www.news.com.au/technology/online/nbn/real-world-test-of-5g-network-showed-speeds-60-times-faster-than-those-offered-by-the-nbn/news-story/7b4dbba37afa17c032fd7d94a3e04ffa

Been on the NBN for a while now with iiNet. Plan is supposed to be up to 12mbps and initially it was good, not 12 but faster than 4g.

For many months now it's been rubbish and iiNet just keep blaming nbn co.

Just did a speed test now and my 'nbn' is 2.41mbps vs 7.21mbps on 4g. What a joke, feeling ripped off!

If this is the best the nbn can offer, bring on other options!

Select to expand quote

Ezric said..
www.news.com.au/technology/online/nbn/real-world-test-of-5g-network-showed-speeds-60-times-faster-than-those-offered-by-the-nbn/news-story/7b4dbba37afa17c032fd7d94a3e04ffa

When I read that on news last night I thought about pre-empting this and posting it myself, but we will go through the same old arguments about why its better and why its not. It was discussed even before this latest article.

In that article they talk about huge data rates to a racecar on a circuit, which is not really a good analogy for deploying wireless in an urban environment with lots of obstacles and a requirement to service comparatively large areas with a single cell.

So, if 5G is 60 times faster than 'NBN', it just means that at 61 or more users in the same radius, NBN is capable of higher throughput.

I guess in 20 years people will be standing back and saying 'why did we waste money on an NBN in 2007 when 14G is available and can deliver a terabit to my handset'... yet we will still be watching Netflix at 6Mbps.

Select to expand quote

stoff said..
Been on the NBN for a while now with iiNet. Plan is supposed to be up to 12mbps and initially it was good, not 12 but faster than 4g.

For many months now it's been rubbish and iiNet just keep blaming nbn co.

Just did a speed test now and my 'nbn' is 2.41mbps vs 7.21mbps on 4g. What a joke, feeling ripped off!

If this is the best the nbn can offer, bring on other options!

I think the problem with NBN is that providers are trying to minimise their access connection speeds per area, which ultimately affects your speed, and with things like netflix and other streaming programs, the average is much higher than it was 5 years ago. The good thing is that its easy to increase the available capacity for the ISP, but it will cost them more.

It sounds like NBNCo will have to do some work on the pricing for this, or ultimately market forces will drive customer behavior. If there are better typical speeds with some ISPs, customers will switch.

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kiteboy dave said..

Straight up light speed fibre to your door, nothing beats it.

Yep. Perfect reception. Light speed. Beat that.

While wireless is more convenient it simply cannot be as good. Ever. But... it can be good enough, as long as you have line-of-sight. And looking just a little into the future is the Internet Of Things. That is a bazillion little devices for everything you can think of all connected to the internet. Have you ever tried to use your mobile data while at a big event? That something called "congestion". Imagine the Internet Of Things all yelling at the same time into space. It's going to be super congested. It's going to get slow.

I dunno what the **** people have against fibre optic cables. Hard lines are always going to be required for the backbone of the internet. You might as well be as well connected to it as possible. It's that simple.

Good points about PING times too kiteboy. This is very important when working remotely. Much more important that high data speeds; I work from home seamlessly on only 12mbps and a ping of ~25.

That is; down/up speeds are not always the most important factor. It depends what you are doing. Think about it.

___

I've recently got NBN via Foxtel cable and the ping is fn awesome. I sometimes see < 10ms.

Ping has started.

PING www.google.com.au (216.58.199.67): 56 data bytes
64 bytes from 216.58.199.67: icmp_seq=0 ttl=56 time=21.793 ms
64 bytes from 216.58.199.67: icmp_seq=1 ttl=56 time=24.693 ms
64 bytes from 216.58.199.67: icmp_seq=2 ttl=56 time=24.356 ms
64 bytes from 216.58.199.67: icmp_seq=3 ttl=56 time=21.390 ms
64 bytes from 216.58.199.67: icmp_seq=4 ttl=56 time=24.363 ms

--- www.google.com.au ping statistics ---
5 packets transmitted, 5 packets received, 0.0% packet loss
round-trip min/avg/max/stddev = 21.390/23.319/24.693/1.421 ms


Ping has started.

PING www.seabreeze.com.au (168.1.133.126): 56 data bytes
64 bytes from 168.1.133.126: icmp_seq=0 ttl=121 time=34.056 ms
64 bytes from 168.1.133.126: icmp_seq=1 ttl=121 time=35.808 ms
64 bytes from 168.1.133.126: icmp_seq=2 ttl=121 time=36.951 ms
64 bytes from 168.1.133.126: icmp_seq=3 ttl=121 time=37.914 ms
64 bytes from 168.1.133.126: icmp_seq=4 ttl=121 time=36.677 ms

--- www.seabreeze.com.au ping statistics ---
5 packets transmitted, 5 packets received, 0.0% packet loss
round-trip min/avg/max/stddev = 34.056/36.281/37.914/1.300 ms

Update:
After many phone calls and iiNet blaming the Nbnco for our slow internet (2 to 3mbps on the 12mbps plan), I decided to ditch them and give iprimus a go after having good reports from a neighbour. Upgraded to the 25mbps plan for an extra $10 a month an am now getting speeds of over 20 Mbps!!! Whole family is so much happier.
Another neighbour is with Optus on the 12 plan and is getting the same rubbish speeds that I had with iiNet.

The five NBN speed tiers are:
?Tier 1: 12Mbps download, 1 Mbps upload
?Tier 2: 25Mbps download, 5 Mbps upload
?Tier 3: 25Mbps download, 10 Mbps upload
?Tier 4: 50Mbps download, 20 Mbps upload
?Tier 5: 100Mbps download, 40 Mbps upload


You had Tier 1: 12Mbps download, 1 Mbps upload, which is old ADSL speed.
You've gone to either T2 (or 3) which is (peak) ADSL2 speed. (Apart from upload speed, which most people wont notice)

My guess is that people are leaving ADSL2, switching to T1 NBN and wondering why its so slow. esp when you take into account contention etc.

To be honest, I have idea why they would even have T1 as a option.
On FTTP its like the ISPs are giving you a Ferrari and only letting you use 1 cylinder (they pulled the sparkplugs from the others)
If your on FTTN its like the Ferrari is parked at the end of the street and now you've gotta walk down there just to look at it.

Select to expand quote

rod_bunny said..
?Tier 1: 12Mbps download, 1 Mbps upload
To be honest, I have idea why they would even have T1 as a option.

I have no idea what to do with more than Tier1 speeds. For now.

Examples?

Select to expand quote

evlPanda said..

rod_bunny said..
?Tier 1: 12Mbps download, 1 Mbps upload
To be honest, I have idea why they would even have T1 as a option.

I have no idea what to do with more than Tier1 speeds. For now.

Examples?

ummm Everything!

12mb down is less than what was available in Aus >10 years ago!

I had 100mb down when I lived in the US in 2001... 16 years ago!!!


Back when the internet was young, people gave a toss about size when they sent you things, when they developed websites.
Now we are streaming 4k movies FFS! Every kid is sending every other kid 8mb pics from their phones. Just about every web page is developed not for speed but for how much rich content can be crammed on it (usually advertising). Every page is loaded with content that has been "selected" for you due to the bots in the background checking umpteen things about you. What you want to see on this website is mostly - text - which is very light to send, but look around the page - what else do you see right here that you've paid to download that you don't want to see?

The google search page was originally setup as a clean lightweight page in order to load faster than any other search engine - it still is.


I'm on a 100mb now and I still have issues getting pages to load.

There's 2 things wrong with the NBN as it is being implemented.
1. The Multi-technology model
2. The commercial model

FTTN stopped making sense around 2005 when Telstra offered to roll it out, then threw all their toys out of the cot and stopped when they couldn't get approval for the gouge pricing they wanted. FTTB and FTTC are actually reasonable compromises with good upgrade to FTTP if they get things rolled out more quickly. Cable is questionable.

But, the main issue most people are experiencing is actually the commercial model. NBN fees are the single biggest operating cost for a carrier to provide a broadband service on the NBN. NBN charge $15.25 per Mbps per month at the interconnect point to the Service Provider. So, there is a massive incentive for carriers to under-provision the interconnect bandwidth and keep costs down. If a carrier provisions the interconnect at 1.5Mbps per customer, and upgrade to 2Mbps per customer, they don't get any extra money off you as a consumer, do they? But their CVC costs just increased by 33%. That there is your issue folks.

Select to expand quote

rod_bunny said..

ummm Everything!

12mb down is less than what was available in Aus >10 years ago!

I had 100mb down when I lived in the US in 2001... 16 years ago!!!

I'm curious. How did you have 100Mb download speeds back in 2001? Was this residential or commercial?
Cable internet that is shared?

Those speeds weren't generally available, and were very expensive.

Also, in the defense of Australia, people often forget that the USA, as the home of the internet, charged termination charges to everyone else to access 'their' internet. This made the price higher than it otherwise might be, let alone the cost of links to the USA. While ever there is little content in Australia, the charges will be higher.

So, if you are paying through the nose for internet content, it makes it very hard to sell a high speed service that only a few people want.

Select to expand quote

nnnbrewery said..
There's 2 things wrong with the NBN as it is being implemented.
1. The Multi-technology model
2. The commercial model

FTTN stopped making sense around 2005 when Telstra offered to roll it out, then threw all their toys out of the cot and stopped when they couldn't get approval for the gouge pricing they wanted. FTTB and FTTC are actually reasonable compromises with good upgrade to FTTP if they get things rolled out more quickly. Cable is questionable.

But, the main issue most people are experiencing is actually the commercial model. NBN fees are the single biggest operating cost for a carrier to provide a broadband service on the NBN. NBN charge $15.25 per Mbps per month at the interconnect point to the Service Provider. So, there is a massive incentive for carriers to under-provision the interconnect bandwidth and keep costs down. If a carrier provisions the interconnect at 1.5Mbps per customer, and upgrade to 2Mbps per customer, they don't get any extra money off you as a consumer, do they? But their CVC costs just increased by 33%. That there is your issue folks.

Ahaa and FTTN just makes the whole scenario worse because bandwidth must be more strictly rationed after the exchange or node.

Select to expand quote

FormulaNova said..

Also, in the defense of Australia, people often forget that the USA, as the home of the internet, charged termination charges to everyone else to access 'their' internet. This made the price higher than it otherwise might be, let alone the cost of links to the USA. While ever there is little content in Australia, the charges will be higher.

That may have been an issue in the past. It is no longer the case. All the big players such as facebook, google, netflix have CDNs in Australia, so this content is served locally. The remaining international traffic and associated peering link charges are these days a very small percentage of operating expenses (especially when compared to NBN charges).

Select to expand quote

nnnbrewery said..

FormulaNova said..

Also, in the defense of Australia, people often forget that the USA, as the home of the internet, charged termination charges to everyone else to access 'their' internet. This made the price higher than it otherwise might be, let alone the cost of links to the USA. While ever there is little content in Australia, the charges will be higher.

That may have been an issue in the past. It is no longer the case. All the big players such as facebook, google, netflix have CDNs in Australia, so this content is served locally. The remaining international traffic and associated peering link charges are these days a very small percentage of operating expenses (especially when compared to NBN charges).

That's why I phrased my comments in the past tense. In 2001, things were different.

If we didn't have CDNs now, or local hosting, nothing would work well.

NBN charges are meant to make it a competitive model, but when you try and offer cheap internet your subscription ratio has to suffer. Streaming services have made this a big problem.

Select to expand quote

FormulaNova said..

rod_bunny said..

ummm Everything!

12mb down is less than what was available in Aus >10 years ago!

I had 100mb down when I lived in the US in 2001... 16 years ago!!!

I'm curious. How did you have 100Mb download speeds back in 2001? Was this residential or commercial?
Cable internet that is shared?

Those speeds weren't generally available, and were very expensive.

Also, in the defense of Australia, people often forget that the USA, as the home of the internet, charged termination charges to everyone else to access 'their' internet. This made the price higher than it otherwise might be, let alone the cost of links to the USA. While ever there is little content in Australia, the charges will be higher.

So, if you are paying through the nose for internet content, it makes it very hard to sell a high speed service that only a few people want.

Residential Cable.
It may have been aggregated to a slower connection upstream, but it was waaaaaaay faster than the cable speeds in the UK at the time.

When I left Oz in 2000 I was still using dial up! 56k

Select to expand quote

rod_bunny said..

FormulaNova said..

rod_bunny said..

ummm Everything!

12mb down is less than what was available in Aus >10 years ago!

I had 100mb down when I lived in the US in 2001... 16 years ago!!!

I'm curious. How did you have 100Mb download speeds back in 2001? Was this residential or commercial?
Cable internet that is shared?

Those speeds weren't generally available, and were very expensive.

Also, in the defense of Australia, people often forget that the USA, as the home of the internet, charged termination charges to everyone else to access 'their' internet. This made the price higher than it otherwise might be, let alone the cost of links to the USA. While ever there is little content in Australia, the charges will be higher.

So, if you are paying through the nose for internet content, it makes it very hard to sell a high speed service that only a few people want.

Residential Cable.
It may have been aggregated to a slower connection upstream, but it was waaaaaaay faster than the cable speeds in the UK at the time.

When I left Oz in 2000 I was still using dial up! 56k

I think around that time I was using 1-way satellite internet. I.e. dial up, with a satellite return, which was getting something crazy like 256kbps at times. It was surprisingly useful at the time. With the content delivered from somewhere in the US.

A little bit before this, I worked for Ozemail, and was shown that they delivered a lot of their content from the US to Aus over satellite as it was heaps cheaper than terrestrial and by going through an uplink in the US, it avoided the ridiculous charges that the links to Aus had to pay.

Select to expand quote

stoff said..
Been on the NBN for a while now with iiNet. Plan is supposed to be up to 12mbps and initially it was good, not 12 but faster than 4g.

For many months now it's been rubbish and iiNet just keep blaming nbn co.

Just did a speed test now and my 'nbn' is 2.41mbps vs 7.21mbps on 4g. What a joke, feeling ripped off!

If this is the best the nbn can offer, bring on other options!

I lost internet service altogether recently for 12 days. After 4 calls to Optus who said they were monitoring it, they sent me a new modem. Found out for myself it was actually the Nbn modem just needed rebooting by unplugging it and plugging back in.

Select to expand quote

rockmagnet said..
Found out for myself it was actually the Nbn modem just needed rebooting by unplugging it and plugging back in.

Get used to that...

I've had 3 Telstra "business" routers in 6 months. All suffer the same problem, locking up and denying certain ports.
And to be super helpful, cant be accessed locally or remotely when this happens. So someone has to manually reboot it.

A client of mine just switched to a Telstra supplied modem... guess who's connection had issues on day 1,2,3...
They HAVE to used that modem as their phone system hangs off it.


I've gone back to my old modem - phones don't work, but my net connection stays up.

Select to expand quote

stoff said..
Update:
After many phone calls and iiNet blaming the Nbnco for our slow internet (2 to 3mbps on the 12mbps plan), I decided to ditch them and give iprimus a go after having good reports from a neighbour. Upgraded to the 25mbps plan for an extra $10 a month an am now getting speeds of over 20 Mbps!!! Whole family is so much happier.
Another neighbour is with Optus on the 12 plan and is getting the same rubbish speeds that I had with iiNet.

Hey stoff - what suburb are you in? I am in Kingsley and with iiNet and get 9-10Mbs on ADSL2... but only ~2km from exchange. iiNet are rubbish since they have sold. Recently we had 47 outages in 3 days - over 100 for the month.

I'm in Karrinyup near the shopping centre. Closest node is about 400m away.

The fact that I'm getting good speeds now makes me think the FTTN system is capable of delivering what they promised, but for whatever reason (profiteering perhaps) some of the providers don't want to give you what your paying for.

Thanks - well I will be looking at iprimus also given your experience. Thanks for sharing.

Select to expand quote

rod_bunny said..

rockmagnet said..
Found out for myself it was actually the Nbn modem just needed rebooting by unplugging it and plugging back in.

Get used to that...

I've had 3 Telstra "business" routers in 6 months. All suffer the same problem, locking up and denying certain ports.
And to be super helpful, cant be accessed locally or remotely when this happens. So someone has to manually reboot it.

A client of mine just switched to a Telstra supplied modem... guess who's connection had issues on day 1,2,3...
They HAVE to used that modem as their phone system hangs off it.


I've gone back to my old modem - phones don't work, but my net connection stays up.

Yea my modem problem was actually the supplied Nbn modem ,not the Optus modem as I found out later. The Optus modem which is connected to the Nbn modem was fine. I connected the new one they sent me anyway.

Select to expand quote

stoff said..
Been on the NBN for a while now with iiNet. Plan is supposed to be up to 12mbps and initially it was good, not 12 but faster than 4g.

For many months now it's been rubbish and iiNet just keep blaming nbn co.

Just did a speed test now and my 'nbn' is 2.41mbps vs 7.21mbps on 4g. What a joke, feeling ripped off!

If this is the best the nbn can offer, bring on other options!

It's not the best the NBN can offer. If Tony Abbott didn't dump the proper FTTP NBN and stuff it all up with copper at the end and retailers weren't fighting over bottle-necked broadband in Tony's stupid copper system, you'd probably be fine.

I cant wait to get our FTTC in mid 2019. Currently we get less than 1mb/s on the copper. 4g is not so good at certain times of the day.

FTTC is Fiber to the curb (American English rather than Kerb British English)

Ill be going for a business connection as I work from a home office. Ill prefer a service provider that doesn't overload the equipment at the exchange. I think people with a problem have it with the service provider overloading their equipment. Its not the fiber optic.

hurry the f*** up nbn

Select to expand quote

Adriano said..

stoff said..
Been on the NBN for a while now with iiNet. Plan is supposed to be up to 12mbps and initially it was good, not 12 but faster than 4g.

For many months now it's been rubbish and iiNet just keep blaming nbn co.

Just did a speed test now and my 'nbn' is 2.41mbps vs 7.21mbps on 4g. What a joke, feeling ripped off!

If this is the best the nbn can offer, bring on other options!

It's not the best the NBN can offer. If Tony Abbott didn't dump the proper FTTP NBN and stuff it all up with copper at the end and retailers weren't fighting over bottle-necked broadband in Tony's stupid copper system, you'd probably be fine.

I hate to side with the nay-sayers, but the restrictions in the NBN are not related to the technology chosen. Even if you have a clear 12Mbps path using old ADSL1, the system will still restrict you if you are sharing the same ISPs pipe that is too small for the number of subscribers. At the moment it sounds like everyone wants to offer cheap internet by giving poor subscriber ratios.

Apparently, we get our NBN mid next year - but ours is going to be a hybrid system using the cable TV coax that runs to our home.

Anyone know much about this type of system?

Although the suburb is wired up for cable TV, we have never subscribed.
The cable junction box on our outside wall has 2 x cables with nothing joining them, and there is a cable TV wall socket in our lounge room [gathering dust]

Our home is on a corner block, there is a twin steel lid Telstra pit and connection pole on the front verge, a Telstra small pit on the corner [probably to make it easier feeding the cables around the 90 degree corner] and the cable TV distribution box on the side verge about 1 metre off our side fence.

TIA,

Select to expand quote

FormulaNova said..

Adriano said..

stoff said..
Been on the NBN for a while now with iiNet. Plan is supposed to be up to 12mbps and initially it was good, not 12 but faster than 4g.

For many months now it's been rubbish and iiNet just keep blaming nbn co.

Just did a speed test now and my 'nbn' is 2.41mbps vs 7.21mbps on 4g. What a joke, feeling ripped off!

If this is the best the nbn can offer, bring on other options!

It's not the best the NBN can offer. If Tony Abbott didn't dump the proper FTTP NBN and stuff it all up with copper at the end and retailers weren't fighting over bottle-necked broadband in Tony's stupid copper system, you'd probably be fine.

I hate to side with the nay-sayers, but the restrictions in the NBN are not related to the technology chosen. Even if you have a clear 12Mbps path using old ADSL1, the system will still restrict you if you are sharing the same ISPs pipe that is too small for the number of subscribers. At the moment it sounds like everyone wants to offer cheap internet by giving poor subscriber ratios.

Or cabling up to older tech.
www.smh.com.au/business/consumer-affairs/residents-fight-to-stop-nbn-and-telstra-from-axing-state-of-the-art-hfc-network-20170725-gxi8bh.html


But don't worry... the ACCC is cracking down... (roll eyes)
www.smh.com.au/business/media-and-marketing/accc-cracks-down-on-misleading-nbn-speed-claims-20170720-gxf0qj.html

"We advise the [retailers] when they are hitting capacity levels but it is a matter for the [retailers] to decide whether to purchase more [capacity]," a spokesman said.

"Right now, consumers are not getting the basic information they need to make an informed choice. Indeed, they are often being misled," Mr Sims said on Thursday.Mr Sims told Fairfax Media consumer expectations were shaped by marketing.

If telcos told consumers a 12 megabit per second [Mbps] connection on the NBN was "superfast', this could be considered misleading because it was similar to pre-NBN speeds

^^ It seems only fair that Telcos are forced to advertise the minimum speed, not maximum as they do now.

Select to expand quote

sn said..
Apparently, we get our NBN mid next year - but ours is going to be a hybrid system using the cable TV coax that runs to our home.

Anyone know much about this type of system?

Although the suburb is wired up for cable TV, we have never subscribed.
The cable junction box on our outside wall has 2 x cables with nothing joining them, and there is a cable TV wall socket in our lounge room [gathering dust]

Our home is on a corner block, there is a twin steel lid Telstra pit and connection pole on the front verge, a Telstra small pit on the corner [probably to make it easier feeding the cables around the 90 degree corner] and the cable TV distribution box on the side verge about 1 metre off our side fence.

TIA,

They will effectively use the HFC internet system to deliver your NBN service. You don't need to worry about it as they will have to upgrade things to achieve the speed and reliability they want.

I think I am in the same boat, but I am not 100% sure. I think last I heard, they were only going to use the old Telstra/Foxtel HFC network and not the Optus one (the one I am connected to).

In theory, they will do an install, and give you some sort of modem, and away you go, the same as if you were connected via any other technology.

One thing I was told today, was that NBN will only designate ONE type of service for each particular address. So if they say you will get HFC delivery, you do not have the option of choosing FTTN or anything else.

The hybrid part of your NBN service is the Hybrid Fibre Cable (aka HFC) system that is already in place. There is nothing new about the technology as far as I know.

Select to expand quote

rod_bunny said..

FormulaNova said..

Adriano said..

stoff said..
Been on the NBN for a while now with iiNet. Plan is supposed to be up to 12mbps and initially it was good, not 12 but faster than 4g.

For many months now it's been rubbish and iiNet just keep blaming nbn co.

Just did a speed test now and my 'nbn' is 2.41mbps vs 7.21mbps on 4g. What a joke, feeling ripped off!

If this is the best the nbn can offer, bring on other options!

It's not the best the NBN can offer. If Tony Abbott didn't dump the proper FTTP NBN and stuff it all up with copper at the end and retailers weren't fighting over bottle-necked broadband in Tony's stupid copper system, you'd probably be fine.

I hate to side with the nay-sayers, but the restrictions in the NBN are not related to the technology chosen. Even if you have a clear 12Mbps path using old ADSL1, the system will still restrict you if you are sharing the same ISPs pipe that is too small for the number of subscribers. At the moment it sounds like everyone wants to offer cheap internet by giving poor subscriber ratios.

Or cabling up to older tech.
www.smh.com.au/business/consumer-affairs/residents-fight-to-stop-nbn-and-telstra-from-axing-state-of-the-art-hfc-network-20170725-gxi8bh.html


But don't worry... the ACCC is cracking down... (roll eyes)
www.smh.com.au/business/media-and-marketing/accc-cracks-down-on-misleading-nbn-speed-claims-20170720-gxf0qj.html

"We advise the [retailers] when they are hitting capacity levels but it is a matter for the [retailers] to decide whether to purchase more [capacity]," a spokesman said.

"Right now, consumers are not getting the basic information they need to make an informed choice. Indeed, they are often being misled," Mr Sims said on Thursday.Mr Sims told Fairfax Media consumer expectations were shaped by marketing.

If telcos told consumers a 12 megabit per second [Mbps] connection on the NBN was "superfast', this could be considered misleading because it was similar to pre-NBN speeds

Yeah, that's a curly one! The NBN has basically agreed/decided/mandated that competing networks will be decommissioned, and in this case the Telstra HFC network was bought by NBN to deliver NBN services as far as I know. Now they have decided that its not good enough, and must be replaced. So this means that they must remove it, or change it to be the NBN, but in this case, according to the article they are asking that the Telstra HFC will be removed and replaced by a copper system... bleh!

Its unfortunate, but I am not sure the Ombudsman can do much in this case, but you would hope that there is a better solution to the problem. In theory if everyone decided to subscribe to the same ISP and the subscription ratio was good, they would still have great performance. In reality though the POI for that building will be shared with lots of other buildings and the average speed will be much slower than what they have now.