of the savings man!!

What wear? The wheel bearings going faster? They're going the same distance.

175mi @ 60 is just short of 3 hours (2.92)
175mi @ 85 is just over 2 hours (2.05)

1 hour each way, each week, for a year.

2*52=104hours or 2.6 weeks @ 40 hours a week.*

What's your hourly rate? Pretty sure it will cover the extra few litres of fuel.

2.6 weeks of totally wasted time.
2.6 weeks of being exposed to the exact same dangers.

Its even longer when you take into the idea of taking a break every 2 hours.
I could be there ORRRR I could be sitting in a services having a crap coffee, with another hour still to drive!

Adriano

11206 posts

30 Nov 2016 4:37am

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Ian K said..

Adriano said..
Here here.

Here,

So what?

Well Ian, in my opinion it demonstrates the random and illogical speed limits that exist.

I agree with you, those roads should be 90 or 80 OR better still, improved for safe travel at 100km/h.

In the same sense, brand new rural freeways should be 130km/h.

Now agreeing that the danger from kangaroos is the same as in 1974 and that the laws of inertia remain unchanged, how can any rational, considered approach advocate the same speed limit as in 1974 when absolutely everything else has changed?

Everything.

Please, don't give us the nonsense about people choosing to buy crap SUV's and pimped up poser utes being a reason for an effective drop in the speed limit since 1974.

Adriano

11206 posts

30 Nov 2016 5:01am

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rod_bunny said..

WELL SAID....FORGIVE THE CAPS ROD. ADRIANO RESPONSE IN CAPS.

If the state of that road is so bad... why isn't it fixed OR yes, set the speed limit to 85!
THAT'S WHAT THE EUROPEANS DO. HERE WE PUT MORE SPEED TRAPS IN AND TREAT DRIVERS LIKE CRIMINALS.

You cant have the Govt, police RAC etc carry on about speed speed speed yet do nothing really to fix the bigger issues.
WELL YOU CAN WHEN YOU GET YOUR PRIORITIES ALL WRONG AND GO FOR THE CHEAP, REVENUE RAISING FIX.

Speed is a factor, not a cause in and of itself.
100%. THE PROPAGANDA IS JUST PLAIN WRONG IN AUSTRALIA. AS USUAL, WE THINK WE'RE RIGHT AND EVERYONE ELSE IS WRONG. EVEN WHEN THE EVIDENCE-BASED TRIAL IN THE N.T. HAS DEMONSTRATED THAT THE SIMPLE "SPEED KILLS" MANTRA IS PLAIN WRONG, EVERYONE ELSE IN AUSTRALIA CHOSES TO IGNORE IT AND CONTINUE TO BURY THEIR HEADS IN THE SAND.

The local freeway is 100kph with slips and flyover junctions, you can take one of those junctions and drive straight onto a 110 zone poxy narrow side road. What message is sent here?? We can trust you to drive on this ** road at 110 but not on this new freeway at 110?
INCONSISTENCY IS A HALLMARK OF AUSTRALIAN ROAD RULES.

Its one of my pet peeves and why I've not commented until now 'cause it just gets me wound up.

UWA just put out a report on how we are being distracted by watching the speedo rather than what's happening outside.
INDEED. I LIVED IN THE U.K. FOR FOURS YEARS AND NEVER GOT BOOKED. ALTHOUGH THE SPEED LIMIT ON MOTORWAYS WAS 70MP/H, MOST PEOPLE DROVE AT 80-90MP/H. IT ALLOWS ONE TO CONCENTRATE ON THE ROAD AND THE TRAFFIC WITHOUT BEING CONCERNED OF GOING 3KM/H OVER THE LIMIT LIKE IN THE POLICE STATE OF VICTORIA.

D*ckhead will be d*ckheads - get them off the roads (none of this E plate bull** either) and let the rest of us drive with some degree of sensibility.
How many times do we hear about the guy that lost his licence and is involved in another pissy or speedy accident - only to get another 12 months added to his loss of licence (like it stopped him last time). Bang him up!!
AGREED. IT DOESN'T MATTER WHAT THE SPEED LIMIT IS - DICKHEADS WILL BE DICKHEADS.
SO CAN WE START MAKING LAWS DEMOCRATICALLY INSTEAD OF FOR THE LOWEST COMMON DENOMINATOR DICKHEAD?

Why when the question of changing the speed limit is asked do you get howled down?
BECAUSE YOU ARE A DANGER TO SOCIETY AND YOU ARE A BABY KILLER.

Why cant the bar be set for driving so we don't have to take into account the lowest denominator?
BECAUSE WE AUSTRALIAN'S ARE GENERALLY INCAPABLE OF SUBTLE NUANCED SOLUTIONS TO ANYTHING. WE PICK THE EASIEST ONE-STOP SOLUTION AND IGNORE JUST ABOUT EVERY OTHER POSSIBILITY. WE THEN PUNISH ANYONE WHO DARES TO THINK LATERALLY AND RATIONALLY.

We seem happy to accept the risks of letting pretty much anyone behind the wheel at the current speeds. Why is that?
GOOD QUESTION.

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