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oliver said..

Q 1.
NBN = $50B
How did the NBN improve your life? (being more argumentative isn't a valid answer)

I agree with you totally. Most NBN enthusiasts/fanatics claim that fast internet earns money.Being myself in IT business for many years I could hardly find an example how average citizen could earn money.
Selling old crap on Gumtree through fastest fiber optic will be as painful as dial up. Selling your body on porn cams, very unlikely, taking into account worldwide competition and love for food here.
Forex and stock exchange charts could be money spinners - but for most money will flow the opposite way.

There could be few in the whole country that may earn more than average income, just by utilizing the internet - but that will be hen tooth exemption.
Even in such case, they could afford to pay a fair price, for requested speeds, since that is their own business.
In a similar manner all plumber, electrician tradies could call for free utes for all.
Lumberjacks for free chainsaws and farmers ask for tractors for every apartment dweller.

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oliver said..

Where are you plucking $8000 from? What is snatching the Mccan kid? What is the "Dud technology" that you refer to? So many questions.

Q 1.
NBN = $50B
25M people in Australia
$2K per head
4 people in our household $8K
I'd rather spend that amount of money for some 10yo's transgender operation. Than have fibre to my home.

Q 2.
In my experience. People who are shouty shouty about the NBN are irrational. When you question them - they look at you like you are a serial killer. I didn't snatch the McCann kid. I just question the money we've all wasted.

Q 3.
In my opinion - The NBN is dud technology.

And after all that you "refused" to answer the question I asked of you

How did the NBN improve your life? (being more argumentative isn't a valid answer)

Answered your question by saying NBN about setting up for next 100 years, not about today.

Yes it's improved my life today, but again that's not what it's about. I have cut the aerial cord now that I have fast reliable streaming. No more free to air, no more TV ads. It's great, I recommend it. Every device in the house has faster & reliable internet. I have rellies all over, video calls let them see the kids. I constantly stream music now, internet radio & soundcloud, tunein & paid Spotify. That's nice too.

As for cost, I can't say what current cost is, but originally cost was to be zero. Zero. How many times can I repeat it. It was structured as a taxpayer loan on future earnings, to be repaid with interest. Genius. Exactly the sort of infrastructure investment governments should undertake in these record low interest times.

Which of the many technologies is a dud in your opinion? All of them?

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kiteboy dave said..
Answered your question by saying NBN about setting up for next 100 years, not about today.

Yes it's improved my life today, but again that's not what it's about. I have cut the aerial cord now that I have fast reliable streaming. No more free to air, no more TV ads. It's great, I recommend it. Every device in the house has faster & reliable internet. I have rellies all over, video calls let them see the kids. I constantly stream music now, internet radio & soundcloud, tunein & paid Spotify. That's nice too.

As for cost, I can't say what current cost is, but originally cost was to be zero. Zero. How many times can I repeat it. It was structured as a taxpayer loan on future earnings, to be repaid with interest. Genius. Exactly the sort of infrastructure investment governments should undertake in these record low interest times.

Which of the many technologies is a dud in your opinion? All of them?

You haven't got a crystal ball - how do you know what life will be like in 100 years. Just as likely North Korea has launched a nuke on Tokyo and there is no sunlight over South Eastern Asia anymore.

Ok, so things are a little faster for you - you can brag about your pings with your white middle class university educated mates who are still on cable. You can download Game of Thrones in 2 seconds. Every device in your house is a millisecond faster.

How has that helped the homeless?

How has that helped the people dying of cancer?

How has that helped housing affordability?

How has that helped the Great Barrier Reef?

How has that helped your kids get a job?

Let's be honest here KBD.... The NBN hasn't improved your life one little bit - your relationship with your family has deteriorated as you are spending more time doing ping tests with your middle class mates and defending the shouty shouty position you held 10 years ago with muppets on seabreeze.

It's dud technology that costed way too much and we should have never fallen for all the morons who told us it would change our lives.

Fark so for the NBN to be a
success in your books it has to fix homelessness, save the reef & cure cancer too?

No wonder it's a dud.

It's not passionfingers Abbott after all.

Miracles or GTFO round your place Eh?

/ps it would have helped my kids get a job, yes.

Ps you're still not getting the 100 years part

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kiteboy dave said..
Fark so for the NBN to be a
success in your books it has to fix homelessness, save the reef & cure cancer too?

No wonder it's a dud.

It's not passionfingers Abbott after all.

Miracles or GTFO round your place Eh?

/ps it would have helped my kids get a job, yes.

Ps you're still not getting the 100 years part

No - I didn't say that - what I said was ^^^^

Stop putting your words in my mouth - your breath stinks of humble pie, and I really dislike that odour in my mouth!

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oliver said....Let's be honest here KBD.... The NBN hasn't improved your life one little bit - your relationship with your family has deteriorated as you are spending more time doing ping tests with your middle class mates and defending the shouty shouty position you held 10 years ago with muppets on seabreeze.

Some pretty horrid assumptions about KBS's personal life there. Being a Seabreeze troll hasn't improved your life either - just a guess.....

...

Satellite/wireless - it'll never be faster or more reliable than photons in fibre.

When we wake up to the fraud of the Noalition's FTTN and replace the nodes with FTTP, no foreseeable or existing technology will come close.

As an investment, the NBN is very astute, because it pays for itself - many times over.

As for this $8,000 nonsense, you haven't paid a cent. Has your tax gone up? - no.

I just switched to NBN. Same plan, quadruple download speed and 10 times the upload speed. It does increase productivity.

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Adriano said..

oliver said....Let's be honest here KBD.... The NBN hasn't improved your life one little bit - your relationship with your family has deteriorated as you are spending more time doing ping tests with your middle class mates and defending the shouty shouty position you held 10 years ago with muppets on seabreeze.

Some pretty horrid assumptions about KBS's personal life there. Being a Seabreeze troll hasn't improved your life either - just a guess.....

...

Satellite/wireless - it'll never be faster or more reliable than photons in fibre.

When we wake up to the fraud of the Noalition's FTTN and replace the nodes with FTTP, no foreseeable or existing technology will come close.

As an investment, the NBN is very astute, because it pays for itself - many times over.

As for this $8,000 nonsense, you haven't paid a cent. Has your tax gone up? - no.

I just switched to NBN. Same plan, quadruple download speed and 10 times the upload speed. It does increase productivity.

Rofl!!

Tell us about increased productivity... number of posts has increased from 5 per minute to 10 per minute

The seabreeze trolling and improvement to life - speaking from experience

^^ Nothing of value to add....sigh.

One trolling post is more obnoxious than quantity of posts.

All style, no substance.

Anything to say about this?

"Satellite/wireless - it'll never be faster or more reliable than photons in fibre.

"When we wake up to the fraud of the Noalition's FTTN and replace the nodes with FTTP, no foreseeable or existing technology will come close.

"As an investment, the NBN is very astute, because it pays for itself - many times over.

"As for this $8,000 nonsense, you haven't paid a cent. Has your tax gone up? - no."

^^^Don't break the mirror! It's 7 years of bad luck!

oh and labor is always wrong Take it to HW...

AND, this thread was not about FTTN vs FTTP.

Gotcha going....how does it feel?....this thread is about whatever this thread is about....not what you say this thread is about......

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Adriano said..
Gotcha going....how does it feel?....this thread is about whatever this thread is about....not what you say this thread is about......

^^^ errrr... OK... sure...

You're gunna have to try harder to get me going... this one hadn't even reached the get going start line... anyways...

This thread was started by Macroscien and was about NBN vs global internet. It was Adrian that protested about not contributing to the not the topic by not contributing to the topic... don't break the mirror

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Adriano said..

oliver said....Let's be honest here KBD.... The NBN hasn't improved your life one little bit - your relationship with your family has deteriorated as you are spending more time doing ping tests with your middle class mates and defending the shouty shouty position you held 10 years ago with muppets on seabreeze.

I just switched to NBN. Same plan, quadruple download speed and 10 times the upload speed. It does increase productivity.

I have also just switched to NBN, d & upload speeds have increased but I think streaming Netflix was better using ADSL2.

Let's consider following example/ comparison to our struggle to get decent internet.Let take that poorest African country. Now we convince Global Bank to give them 50 bln dollars to lay downs fiber optic to every village, every hut , even to those homeless and hungry. Give them the lowest interest 5% per annum.
Let's have a look how their life improved other next 10 -20 years.

My first impression is that African villagers will be much more happy with Elon mobile solution instead of being tied up to permanent noddle.
On second though they could stream much more porn by fiber or watch cooking and food programs on TV in real 4k - that should calm hunger much better than small smartphone screen could.
The third conclusion could be such - refusing 50 bln dollars loan and accepting free internet from Elon Musk could be offensive to the giver.
Not much room for corruption to redistribute those 50 bln among elders and those the most deserving.Here in Australia, cheap Netflix will make somebody- end user happy and 5 mln in bribes make another contractor and official even more happy. I wounder how much from those 50 bln landad in private pockets .

Fast upload speed is good for productivity if you are a _ _ _ _ _?

words beginning with the letter 'P' are not allowed.

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Macroscien said..

I just realized that 200km into the countryside that is not short or long term plans to provide any sort of internet access at all. Even ADSL is not on the table for rural Australia....

https://innovateaspire.com/2017/05/05/satellite-internet-no-more-a-fiction-elon-musk/

You're not a good one for detail are you? The link you quote is just a journalists story on what may be delivered. I was expecting actual technical details so I could see if it had merit. As you seem to think of it as being a replacement for fiber or even a copper NBN, I would have thought there was technical information there, but there was nothing.

So, you made your comments based on nothing...

ADSL not available for rural Australia? Well, the irony is that they are delivering a lot of stuff over satellite (if they have to), or dedicated/fixed wireless (if they can). So, what are you talking about?

I had a work colleague that lived on a property outside of Armidale, and he loved it. He had fixed wireless and the modem that he was provided with could provide 4 simultaneous services from 4 separate providers without even needing to decommission one before migrating to the other. I can't remember what speeds he was quoting, but it was fast, with low latency.

Your example of African villagers and the internet doesn't seem to have a point. Are you saying Australian's are just subsistence villagers? I just don't understand what your point is.

Maybe we should just force everyone in Australia to live in Sydney. Not Melbourne, not Brisbane, but Sydney. We can all get economies of scale, and have fast WIFI/4G internet and all live the happy life. We could all end up with an extremely efficient city, and no one need live anywhere else. That way all the anti-NBN people can live contentedly. We can all have lightning fast internet and the market will pay for it.

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FormulaNova said..You're not a good one for detail are you?

Macroscien said..

I just realized that 200km into the countryside that is not short or long term plans to provide any sort of internet access at all. Even ADSL is not on the table for rural Australia....

https://innovateaspire.com/2017/05/05/satellite-internet-no-more-a-fiction-elon-musk/

You're not a good one for detail are you? The link you quote is just a journalists story on what may be delivered. I was expecting actual technical details so I could see if it had merit. As you seem to think of it as being a replacement for fiber or even a copper NBN, I would have thought there was technical information there, but there was nothing.

So, you made your comments based on nothing...

ADSL not available for rural Australia? Well, the irony is that they are delivering a lot of stuff over satellite (if they have to), or dedicated/fixed wireless (if they can). So, what are you talking about?

I had a work colleague that lived on a property outside of Armidale, and he loved it. He had fixed wireless and the modem that he was provided with could provide 4 simultaneous services from 4 separate providers without even needing to decommission one before migrating to the other. I can't remember what speeds he was quoting, but it was fast, with low latency.

Same with the claim that theoretically, under test conditions, sometime in the future, when pigs fly and unicorns defecate rainbow ice cream - officially, that 5G is 1000 times faster than the NBN. So ridiculous.

Howunbelievable. NBN Co just bought 15,000kms of copper wire to complete Abbott/Turnbull's NBN lite.

Outdated excess copper wire.

Despite it costing more than Fibre.

Wow

Well that's a definition of stupidity!

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oliver said..

You have NBN now - how has it improved your life?

well nbn has enabled me to offer a much cheaper solutions for my clients when it comes to either things like offsite backup and centralising their services and reducing their upfront costs when it comes to infrastructure purchases and enabled me to expand my business so yes , the NBN has actually increased my income .

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Adriano said..
Well that's a definition of stupidity!

Surely you understand trading off CAPEX and OPEX... You must also understand trading off lower and higher capital costs to deliver benefits earlier? Surely your clients trade-off materials all the time???

There is some evidence in this very forum to suggest you get it... unless this is definition of stupidity!

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Adriano said..
At $40,000 [the Skoda Octavia vRS] is I think the best value new purchase family sports package on the market.

Like I said, if I had $80,000 to throw away and Alfa made an estate Giulia, I'd buy the Veloce.

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FormulaNova said..

ADSL not available for rural Australia? Well, the irony is that they are delivering a lot of stuff over satellite (if they have to), or dedicated/fixed wireless (if they can). So, what are you talking about?

So there are two options:
1.I bought my 100 ha weekender in wrong place, assuming that by now most of Australia should be wired for some sort of internet.
After we spent 50 bln and so much time to talk I was sure that 170 km of Brisbane that is not the place where civilization ends.
I am happy with off the grid electric power, the water there, but off the grid, the internet seems to be a bit odd.
2.I should buy my weekender inside metropolis, say, Brisbane or Melbourne. Sacrify country view but have fiber and still could watch nice country picture streamed onto big TV screen.

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Macroscien said..

FormulaNova said..

ADSL not available for rural Australia? Well, the irony is that they are delivering a lot of stuff over satellite (if they have to), or dedicated/fixed wireless (if they can). So, what are you talking about?

So there are two options:
1.I bought my 100 ha weekender in wrong place, assuming that by now most of Australia should be wired for some sort of internet.
After we spent 50 bln and so much time to talk I was sure that 170 km of Brisbane that is not the place where civilization ends.
I am happy with off the grid electric power, the water there, but off the grid, the internet seems to be a bit odd.
2.I should buy my weekender inside metropolis, say, Brisbane or Melbourne. Sacrify country view but have fiber and still could watch nice country picture streamed onto big TV screen.

Which way do you want it?

Do you want to whinge about the cost of the NBN? The answer would be for all of us to live in dense areas as the cost to deliver it would be much cheaper and 'the market' would deliver it as it would be a profit maker.

Do you want to whinge that you can't get fast internet in the bush? Well, why are you whinging about the cost of the NBN then? Its meant to deliver reasonable internet speeds to most people in Australia.

Do you want internet in the bush? What for? You can get 2-way satellite internet, or possibly fixed wireless. More than likely you can get Telstra 4G internet, even if you have to setup some directional antennas. That's pretty good for areas that don't have big populations. You can get digital satellite TV. All these are subsidised for people in rural/remote areas in an attempt to make it equitable for people no matter where they live.

As a man of principle though I am sure that you will ignore the NBN and approach TPG to run a fibre to your property. As you will be the only one using it, speeds will be great. It might be just a little bit more than $80 a month though.

No grid power and no grid water, but you are complaining about no ADSL...???

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FormulaNova said..

No grid power and no grid water, but you are complaining about no ADSL...???

You will be surprised but indeed that fast, limitless internet have more use/sense on the remote farm.
I did already imagine that I could now set up wireless camera all around the farm to see what is going on from my home 300 km away, drive remotely drones and small vehicles. Maybe even mow a grass, using virtual vision goggles.
Could attach GPS RF ID to every cow and another animal on the farm and see them on Google map, all where are they.Pretty much you could operate soon the whole farm m not being there but 300 km away.
But that is the real reason when you need flat and fast internet access.
At this moment in very short time running our mobile internet exhaust whole xxx GB limits without even touching anything on the computer. You could remotely run a water pump while animals need more drink or run a sprinklers.Using extensive Doom experience shoot wild dingos with a remote paintball gun.
But that is the real reason when you need flat and fast internet access.
At this moment in very short time running our mobile internet exhaust whole xxx GB limits without even touching anything on the computer.
Kids in a remote location could have access to school in Harvard or Oxford.
But that is where our utopia ends - after spending/wasting 50 bln.
50 bln for city dwellers to allow them watching Netflix American cooking shows and other porn.
.............................................................
So the real question for smart ass sitting in our government and even smarter public/ voters is this:
Having no money in the bank ( but 200 bln dollars debts ) would you rather:
a) give 50 bln to crooks providing streaming tv shows too few bored city dwellers
b) invest 5 bln into Elon's space internet and have whole Australia covered forever at bottom rock prices?
Elon Musk is smart not only inventor but investor/entrepreneur.
He offered to solve our energy problems- thank God we don't need any help here.
Show him a problem, show him $50 bln dollars and then ask what he can do for us. Don't ask me.

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kiteboy dave said..
Howunbelievable. NBN Co just bought 15,000kms of copper wire to complete Abbott/Turnbull's NBN lite.

One minute you are telling us how fantastic the NBN is and how it's changed your life for the better. The next you are telling us what a f'ck up it is and how it could have been so much better.

FFS. Make up your mind!

How are people here ever going to make sense of your opinions - when the only things you discuss boils down to this:

Labor == Good
Liberal == Bad

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oliver said..

kiteboy dave said..
Howunbelievable. NBN Co just bought 15,000kms of copper wire to complete Abbott/Turnbull's NBN lite.

One minute you are telling us how fantastic the NBN is and how it's changed your life for the better. The next you are telling us what a f'ck up it is and how it could have been so much better.

FFS. Make up your mind!

How are people here ever going to make sense of your opinions - when the only things you discuss boils down to this:

Labor == Good
Liberal == Bad

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oliver said..

kiteboy dave said..
Howunbelievable. NBN Co just bought 15,000kms of copper wire to complete Abbott/Turnbull's NBN lite.

Labor == Good
Liberal == Bad

Nah it's generally
Abbott == Bad
and that's it. But it's Bono's pet topic ,not mine.

But really, in the case of the NBN, ie this topic

Labor = Fibre FTTP (unless satellite) = Good
Liberal = FTTP (what's already contracted) + FTTN (new contracts) + HFC(use your cable) + satelite + tin cans on a string = Bad

And in this case, it was Abbot who rooted it up.

In 2013, he announced the Lib's policy, in a conference with Turnbull.

Given at Murdoch's Fox studios.

Malcolm's task was to attack labour by demolishing the NBN.

That they did.

Why? Political points + Rupert's price for news corp support.

Hmmm this came out right after...

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Macroscien said..

.............................................................
So the real question for smart ass sitting in our government and even smarter public/ voters is this:
Having no money in the bank ( but 200 bln dollars debts ) would you rather:
a) give 50 bln to crooks providing streaming tv shows too few bored city dwellers
b) invest 5 bln into Elon's space internet and have whole Australia covered forever at bottom rock prices?
Elon Musk is smart not only inventor but investor/entrepreneur.
He offered to solve our energy problems- thank God we don't need any help here.
Show him a problem, show him $50 bln dollars and then ask what he can do for us. Don't ask me.

So, are you asking, should the public choose:

A) an NBN where the development costs are recovered by creating from the outset a company that is sold off to private enterprise. In other words, the sum cost is $0 for technology that is proven and reliable.

B) Spend $5 billion dollars on a company that hasn't yet done what they promise, and will not spend much of that money in Australia on Australian workers, on something that may or may not work. Satellites need to be replaced every so often and base stations for LEO satellites are not going to be trivial.

I guess its always easier to choose the exciting option, unfortunately the same person wouldn't be sitting there taking the blame if it didn't work. Even if Elon Musk is god in a different suit, the politician that made the decision to go with his scheme would be voted out of office after the first term as impatient short-sighted people like yourself would be asking him after 6 months why their farm wasn't yet connected. (Before you argue otherwise, we have already seen this with the NBN)

Isn't it funny, that being one of the people that is negative about an NBN, you have come up with all these ways that fast internet access can improve your lifestyle on a remote property. You keep on saying things like 'its for bored city dwellers to stream TV', yet the existing non NBN services already do that. Then you imply that it won't change anything and then go onto dream of ways in which it would enhance life in a rural area. No kidding!

Allowing kids to access education at a reasonable speed from somewhere in the bush, well I hate to break this to you, but someone thought of that over ten years ago.

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FormulaNova said..

Allowing kids to access education at a reasonable speed from somewhere in the bush, well I hate to break this to you, but someone thought of that over ten years ago.

Somebody may did ( thought ) but not deep enough. NBN is claimed to be a NATIONAL program, so somehow should average disadvantages. Let's see what can be done differently, without even spending another billion.

Pricing. You may enjoy flat limitless internet for pennies now. But farmer needs to chip in $1 per megabyte in mobile plans. Need to sell his tractor to pay for one movie streamed to his cottage. If our 50 bln dollars spent on NBN comes with any social idea in mind to clear disadvantages people have in this country, setting up limits /caps on charges on rural customers may not break national budgets. If whole nation is not able to deliver fiber optic to every hut and cottage in Australia could at least cut their appetite for revenue from already existing and available method of delivery.
By charging thousands of dollars for a rural date - no telecommunication company could improve their balance sheets. Simply people refuse to utilize existing services at all. Optus and Telstra will not bankrupt if the poor farmer will now drain as much data from our network as his smallest pipe ( mobile internet) allows. Why could Telstra not set up $100 per month data mobile plans for all rural - without any chance for cable any form ( copper or glass)?
The point I am trying to prove in this topic is that if something is impossible to deliver by our government somebody else may come and resolve our problems for free. Elon Musk with his satellites, Facebook or Amazon with high flying balloons or Google with solar planes could do so soon.So the nearest future may look like that: Internet will be sourced and provided by external, overseas corporates. The Australian government will be free to sink another 1.5 bln dollars onto next warship. Here I mean literally sink - because none of those ultra expensive ships works as planned. Both surface warships and submarines are simply sailing coffin filled with gold.

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Macroscien said..

FormulaNova said..

Allowing kids to access education at a reasonable speed from somewhere in the bush, well I hate to break this to you, but someone thought of that over ten years ago.

Somebody may did ( thought ) but not deep enough. NBN is claimed to be a NATIONAL program, so somehow should average disadvantages. Let's see what can be done differently, without even spending another billion.

Pricing. You may enjoy flat limitless internet for pennies now. But farmer needs to chip in $1 per megabyte in mobile plans. Need to sell his tractor to pay for one movie streamed to his cottage. If our 50 bln dollars spent on NBN comes with any social idea in mind to clear disadvantages people have in this country, setting up limits /caps on charges on rural customers may not break national budgets. If whole nation is not able to deliver fiber optic to every hut and cottage in Australia could at least cut their appetite for revenue from already existing and available method of delivery.
By charging thousands of dollars for a rural date - no telecommunication company could improve their balance sheets. Simply people refuse to utilize existing services at all. Optus and Telstra will not bankrupt if the poor farmer will now drain as much data from our network as his smallest pipe ( mobile internet) allows. Why could Telstra not set up $100 per month data mobile plans for all rural - without any chance for cable any form ( copper or glass)?
The point I am trying to prove in this topic is that if something is impossible to deliver by our government somebody else may come and resolve our problems for free.

Which way do you want it? A market driven service (which was pretty much what it was before NBN), a user-pays system, or a socialist system where everyone gets everything for nothing?

How about something in-between that gives decent internet for not much money? I don't know where you get your $1 per megabyte idea from? I haven't looked at mobile plans, but I don't know if that sounds realistic. Maybe in 2007.

For satellite plans, that's certainly not the case:

www.finder.com.au/broadband-plans/satellite-broadband

www.activ8me.net.au/internet/skymuster/

Satellite access is expensive, so don't expect unlimited for $50 a month. The access to one transponder on a satellite is shared across all users, so its a relatively expensive resource. It is best suited to multicast or broadcast applications, but unicast traffic is relatively inefficient across satellite.

I can't but help thinking that you are being unrealistic. You bought a property in the bush, and expect internet access as if you were still in the city. There is a reason that bush blocks are not as expensive as the same land in the city.

Have you even done your own research and checked NBN fixed wireless plans?

I thought you said Elon Musk wanted $5 billion, now its free? Make up your mind. Nothing is free, and does your $5B even include regular satellite replacement, the user's satellite system, and the base stations themselves that are needed to connect to the rest of the internet?

The NBN was a smart project so it's a shame that people voted for dumb politicians who dumbed it down to FTTN.

It could have been world class in cities and regional centres but now we have a Lamborghini Hurracan running on 1920's rubber tyres with no steel in them.....