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racerX said..




Where did you find the rate for Australia?

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_traffic-related_death_rate

That's the all-roads rate comparing Australia and Germany. Australia 7.3 per 100,000 vehicles, Germany 6.8. Didn't find the freeway only rate for Oz.

So clearly unlimited speeds and 130km/h speeds on freeways isn't leading to a rash of deaths in Germany.

Wow Ian, fancy that.

So Ian what is your take on the successful evidence-based unlimited speed trial in the NT?

Remember, it's an undivided road full of wildlife.

Remember, the death toll was higher in the restricted speed period introduced by the former Labor Govt.

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Ian K said..

That's the all-roads rate comparing Australia and Germany. Australia 7.3 per 100,000 vehicles, Germany 6.8. Didn't find the freeway only rate for Oz.

It would be interesting to know what the rate is on freeways. I knew that Germany had a higher fatality rate on freeways than the UK, what is more surprising thought is that it's not actually much higher than it is, its on a par with france with significantly lower speeds.

The UK is a good example, the 'practical' motorway limit appears appears to be higher than in australia. Traffic density is much higher, the all roads rate is significantly better, so it would interesting to compare the motorway rates. In my experience speed cameras on the UK motorway tend be the type that average your speed over a distance.

It's not all physics, as an example the dutch seem to believe the removal of lanes on roads, traffic lights, road signs and creating increased 'uncertainty' in built up areas actually reduces accidents due to changed driver behaviour, I think they have statistics to back their beliefs.

Personally I think an emphasis on driver skill and the capability of vehicles is the wrong way to look at it. In summary IMHO its the type of error, the rate of error and consequences of those errors, speed obvious makes the later much worse, but the other two are not quite so simple.

Its also worthy to note the maximum speed on a single carriage way is 96Kmh in the UK compared to 110km in Australia...

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racerX said..
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Its also worthy to note the maximum speed on a single carriage way is 96Kmh in the UK compared to 110km in Australia...

Hi Racer.

In actual fact, there is no maximum speed on a section of single carriageway in Australia (Sturt Hwy, NT), 130km on an entire single carriageway that runs 1500km in Australia (Sturt Hwy, NT again) and 110km/h on most single carriageway highways in South Australia.

So the argument against any change on state of the art freeways I think is fickle and one-dimensional.

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Adriano said..
So clearly unlimited speeds and 130km/h speeds on freeways isn't leading to a rash of deaths in Germany.

Wow Ian, fancy that.

So Ian what is your take on the successful evidence-based unlimited speed trial in the NT?

Remember, it's an undivided road full of wildlife.

Remember, the death toll was higher in the restricted speed period introduced by the former Labor Govt.

No recorded fatalities in 12 months on a 276 km section. Death rates are best expressed per billion km travelled. It's 1.74 deaths per billion km on the autobahn. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autobahn

Even 1 billion km travelled is not really significant if you're looking for a number like 1.74, but if it was that'd be 1,000,000,000 / 276 trips needed or 14 cars per minute during the trial period, or one every 4.3 seconds. Haven't travelled the Stuart Hwy since 1977 but back then another car was a rare sight. My take is the trial was not long enough to be statistically significant.

Put another way, every person in the NT, (there's 244,00 of them), would each have to drive that section of the road 15 times in a year, ( at speed!) for the trial to be of any significance.

That is all wishful thinking, if the speed limit was more flexible, the boys in blue could no longer park up in a downhill section and collect $100 because you exceeded the speed limit by 4 km, that is a massive revenue drop for the government so it will never be an option.

It is sad and absolutely unnecessary, driving in Europe is amazing because people don't seem to derive an enjoyment from blocking others in their self-righteousness state safe in the knowledge that they are doing the speed limit.

Even if the speed limit was increased, there would be no benefit unless people learn to drive.

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Ian K said..

Adriano said..
So clearly unlimited speeds and 130km/h speeds on freeways isn't leading to a rash of deaths in Germany.

Wow Ian, fancy that.

So Ian what is your take on the successful evidence-based unlimited speed trial in the NT?

Remember, it's an undivided road full of wildlife.

Remember, the death toll was higher in the restricted speed period introduced by the former Labor Govt

No recorded fatalities in 12 months on a 276 km section. Death rates are best expressed per billion km travelled. It's 1.74 deaths per billion km on the autobahn. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autobahn

Even 1 billion km travelled is not really significant if you're looking for a number like 1.74, but if it was that'd be 1,000,000,000 / 276 trips needed or 14 cars per minute during the trial period, or one every 4.3 seconds. Haven't travelled the Stuart Hwy since 1977 but back then another car was a rare sight. My take is the trial was not long enough to be statistically significant.

Put another way, every person in the NT, (there's 244,00 of them), would each have to drive that section of the road 15 times in a year, ( at speed!) for the trial to be of any significance.

So once again Ian, you think you are right and everyone who participates in a different approach to freeway driving is wrong. You are the master statistician now.

I thought you were a lumberjack?

You are basically saying the NT government has it wrong - based on your own innuendo alone.

I say how about you leave analysis of the statistics to the experts?

What about the 16 countries that had 130km/h speed limits and above? They all have billion-kilometre statistics.

Is it all about death statistics?

Does it always have to be about making excuses for the nanny state with you?

Mate, if you found another bull crap angle to prosecute I wouldn't be surprised - you've found a dozen already.

^^ You've counted Australia as one of the 16 countries with speed limits 130 km/h+ and you're calling bull crap angles? That's about as rich as calling out a bloke's job in relation to his understanding of statistics.

Here, check out some Dash Cam Owners Australia vids to see just how many idiots you are sharing the road with. There's a kook at 4:54 with four lanes in one direction:

Actually, I haven't counted Australia as one of the countries with a 130km/h speed limit.

That's the whole point of the thread.

If Australia had a reasonable freeway speed limit, like 120-130km/h, we wouldn't be having this discussion.

It's like the same sex marriage debate. If people just woke up to the reality that chanting speed kills ad nauseam and got with the times, the issue would go away.

...

Idiots, will be idiots. I see a lot of plain old negligence in that video - not accidents caused by excessive speed.

Speed contributes to the result - but is rarely the root cause of accidents.

Advocating speed reductions as a knee jerk reaction to all traffic issues achieves nothing but revenue raising, frustrated drivers, a lack of respect for the authorities, distraction due to constant speedo monitoring and more idiots taking risks.

Are you advocating we make all laws for idiots - the lowest common denominator?

Are you claiming that about 15 or so other countries are run by and full of idiots because they have more rational freeway speed limits?

All I'm asking for is a rethink. Are you even against this? A flat no! Bury head in sand?

A smart thing to do would be to run a 12 month 130km/h trial on a known safe stretch of the Hume Freeway between major popular roadside services, during daylight hours only. Say a 100km stretch like Gundagai North to Yass services. Such a good stretch of road.

Are you against even this approach?

Aus is #16 on your list in the 130+ range.

I didn't post that video to point out that speed causes accidents. It shows clearly that idiots often do, and there's a ton of other videos just like it. It really doesn't matter what the root cause of an accident is, when it happens speed always makes it worse.

And no, I'm not advocating making laws for the idiots, I think current speed limits are too fast for the idiots and too slow for you. Mostly they're fine with me.

I don't know the Hume Freeway or the stretches you mention, so I can't comment on those. I would point out that your first post indicated you'd like to see a limitless thing in Aus as they have in Germany. That I wouldn't ever agree to, it's the idiot thing again. Like this driver not reading the congestion ahead as a sign to slow down on the Autobahn:

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ThinkaBowtit said..
Aus is #16 on your list in the 130+ range.
...

I was referring to the NT so don't be silly, please.

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ThinkaBowtit said..
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It really doesn't matter what the root cause of an accident is, when it happens speed always makes it worse.
...

Using that logic, one could argue that we should reduce speed limits constantly until we are walking again and using spears and bows and arrows to get dinner.

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ThinkaBowtit said..
...
And no, I'm not advocating making laws for the idiots, I think current speed limits are too fast for the idiots and too slow for you. Mostly they're fine with me.
....

Speed limits will always be too fast for the idiots. Making laws for the idiots is not good policy. All I'm asking for is a review and a trial to get in line with other similar countries.

While we're at it, a public information campaign and driver training would do well because frankly, Australian drivers are rubbish compared to Europeans. I drove on UK motorways for four years and went with the flow - which was always around 80-85mp/h or 128km/h - 136km/h. As long as everyone was moving safely together, no one ever got booked. I never saw a serious accident in that time.

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ThinkaBowtit said..
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I don't know the Hume Freeway or the stretches you mention, so I can't comment on those. I would point out that your first post indicated you'd like to see a limitless thing in Aus as they have in Germany. That I wouldn't ever agree to, it's the idiot thing again.

I said unlimited or increased to a reasonable amount - say 130km/h. I certainly didn't mean unlimited or 130km/h everywhere - obviously.

I don't know how many times I need to stress it, idiots will be idiots and having speed limits makes no difference to idiots - therefore, a reasonable speed for a modern road that takes into account 40 years of advancements in car safety, engineering, better roads and education campaigns sounds perfectly rational to me.

I asked Ian this many times and all he could do was claim that cars and roads are the same now as they were 40 years ago when the 110km/h sped limit was introduced. He then did the usual knee jerk thing and claim that the speed limit is imposed for the safety of people who make poor car choices - like SUV's with poor handling and braking ability.

Quite frankly, that is nonsense.

Theres clearly alot of bogans and idiots in Oz who cant get out of bed let alone drive like the euros.
Whilst the handful of excellent drivers are all on this thread.

You may have a point.

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Adriano said..

While we're at it, a public information campaign and driver training would do well because frankly, Australian drivers are rubbish compared to Europeans.

Now you're getting it.

Edit: Germany are discussing lowering their speed limits. www.theguardian.com/news/datablog/2013/may/13/speed-limits-reduce-number-road-deaths

Getting what mate?

I'm interested in 130km/h speed limits on rural freeways. That's all.

I understand Germany may be talking about their unlimited speed zones.

It will not matter in a few years time when cars are driverless and trains travel at 600kmh

www.theguardian.com/world/2015/apr/21/japans-maglev-train-notches-up-new-world-speed-record-in-test-run

www.google.com.au/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=7&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwi4tJmDqdnQAhVLHZQKHYZyDyIQFgg_MAY&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.aph.gov.au%2FDocumentStore.ashx%3Fid%3Dbb8568ee-b1c1-4f47-adb2-dc2b73eaa6c4%26subId%3D304019&usg=AFQjCNFoviwnM7ZuLj15i6aYMvqjhte-Gw

www.monash.edu/__data/assets/pdf_file/0020/217370/atsb216.pdf

Sorry about the link for the first paper

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bazl said..
It will not matter in a few years time when cars are driverless and trains travel at 600kmh

www.theguardian.com/world/2015/apr/21/japans-maglev-train-notches-up-new-world-speed-record-in-test-run

take a drive on an undivided country road with one line each way with 100 k/h speed limit...

watch oncoming road trains and ask yourself: "would I like to be in a driverless car right now at this moment ?"..be honest

Most people here can't control their cars at 100 km per hour ! Personally I would rather have laws in place to deter the nut case's

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dmitri said..

take a drive on an undivided country road with one line each way with 100 k/h speed limit...

watch oncoming road trains and ask yourself: "would I like to be in a driverless car right now at this moment ?"..be honest

Took a drive on the well used undivided country road between Townsville and Ingham recently. The sun was at the ideal angle to read the faces of the drivers in the oncoming cars. I had noticed one vacant look on a driver's face that initiated my little survey. Not too many looks of concentration! A bit of a concern! I'm sure I'm better off driving the car myself but I'd prefer all the other cars on the road were driverless.

"..be honest "


??? OK, maybe I'm not being honest about myself here.

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Ian K said..

??? OK, maybe I'm not being honest about myself here.

One of the most honest things you've ever said here.

good point, IAN..
there was a one good thing as drivers wave at oncoming cars on the country roads in WA.. I liked it very much when driving around WA..kept me concentrated on a road.... not sure if it still exists.. last time I drove on WA rural roads was in pre smart phones era

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elmo said..

www.monash.edu/__data/assets/pdf_file/0020/217370/atsb216.pdf

Sorry about the link for the first paper

An excellent study.

Essentially it concludes that raising the limit to 120km/h for the whole Hume Freeway and limiting trucks to 100km/h would have no overall social impact.

Raising the limit to 130km/h and limiting trucks to 100km/h would have a very small impact on road trauma figures and no measurable impact on economic costs.

So, as is commonly understood, trucks are one of the biggest factors in the cause of rural freeway accidents - not speed alone.

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Adriano said..

elmo said..

www.monash.edu/__data/assets/pdf_file/0020/217370/atsb216.pdf

Sorry about the link for the first paper

An excellent study.

Essentially it concludes that raising the limit to 120km/h for the whole Hume Freeway and limiting trucks to 100km/h would have no overall social impact.

Raising the limit to 130km/h and limiting trucks to 100km/h would have a very small impact on road trauma figures and no measurable impact on economic costs.

So, as is commonly understood, trucks are one of the biggest factors in the cause of rural freeway accidents - not speed alone.

Seems like the "Study" is based on 'Assumptions' listed at the start of the report.

Here's an 'Assumptiom' "If the speed limit was reduced to 40k's on the Hume, it would make it safer. Therefore increasing the speed increases the risk."

I always thought you'd have to be a special breed of asshole to be a highway patrol officer.

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ThinkaBowtit said..
Aus is #16 on your list in the 130+ range.

I didn't post that video to point out that speed causes accidents. It shows clearly that idiots often do, and there's a ton of other videos just like it. It really doesn't matter what the root cause of an accident is, when it happens speed always makes it worse.

And no, I'm not advocating making laws for the idiots, I think current speed limits are too fast for the idiots and too slow for you. Mostly they're fine with me.

I don't know the Hume Freeway or the stretches you mention, so I can't comment on those. I would point out that your first post indicated you'd like to see a limitless thing in Aus as they have in Germany. That I wouldn't ever agree to, it's the idiot thing again. Like this driver not reading the congestion ahead as a sign to slow down on the Autobahn:

Your Youtube video of the idiot on the autobahn shows us why those speeds seem great, but in reality there are idiots. Watching that video, I was thinking, slow down now, when I could see more than 1 car, let alone the relative large amount of time between seeing the stoppage and when the guy decides to slow down . I guess that shows that you do need to cater for the lowest common denominator.

My main country driving is to the nearest capital city , it is 1400km's
at 130 it woul take a min of 12.7 hrs flat out
at 110 it woul take 10.7 neither allows for any stopping or slowing down
all of which in reality will happen
I usually do the drive in 2 sections , sleeping at about the half way point.
Some parts of the road are straight as far as you can see, even at 80 km's
comming over a small rise and finding cattle on the road is a scary ,dangerous
situation, let alone MOST of the roads are just wide enough to pass road trains which are every where.
Can't understand all the talk about something that might save 20 minutes in an average small (couple of hour journey).
I don't need to be that much of a hurry.
Take a chill pill, drive to the limits, and think how better, you could have used all that time you have WASTED on here .
Obviously you have put many hrs into this, coud'nt that have been put to more fun use on the water eh!

The reality is Australian bureaucracy likes slow thinkers, and drivers.
The reasoning is simple.
Higher speed = higher potential for accident.
So if an accident occurs, then speed must be too high.
We'll park the revenue aspect of it.

Whereas the German reasoning is, an idiot had an accident, lets make the car safer and try and teach idiots to driver better.

Australian reasoning: Speeding kills.
German reasoning: Stupidity kills.

I've had enough lectures from Judges about speeding to know not to argue with them when they say "There's no safe speeding" because they will increase your fine. I got fined $2172 and lost my license for SUPPOSEDLY doing 112kmh on a 8 lane freeway limit was/is 80... I wasn't allowed to argue my case because I wasn't an expert in LIDAR and police procedures, there's legislation to prevent it.
Don't say:
1.- speeding is an arbitrary term.
2.- the international space station travels at 27,600 km/h with no ill effects.
3.- donkeys run faster than the speed limit, and humans can run 45kmh
4.- what if a truck is going the speed limit, and is up your ass.
5.- Overtaking at +3-5kmh is very dangerous.
6.- Taking my license away will do more harm to the community bcos my wife will be driving me around.... she has a perfect record, but can't park, can't drive at night, rides the farking breaks, has had 3 accidents, does her makeup while driving, drives with no shoes (she wears high heels) and can't see a red light until it's in her face! (I love her though)
7.- Don't even bother saying anything about how inaccurate LiDAR guns are, or reflective surfaces, or sweeping effect.

Do say:
1.- Yes your honour, I will forever remember your wise words.

So just like those muslim countries have some farked up logic about drugs, Australia has some farked up logic about driving... it's a cultural thing. Oh my you were doing 112kmh on an 8 lane walled/fenced up freeway call ch7 news!

Australians have come to accept parking and traffic tickets, whereas other countries accept other crap. We don't understand that if the majority are falling foul of the law, your not doing wrong, but it's the law which is in the wrong.

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Cassa said..
Can't understand all the talk about something that might save 20 minutes

The problem is staying conscious while doing it, not about saving time. If your doing a task that doesn't engage your mind, your mind will tend to drift.
Travelling at 70kmh on a road which can easily handle 180kmh will bore some people, causing them to become distracted... so the will either get angry, daydream or play with their phone... or even watch a movie.

Exactly. That's what happens on the Hume Freeway while one is droning along at 110km/h.