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Adriano said..
Please, don't give us the nonsense about people choosing to buy crap SUV's and pimped up poser utes being a reason for an effective drop in the speed limit since 1974.

Crap SUVs??? I know you can't beat a low C of G for stability but a fully reclined seating position has its disadvantages.

For one, and you can try it this at home. Simulate your driving position in a reclining chair and a pouffe. You'll be asleep in 5 minutes, the heart has so little to do. Now simulate the SUV driving position.

As long as they pass the Moose test, stability in the unexpected/accidental manoeuvre is OK.

Some SUVs do quite well, ?Nissan Xtrail passes at 80kph!
Kuga passes at 70kph
Outlander 69kph

Reliant Rialto 42.5kph.

But the speed through the cones is an aside really, passing is the main point i.e. staying stable with a full load until loss of traction.

teknikensvarld.se/algtest/

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Shifu said..
Average German Driver:




Average Aussie driver:

Is this some kind of racism, whats your issue with the bottom chap.
Or is that you in the top selfy happy about the botox you just had injected into your anus

Now 50ks in a 50k zone is to fast.
No just keep your snotty nose kids out of my way.

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Ian K said..

Adriano said..
Please, don't give us the nonsense about people choosing to buy crap SUV's and pimped up poser utes being a reason for an effective drop in the speed limit since 1974.

Crap SUVs??? I know you can't beat a low C of G for stability but a fully reclined seating position has its disadvantages.

For one, and you can try it this at home. Simulate your driving position in a reclining chair and a pouffe. You'll be asleep in 5 minutes, the heart has so little to do. Now simulate the SUV driving position.
......

There you go again. Pick one statement and ignore everything else....Fully reclined? What does that even mean Ian? Surely you're not claiming a low C of G has any disadvantages when it comes to overall safety? Are you suggesting that a German driver in a top of the line Mercedes Benz with massive amounts of power and seats more comfortable than a sofa is in mortal danger? Sadly, I think you are. It sounds like you are advocating drivers should be uncomfortable in order to be alert. It's nonsense.

The fact is, driving at higher speeds also keeps drivers alert - especially over long distances.

What I mean about crap SUV's is that most of the small cheap pretend 4 x 4 toy cars bought by people who never go off road don't have the best road manners and handling. I'm not talking about proper 4 x 4 off road cars which are rarely driven fast on freeways in any case.

Essentially, you are advocating we make speed limits based on a normative assessment of the random choices people make when buying cars, rather than an assessment of all factors - including road quality, vehicle safety, driving to the conditions, information campaigns and driver ability?

You make claims about 40 year old cars having the similar road manners to modern cars, yet when it comes to cars designed for excellent road handling, all of a sudden they are potential death traps because they are "too comfortable".

You have this so arse about mate. Don't you see that if lawmakers base their decisions on what the public chooses to buy, we will end up with traffic laws dictated by chance? No. Laws need to encourage particular behaviour, including what cars people choose to buy for a particular purpose and how people choose to drive in a particular situation. If someone chooses to drive a proper 4 x 4 vehicle on a freeway with 130km/h limit, then they should drive at a safe speed like 100km/h - 110km/h.

You are in essence, admitting that the current practice of lawmaking based on the lowest common denominator using speed alone is better than a more democratic law making approach favoured by Europeans for instance.

It's the intellectual equivalent of saying "too hard - let's just take the easiest catch-all solution and ignore everything else".

I get the feeling that you are not interested in considering a reassessment of current laws, let alone a consideration of the facts.

A higher speed limit will not fix grid lock no matter which fantasy world you live in

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autobahn

German national speed limits have a historical association[28] with war-time restrictions and deprivations, the Nazi era, and the Soviet era in East Germany. "Free driving for free citizens" ("freie Fahrt für freie Bürger"), a slogan promoted by the German Auto Club since the 1970s,[29] is a popular slogan among those opposing autobahn speed restrictions.[30][31][32] Tarek Al-Wazir, head of the Green Party in Hesse, and currently the Hessian Transport Minister has stated that "the speed limit in Germany has a similar status as the right to bear arms in the American debate... At some point, a speed limit will become reality here, and soon we will not be able to remember the time before. It's like the smoking ban in restaurants."[33]

Hey, if you want to make people pay more attention, change their cars.

I had a 2 litre manual escort years ago with the original 1.3L diff, and the thing would be doing 4000 rpm at 110kmh. It sure kept you awake. Especially as the high volume oil pump would fill the cam cover with oil and then it would start spraying onto the exhaust manifold and start a smoke trail behind you. I never remember feeling tired in that car, but the sound got a little annoying.

I had a 5 speed VN commodore, and that too kept you alert. I think it was the need to change gears that did it. I changed to a 5 litre auto commodore, and the thing put you to sleep. Put the cruise control on and there was very little input required by the driver.

Now, lots of people drive quiet cars, and a lot of them are quite powerful. So, you get idiots wanting to cut you off, and driving as fast as they can, and because there are no cops around, who takes any notice.

I think the NSW road toll this year has already exceeded last years total, and only now are they thinking they need more police presence. Unfortunately they seem to be putting this presence around school zones. Call me a cynic, but I don't think there were too many fatalities around school zones in the last year, but it makes an awfully convenient place to fine a lot of people for doing a touch over the speed limit.

I would guess that speed cameras don't seem to have the effect that some people would argue they do. More speed cameras, and a higher road toll...

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Ian K said..
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autobahn

German national speed limits have a historical association[28] with war-time restrictions and deprivations, the Nazi era, and the Soviet era in East Germany. "Free driving for free citizens" ("freie Fahrt für freie Bürger"), a slogan promoted by the German Auto Club since the 1970s,[29] is a popular slogan among those opposing autobahn speed restrictions.[30][31][32] Tarek Al-Wazir, head of the Green Party in Hesse, and currently the Hessian Transport Minister has stated that "the speed limit in Germany has a similar status as the right to bear arms in the American debate... At some point, a speed limit will become reality here, and soon we will not be able to remember the time before. It's like the smoking ban in restaurants."[33]

I'll give you credit for finding another nonsense angle in order to avoid the big questions and the facts each and every time.

I think the key statement above is "Free driving for free citizens". A very noble democratic statement.

Instead of generalised insinuation about Germany, what about:

France - 130km/h
Austria - 130km/h
Bulgaria - 140km/h
Denmark - 130km/h
Italy - 150km/h
The Netherlands - 130km/h
Poland - 140km/h
Ukraine - 130km/h
Switzerland - 120km/h
Portugal - 120km/h
Ireland - 120km/h
Spain - 120km/h
Luxembourg - 130km/h
Slovenia - 130km/h
Croatia - 130km/h
Czech Repubic - 130km/h
Greece - 130km/h
Romania - 130km/h
Canada - 120km/h
Brazil - 120km/h
India - 120km/h
US - 129km/h
Belgium - 120km/h
Hungary - 130km/h
Northern Territory - Australia - 130km/ or unlimited ?

I suppose they are all wrong or nuts or have much better freeways than we do or all of the above.

Can't be certain but I reckon at least 2/3 of the world's drivers live in countries where the limit is 120km/h or higher.

What's you're next excuse?

^^^ Just like to add that I am with you Bono. 130km/h where it's safe = less traffic and shorter journey times.

A few more signs asking drivers to keep left wouldn't hurt either. WA drivers have an astounding capacity to spread themselves out over the lanes, regardless of how many lanes there are, or how few cars.

Only the best sections of the Autobahn have no limit.









You won't get booked doing 120kph on the second, but watch out for the soft edge, narrow breakdown lane, kangaroos, Toyota Hiluxes etc.

Ian, I refer you to AUS1111's statement.

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AUS1111 said..
^^^ Just like to add that I am with you Bono. 130km/h where it's safe = less traffic and shorter journey times.

A few more signs asking drivers to keep left wouldn't hurt either. WA drivers have an astounding capacity to spread themselves out over the lanes, regardless of how many lanes there are, or how few cars.

Sure thing AUS. Makes sense to me. We should also adopt the strict no overtaking on the left rule, police it and police those trawling along in the right lane next to another car for kilometre after kilometre.

Ian's argument is that 130km/h is not safe anywhere, despite the fact that it is deemed safe on an undivided road in the NT, about 17 other OECD countries and even safe to allow drivers to decide on the maximum speed for a 336km section in the NT.

Now for Ian to allege that there are absolutely NO sections of the fully divided and modern Hume Freeway that could not safely be driven at 130km/h frankly, defies belief. The Hume, particularly sections in NSW is state of the art motorway as good if not better than European motorways.

I really don't understand his closed mind on the issue but, perhaps his attitude summarises the inertia on the matter more generally.

If the speed limit was increased
I wouldn't have time to finish my carton
Before I got to Exmouth

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elmo said..
A higher speed limit will not fix grid lock no matter which fantasy world you live in

Funny, I don't recall ever seeing gridlock on the Hume Freeway in 15 years of driving it.

We're not talking about peak hour urban roads, no matter which fantasy world you live in.

I advocate reduced speed limits on peak arterial freeways, such as 90 or 80km/h. It works much better with heavy merging traffic.

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Adriano said..
Ian, I refer you to AUS1111's statement.

AUS1111 said..
^^^ Just like to add that I am with you Bono. 130km/h where it's safe = less traffic and shorter journey times.

A few more signs asking drivers to keep left wouldn't hurt either. WA drivers have an astounding capacity to spread themselves out over the lanes, regardless of how many lanes there are, or how few cars.

Sure thing AUS. Makes sense to me. We should also adopt the strict no overtaking on the left rule, police it and police those trawling along in the right lane next to another car for kilometre after kilometre.

Ian's argument is that 130km/h is not safe anywhere, despite the fact that it is deemed safe on an undivided road in the NT, about 17 other OECD countries and even safe to allow drivers to decide on the maximum speed for a 336km section in the NT.

Now for Ian to allege that there are absolutely NO sections of the fully divided and modern Hume Freeway that could not safely be driven at 130km/h frankly, defies belief. The Hume, particularly sections in NSW is state of the art motorway as good if not better than European motorways.

I really don't understand his closed mind on the issue but, perhaps his attitude summarises the inertia on the matter more generally.

Yep, its the constant brainwashing that EVERY K OVER IS A KILLER. So much so that I believe some states now book for 1 k over! Is that because everyone is sticking to the limit so close the only way to keep up the revenue stream is to lower the tolerance?
Look out for the next brainwashing wave - EVERY DECIMAL OVER IS DEADLY!

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Call me a cynic, but I don't think there were too many fatalities around school zones in the last year, but it makes an awfully convenient place to fine a lot of people for doing a touch over the speed limit.

I would guess that speed cameras don't seem to have the effect that some people would argue they do. More speed cameras, and a higher road toll...

School zones, another one.
Im all for a reduced speed there, but you know what Ive never seen in a schoolzone when the cops are in attendance? kids on bikes getting booked for no helmet, jaywalking, riding a bike while on the phone, parents double & triple parking while dropping off the kids.

If its ALL about safety then these would be the place to start - not someone doing 1 km over.

But Rod, when you inadvertently go over by 3km you are a potential killer - whereas when you don't use a helmet or triple park, you are a model citizen.

There's a newly created school zone where there was never one before on the Gold Coast HWY which now drops from 70 to 40 in school hours. Its been there 6 months, the school has been there, well forever. I have never seen one place so constantly targeted. The cops clean up! Yet at another school around the corner, you can talk on your phone while blocking the intersection or double parking because well the traffic only moves slow.

Today, I saw a teenager riding a push bike with no helmet, texting with one hand.

Her parents would probably be the first to scream blue murder if cars drove past a school doing 43km/h.

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Adriano said..
Today, I saw a teenager riding a push bike with no helmet, texting with one hand.

Her parents would probably be the first to scream blue murder if cars drove past a school doing 43km/h.

LOL. Only today? Only one?

You need to pay more attention on the road

Soooooo Ian, let's just clarify something. Why is it that these countries all have higher freeway speeds than we do?

What's so different?

France - 130km/h
Austria - 130km/h
Bulgaria - 140km/h
Denmark - 130km/h
Italy - 150km/h
The Netherlands - 130km/h
Poland - 140km/h
Ukraine - 130km/h
Switzerland - 120km/h Portugal - 120km/h
Ireland - 120km/h
Spain - 120km/h
Luxembourg - 130km/h
Slovenia - 130km/h
Croatia - 130km/h
Czech Republic - 130km/h
Greece - 130km/h
Romania - 130km/h
Canada - 120km/h
Brazil - 120km/h
India - 120km/h US - 129km/h
Belgium - 120km/h
Hungary - 130km/h
Northern Territory - Australia - 130km/ or unlimited ?

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Adriano said..
I mean far out, 99% of everyday stock cars had drum brakes, no ABS, weighed tonnes, no airbags, no crumple zones, no collision avoidance systems and had awful suspension and steering systems.

OI!!!

who let you into my garage?

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Adriano said..
Soooooo Ian, let's just clarify something. Why is it that these countries all have higher freeway speeds than we do?

What's so different?

I think you're fighting a losing battle Adriano. You've only convinced Aus1111, even Formula, our #1 petrol head hasn't been swayed.

I'll bet Germany's speed limit will be dropped to 120 before Australia's goes up to 120. Environmental concerns and electric cars will both pressure speed limits down. Electric motors don't have quirky sweet spots like internal combustion engines. Battery discharge per kilometre will more closely follow the theoretical square of speed. And when your battery discharges there's no quick fill up. Travel the Hume at 100kph with two 45 minute charge-ups or at 110kph with three? Boredom at 100kph won't be an issue, the car's driving itself.

Now it's batteries. Far out dude you should be a spin doctor.

I bet Australia's will be increased to 120km/h before Germany reduces it to 120km/h.

Not a worry at all.You seem to have this thing about Germany. What about the other 20 countries I listed? Are they all going to drop limits too?

No. I think as technology and safety and public awareness improves, the rest of the world will more likely increase speeds rather than decrease.

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Adriano said..
l.You seem to have this thing about Germany. What about the other 20 countries I listed?

Well Germany has a road toll comparable to ours. Some of those other countries??
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_traffic-related_death_rate

International N0. Killed per 1,000,000,000 veh·km

Country Motorways
Austria 1.73
Belgium 2.07
Czech Republic 2.85
Denmark 0.72
Finland 1.94
France 1.70
Germany 1.74
Slovenia 3.1
Switzerland 2.90
United Kingdom 1.16
United States 3.38

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autobahn

Notice you didn't give the UK with its 112kph limit and 2nd safest motorway a mention.

Denmark, the flattest country of all, has the safest freeway system. Maybe there is something in that? The unexpected isn't around a corner.

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Ian K said..

Adriano said..
Soooooo Ian, let's just clarify something. Why is it that these countries all have higher freeway speeds than we do?

What's so different?

I think you're fighting a losing battle Adriano. You've only convinced Aus1111, even Formula, our #1 petrol head hasn't been swayed.

I spend 3 hours driving in Sydney traffic each day. Its a great opportunity to see how crap some drivers are. Most are okay. A lot are unaware of their surroundings but still safe. Most don't look further ahead than their bumper, and don't understand the physics of 'what happens when something bad happens in front of me'.

So, no, I don't think I will ever argue for increasing the speed limit, even though personally I like to drive that fast.

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FormulaNova said...
I spend 3 hours driving in Sydney traffic each day.

Fark that

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Ian K said..

Adriano said..
l.You seem to have this thing about Germany. What about the other 20 countries I listed?

Well Germany has a road toll comparable to ours. Some of those other countries??
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_traffic-related_death_rate

International N0. Killed per 1,000,000,000 veh·km

Country Motorways
Austria 1.73
Belgium 2.07
Czech Republic 2.85
Denmark 0.72
Finland 1.94
France 1.70
Germany 1.74
Slovenia 3.1
Switzerland 2.90
United Kingdom 1.16
United States 3.38

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autobahn

Notice you didn't give the UK with its 112kph limit and 2nd safest motorway a mention.

Denmark, the flattest country of all, has the safest freeway system. Maybe there is something in that? The unexpected isn't around a corner.

Most of the northern European countries have an entirely different attitude to driving than here (or in the southern European states)
More about courtesy and the idea that everyone is sharing the road AND that people have different requirements to get somewhere.
The southern states is more about machismo and winning every road battle (hence the beeping etc)

Yes, UK is 112kph, but is very "loosely" enforced. By loosely I mean there is discretion - if a bunch of cars are doing 85, nothing is done. If one clown is cutting people up and driving like a dick at 85, then they get ticketed.





Drove back from Perth yesterday... some driver sat in the right lane varying speed from 80-90 from where I got stuck behind her (a long line of cars back) from the Narrows until I finally passed her (I, in the left most lane) at Leach Hwy - 10km later!!! ( I could still see her in the right lane when I got to Murdoch and the freeway is 5 lanes wide there)
The amount of agro and crazy driving to get around her was amazing - did she get a ticket??

Sitting in the right lane is just the same as doing 19kph over:

www8.austlii.edu.au/cgi-bin/viewdoc/au/legis/wa/consol_reg/rtc2000113/s113.html
Failing to keep left in a multi-lane road = 2 demerit points and $50 fine.

More than 9km/h but not more than 19 km/h = 2 demerit points and $200 Fine



Driving with Fog lights on = 1 demerit point and $100 fine.


Cyclist not wearing a helmet = $50 fine.

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Ian K said..

Adriano said..
l.You seem to have this thing about Germany. What about the other 20 countries I listed?

Well Germany has a road toll comparable to ours. Some of those other countries??
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_traffic-related_death_rate

International N0. Killed per 1,000,000,000 veh·km

Country Motorways
Austria 1.73
Belgium 2.07
Czech Republic 2.85
Denmark 0.72
Finland 1.94
France 1.70
Germany 1.74
Slovenia 3.1
Switzerland 2.90
United Kingdom 1.16
United States 3.38

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autobahn

Notice you didn't give the UK with its 112kph limit and 2nd safest motorway a mention.

Denmark, the flattest country of all, has the safest freeway system. Maybe there is something in that? The unexpected isn't around a corner.

Where did you find the rate for Australia?

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theDoctor said..

FormulaNova said...
I spend 3 hours driving in Sydney traffic each day.

Fark that

Hey, sometimes it goes up to 4 or more! I consider the 3 hours a good day.