Select to expand quote

Poida said..>>>The cost of fossil fuels doesn't cover or factor in the environmental damage that will be caused with the population expected in the future, if they are still using fossil fuel. Imagine double and triple the current earths population still using fossil fuel for transport and energy?

That is the basic problem, and why the carbon tax was proposed, so there'd be an even playing field. It's the same argument that's used for the tobacco tax. It reimburses the gov't for healthcare costs caused by smoking. In theory the carbon tax should have gone towards mitigating the effects of climate change.

Select to expand quote

azymuth said..

japie said..
The more you delve into this the more you realise that many people are being had.
Big time had.

No, I think you've been had - The Heartland Institute is a joke

climateinvestigations.org/who-is-paying-for-heartland-institute-climate-denial-palooza/

Of course. They forged those newspaper reports from a century ago!

Mate, all throughout written history floods and famine, floods and famine.

Geological records indicate the same. Water erosion on the Sphinx.

Trees covering Greenland in days of yore. Grapes in Scotland.

The only thing that does not change is change.

And we're going to iron it out with solar panels!

Yeah, right!

Select to expand quote

japie said..Mate, all throughout written history floods and famine, floods and famine.

Geological records indicate the same. Water erosion on the Sphinx.
Trees covering Greenland in days of yore. Grapes in Scotland.
The only thing that does not change is change.

I reckon climate scientists are probably aware of your examples



From an article in Nature - references below.

Climate fluctuations in the past varied from region to region.
During the Little Ice Age it was generally colder across the whole world but not everywhere at the same time.
The peak periods of pre-industrial warm and cold periods occurred at different times in different places.
The now-debunked hypothesis of climate phases occurring at the same time across the globe came about because of an impression that is defined by the climate history of Europe and North America.
In the absence of data from other parts of the earth, this notion was applied to the whole planet, raising expectations that relatively cold or warm periods throughout the last 2,000 years were globally synchronous phenomena.
But it has now been shown that this was not the case.

The authors of a study in Nature see the explanation for that as being that regional climates in pre-industrial times were primarily influenced by random fluctuations within the climate systems themselves.
External factors such as volcanic eruptions or solar activity were not intense enough to cause markedly warm or cold temperatures across the whole world for decades, or even centuries.
The researchers relied on a database from the international research consortium PAGES, which provides a comprehensive overview of climate data from the last 2,000 years, for their investigation of five pre-industrial climate epochs.
In addition to tree rings, it also includes data from ice cores, lake sediments and corals.
To really put the results to the test, the team led by Raphael Neukom analyzed these data sets using six different statistical models -- more than ever before.
This allowed for the calculation of the probability of extremely warm or cold decades and centuries, and not just the calculation of absolute temperatures.

The result was that no globally coherent picture emerged during the periods being investigated. "The minimum and maximum temperatures were different in different areas," says Raphael Neukom.
So thermal extremes across the world cannot be inferred from regional temperature phenomena like the oft-mentioned "Medieval Warm Period" in Europe and North America.


The current warm period is happening across the world for the first time.
The results look very different for recent history. Both studies show that the warmest period of the last 2,000 years was most likely in the 20th century.
They also show that this was the case for more than 98 percent of the surface of the earth. This shows -- once again -- that modern climate change cannot be explained by random fluctuations, but by anthropogenic emissions of CO2 and other greenhouse gases.
What we didn't know until now is that not only average global temperatures in the 20th century are higher than ever before in at least 2,000 years, but also that a warming period is now affecting the whole planet at the same time for the first time.
And the speed of global warming has never been as high as it is today.


Journal References:
Neukom, R., Steiger, Nathan, G?mez-Navarro, J. J., Wang, J., & Werner, J. P. No evidence for globally coherent warm and cold periods over the pre-industrial Common Era. Nature, 2019 DOI: 1038/s41586-019-1401-2
PAGES 2k Consortium. Consistent multidecadal variability in global temperature reconstructions and simulations over the Common Era. Nature Geoscience, 2019 DOI: 1038/s41561-019-0400-0

I don't know Azy.

I am big on observation. As an example when I look outside if it's pissing with rain I know I will need a brolly or a raincoat if I have to go outside. And welly's if it's very wet.

Likewise if it's very hot. A hat maybe? Stay inside. Buy an air conditioner?

In the last almost 40 years since I've been in Aus I had air conditioning in a house I rented in Albury. Which I turned on in the summer of 83/84 when we had a warm period where the temperature did not drop below 30 at night for two solid weeks.

Ive not used one since.

Ive not felt the urge to toddle on out and buy a brolly or welly's because I am constantly wet either. Pretty much same old same old.

And I work outside.

So I should know.

Nup. I think I'll stave off going into climate crisis mode until I start noticing that something unusual is happening.

Not even tempted to go out and buy a hat!

Another frog gradually warming up. One day you'll croak and it won't matter

Greta getting triggered when CO2 emitter TC falls

Select to expand quote

japie said..
I don't know Azy.

I am big on observation. As an example when I look outside if it's pissing with rain I know I will need a brolly or a raincoat if I have to go outside. And welly's if it's very wet.

Likewise if it's very hot. A hat maybe? Stay inside. Buy an air conditioner?

In the last almost 40 years since I've been in Aus I had air conditioning in a house I rented in Albury. Which I turned on in the summer of 83/84 when we had a warm period where the temperature did not drop below 30 at night for two solid weeks.

Ive not used one since.

Ive not felt the urge to toddle on out and buy a brolly or welly's because I am constantly wet either. Pretty much same old same old.

And I work outside.

So I should know.

Nup. I think I'll stave off going into climate crisis mode until I start noticing that something unusual is happening.

Not even tempted to go out and buy a hat!

Really? So you reckon that YOUR observations are perfect, and those of many, many other people are just ****? Wow, you really are special!

Your personal memories should over-rule the personal memories and the records of the farmers I know, who now sow later because their records show that the climate has changed! Yes, you are a super-human!

Your experience in one corner of one part of the world is worth more than all the measurements climate scientists rely on? Wow, you are a God!!!

So you should know because you work outside, but the farmers who reckon you are wrong who also work outside are morons? So too are the scientists?

Can I just worship at your feet since you are such an amazing being that what YOU experience in YOUR life is so much more important that measurements or the experience of other people?

Select to expand quote

petermac33 said..
Come on decrepit,there are around two and a half million people in the Perth metro area.

Many of them who are old enough.......sorry ALL of them who are old enough will testify that the Swan River in the last 23 years has not encroached 25 feet on to the beaches around the river. In fact it has not encroached at all in this period. This basic fact alone proves beyond a shadow of a doubt you are living a lie. A monstrous,monstrous lie I might add.

The trust in their data overrides observation,intelligence and basic commonsense.

Its how they are able to get away with it,just like with 911.


Fear not the path of truth, fear the lack of people walking on it.

- Robert Francis Kennedy

Yes, because the Swan River is the only place that matters. And siltation and other effects that may counter-act any sea level rise in one place don't exist.

Select to expand quote

TonyAbbott said..

groucho said..
Hehe yeah well it is a "socialist left-wing" conspiracy after all.

Not sure I would call it a conspiracy

It is not a secret

The socialist are quite open about wanting a high taxing one-world totalitarian socialist government.

Why do you feel the need to lie?

"The socialist(s)" are many millions of people, of many differing views. A very, very small proportion of them - none that I have actually heard of - may want "a one-world totalitarian" government, but what you wrote was a complete and utter lie.

Why can you not discuss things honestly? Why do you have this compulsion to lie, and why can't you be smart enough to make up lies that are believable?

Gold ^^

Select to expand quote

Chris 249 said..
Why can you not discuss things honestly? Why do you have this compulsion to lie, and why can't you be smart enough to make up lies that are believable?

Because he's Tony Abbott?

Select to expand quote

azymuth said..

japie said..
The more you delve into this the more you realise that many people are being had.
Big time had.

No, I think you've been had - The Heartland Institute is a joke

climateinvestigations.org/who-is-paying-for-heartland-institute-climate-denial-palooza/

They are propagandists for hire by any industrial or right wing cause. They where one of the propagandists behind tobacco.
rationalwiki.org/wiki/Heartland_Institute

Select to expand quote

Chris 249 said..

japie said..
I don't know Azy.

I am big on observation. As an example when I look outside if it's pissing with rain I know I will need a brolly or a raincoat if I have to go outside. And welly's if it's very wet.

Likewise if it's very hot. A hat maybe? Stay inside. Buy an air conditioner?

In the last almost 40 years since I've been in Aus I had air conditioning in a house I rented in Albury. Which I turned on in the summer of 83/84 when we had a warm period where the temperature did not drop below 30 at night for two solid weeks.

Ive not used one since.

Ive not felt the urge to toddle on out and buy a brolly or welly's because I am constantly wet either. Pretty much same old same old.

And I work outside.

So I should know.

Nup. I think I'll stave off going into climate crisis mode until I start noticing that something unusual is happening.

Not even tempted to go out and buy a hat!

Really? So you reckon that YOUR observations are perfect, and those of many, many other people are just ****? Wow, you really are special!

Your personal memories should over-rule the personal memories and the records of the farmers I know, who now sow later because their records show that the climate has changed! Yes, you are a super-human!

Your experience in one corner of one part of the world is worth more than all the measurements climate scientists rely on? Wow, you are a God!!!

So you should know because you work outside, but the farmers who reckon you are wrong who also work outside are morons? So too are the scientists?

Can I just worship at your feet since you are such an amazing being that what YOU experience in YOUR life is so much more important that measurements or the experience of other people?

Yes. I can see why Greta Thunberg appeals to you.

Greta Thunberg has really triggered the extreme right wing believers. Maybe she has squashed all the propaganda being spread by the extreme right?

Select to expand quote

Poida said..
Greta Thunberg has really triggered the extreme right wing believers. Maybe she has squashed all the propaganda being spread by the extreme right?

yep, and also the the old blokes just won't be told anything by some foreign girl........can you imagine the brain explosions inf she was a brown muslim girl.........**** me!!!!!!

500 000 people march in Montreal protesting climate change.

Montreal has a outer metro population of 4.1million - so that's one in eight of the population. Fark,they must believe it's going to end Great job Greta

If the claimed half a million figure is even close to the truth - we are easily duped.

"There seems to be a plan here. The plan is the financialization of the entire world economy using fear of an end of world scenario to reach arbitrary aims such as "net-zero greenhouse gas emissions."

journal-neo.org/2019/09/25/climate-and-the-money-trail/

Plagiarized from Pyschomub's post in Heavy Weather.

It has absolutely nothing to do with leftist agendas no matter how hard Strawman tries to convince you otherwise. This is all about financialisation of the entire world economy. If you follow the money trail this is the only conclusion you can reach.

Money don't lie!

People lie for money however.

Select to expand quote

japie said..
"There seems to be a plan here. The plan is the financialization of the entire world economy using fear of an end of world scenario to reach arbitrary aims such as "net-zero greenhouse gas emissions."

journal-neo.org/2019/09/25/climate-and-the-money-trail/

Plagiarized from Pyschomub's post in Heavy Weather.

It has absolutely nothing to do with leftist agendas no matter how hard Strawman tries to convince you otherwise. This is all about financialisation of the entire world economy. If you follow the money trail this is the only conclusion you can reach.

Money don't lie!

People lie for money however.

money don't lie, with i could say the same about some people.

it took me 2 minutes to find out who "New Eastern Outlook" are and what they peddle.

Is that so Strawman?

It is standard practice to denigrate the source of the information on both sides of the political spectrum. I notice you didn't address any of the content.

The reason you did not is because most of it is factual.

For instance this paragraph here:

"In 2016 the TCFD along with the City of London Corporation and the UK Government initiated the Green Finance Initiative, aiming to channel trillions of dollars to "green" investments. The central bankers of the FSB nominated 31 people to form the TCFD. Chaired by billionaire Michael Bloomberg of the financial wire, it includes key people from JP MorganChase; from BlackRock-one of the world's biggest asset managers with almost $7 trillion; Barclays Bank; HSBC, the London-Hong Kong bank repeatedly fined for laundering drug and other black funds; Swiss Re, the world's second largest reinsurance; China's ICBC bank; Tata Steel, ENI oil, Dow Chemical, mining giant BHP Billington and David Blood of Al Gore's Generation Investment LLC. In effect it seems the foxes are writing the rules for the new Green Hen House. "

All but the last sixteen words of that paragraph are factual.

So in effect what you do is similar to what a kid does when putting their hands over their ears and chanting loudly "not listening, not listening" in order to avoid hearing something they don't want to hear.

hang on, we have tonyabbott saying its the socialists and you saying its a conspiracy of the wealthy elite using climate change to re-order the economy.

At least the Liberal Party leader, Scott Morrison, acknowledges there is actually a thing called climate change and that Australia is doing its best to counteract it. That was a very small step.

Without a doubt it is the wealthy elite who are at the bottom of all this. And we are talking about the very wealthy elite. Not povos like the Packers.

What the wealthy elite want for the world is a brand of socialism which no one in their right mind would want to experience. Because it is not about socialism it is about ultimate control of every human being. How they behave, what function they perform in society and what they spend their digital rewards on assuming their social credit allows them any digital rewards.

This is about the wealthy elite insuring that there is never again a risk that their control is put at risk.

And it is a long term plan and it has been in place for a long time already.

I've been mentioning this for years but no one seemed to cotton on!

Redistribute wealth via a carbon tax on industry to the poorer or poorest countries. Australia has the highest carbon tax in the world I believe,no wonder we lost our car industry.

Order out of chaos.

Select to expand quote

japie said..

Chris 249 said..

japie said..
I don't know Azy.

I am big on observation. As an example when I look outside if it's pissing with rain I know I will need a brolly or a raincoat if I have to go outside. And welly's if it's very wet.

Likewise if it's very hot. A hat maybe? Stay inside. Buy an air conditioner?

In the last almost 40 years since I've been in Aus I had air conditioning in a house I rented in Albury. Which I turned on in the summer of 83/84 when we had a warm period where the temperature did not drop below 30 at night for two solid weeks.

Ive not used one since.

Ive not felt the urge to toddle on out and buy a brolly or welly's because I am constantly wet either. Pretty much same old same old.

And I work outside.

So I should know.

Nup. I think I'll stave off going into climate crisis mode until I start noticing that something unusual is happening.

Not even tempted to go out and buy a hat!

Really? So you reckon that YOUR observations are perfect, and those of many, many other people are just ****? Wow, you really are special!

Your personal memories should over-rule the personal memories and the records of the farmers I know, who now sow later because their records show that the climate has changed! Yes, you are a super-human!

Your experience in one corner of one part of the world is worth more than all the measurements climate scientists rely on? Wow, you are a God!!!

So you should know because you work outside, but the farmers who reckon you are wrong who also work outside are morons? So too are the scientists?

Can I just worship at your feet since you are such an amazing being that what YOU experience in YOUR life is so much more important that measurements or the experience of other people?

Yes. I can see why Greta Thunberg appeals to you.

I haven't watched anything she says, or read anything she has written. Why must you make such a strawman?

The fact is that Japie's claim was that because HE has not noticed anything unusual, there must be no change in the climate in the world. That is just ridiculous. No matter whether you believe in climate change or not, it is silly to claim that one person's experience in one corner of the world is proof of what could be happening across the planet.

If Japie's claim that any one person's experience could prove what is happening with the world's climate is true, then his experience must be wrong - because my neighbours are saying that they have never experienced a drought like the one we are experiencing, and that there has been no such drought in recorded history here. So if you want to use Japie's logic, then climate change IS happening.

Select to expand quote

petermac33 said..
I've been mentioning this for years but no one seemed to cotton on!

Redistribute wealth via a carbon tax on industry to the poorer or poorest countries. Australia has the highest carbon tax in the world I believe,no wonder we lost our car industry.

Order out of chaos.

Australia has the highest carbon tax in the world?

Really? I thought it was repealed by the Coalition government?

If nothing else, don't you remember when Electricity prices all suddenly got cheaper and we all marvelled at the incredible efforts of Mr Abbott? He saved us from a huge carbon tax. I am sure my electricity bill is less outrageously expensive than before!

Just wait till the next little meterorite or volcano will next let rip .
Plasic bags or plasic straws or money won't change earths thing .
We are on our borrowed time , not earths , earth don't care .
Best I can hope for is my life and then my kids .

Select to expand quote

japie said..
What the wealthy elite want for the world is a brand of socialism...

Honestly I've written a dozen things, and changed them. I can't explain how wrong that is.

"Rich capitalists, the mega wealthy, are behind a push for ....socialism."

Select to expand quote

evlPanda said..

japie said..
What the wealthy elite want for the world is a brand of socialism...

Honestly I've written a dozen things, and changed them. I can't explain how wrong that is.

"Rich capitalists, the mega wealthy, are behind a push for ....socialism."

I did exactly the same thing. The idea that ultra capitalists really want Socialism is one of the stupidest ideas I've ever heard.

Select to expand quote

Imax1 said..
Just wait till the next little meterorite or volcano will next let rip .
Plasic bags or plasic straws or money won't change earths thing .
We are on our borrowed time , not earths , earth don't care .
Best I can hope for is my life and then my kids .

Don't worry dude, the sun will keep rising for a billion more years after we are all gone.

Select to expand quote

evlPanda said..

japie said..
What the wealthy elite want for the world is a brand of socialism...

Honestly I've written a dozen things, and changed them. I can't explain how wrong that is.

"Rich capitalists, the mega wealthy, are behind a push for ....socialism."

Debbie O'Hara sums it up quite succinctly: newswithviews.com/Ohara/debbie27.htm