IMO Australia and Australian deserve much better that actually have.

It should be prospering country, sustainable without the constant worry about world conjuncture.

If only had robust sustainable industry/ agriculture etc doesn't need to worry about iron prices everyday.

There are few factors lacking and first I am going to address is : Transport.

Why couldn't we invest in proper rail line ?

Lets imagine future rail line circling whole Australia. From Darwin to Cairns, Brisbane ,Sydney , Melbourne , Adelaide and Perth then back to Darwin.

To start with .
Later we could do some lines going across continent too.

According to physics law once in movement sustaining running objects - like train needs only minimal energy to sustain.

Properly design rail transport should be cheaper then road transport at least by factor or 10 or maybe even 100!
Yes !
Because not only rolling on steel road is more efficient then on pneumatic tires on the road but for every small vehicle you need one driver and for whole train you don't need any.
I imagine that our future trains are going 24 /24 , 7/7 by computers autopilots only around Australia.
Clockwise/ anticlockwise.
Saving on fuel and drivers wages.
Every 100 km or so there are drop of stations and some wagons detach and stay there but main train keep going full speed.

Vice versa the system allow to join few wagons from station to catch up with running full speed passing train, without the need for stopping.
Next.
My future railroad is at least 5-6 meter wide.

Doesn't cost much more to build but when you have wagons 6 meter wide you could - drive your car into wagon perpendicularly park your 20 ft container perpendicular.
Then mean obliviously completely new rail lines to be build, but if we could travel to the Moon and Mars we should be able to construct 6 meter wide rails too.
Now I imagine that with such efficient train running at modest 200 km/h speed I should be able to drive with my car into wagon in Brisbane and for modest $100 drive off in Melbourne 10 hours later.

There are reasons sea ships are build bigger and bigger. Why our rails remain unchanged for two hundred years ?

Dude take less drugs we have a cross country rail system also a north south one witch intersects the other why would you make an efficient rail train go the long way around thats pilot talk. "my sister was a tard now shes a pilot" Idiocrasy best movie ever!!

fark that wait til the hyperloop is perfected then install that down the east coast. Rest of oz is pretty much barren wasteland anyway isn't it?

hyperloop-one.com/

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Darkspi said..
Dude take less drugs we have a cross country rail system also a north south one witch intersects the other why would you make an efficient rail train go the long way around thats pilot talk. "my sister was a tard now shes a pilot" Idiocrasy best movie ever!!

Well, you could cut cross the country, North to South , West to East but system is not efficient , not cost effective .

Do you know that sending something from any place across the globe to Australia is actually cheaper then sending something within Australia ?

Building infrastructure like railroad above could supply jobs and then prosperity for the country benefiting from cost effective transport.

Your argument will be similar to one for dial up internet. Why to bother with anything else if 28 k modems works for you ( and you have a chance to 33.6 upgrade) ?

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kiteboy dave said..
fark that wait til the hyperloop is perfected then install that down the east coast. Rest of oz is pretty much barren wasteland anyway isn't it?

hyperloop-one.com/

Hyper loop is fine for hyper speed passenger transport, not heavy lift we need for Australia now.

What we need is modest 200 km/ h but sustained speed at lowest possible costs.

All computerized. Imagine. You drop your shipment to computerized depot ( every 100 km) and you client will pickup from next computerized depot containerized standardized pallet, small container anywhere in Australia for few dollars no more then 24 H. Is that makes any difference for your business ?

Lets imagine that one day next prime minister comes with similar to mine project and announce:

Our national priority - build Macro circle rail.

We print our-self 200 billion Au paper dollars.

We will provide jobs for thousands of workers.

We will use exclusively Australian steel made of Australian iron ore in Australian Steel Mills to build the track.

We will build infrastructure that works for us for next 1000 years. Once finished like Gorgeous Chinese damn providing free electricity for eternity.
200 billion dollars we printed stay here in Australia.

Now after finishing every AU citizen could get with his car into rail wagon and travel 2000 km for $100 on our train speeding 200 km/h non stop.

For me personally - it means I could load my gear into my car and finish in Melbourne in 10 hours from now for $100 !
For my business it means I could send 1 tone pallet to my customer in Melbourne and pay $100 with guarantee 24 h !

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kiteboy dave said..
fark that wait til the hyperloop is perfected then install that down the east coast. Rest of oz is pretty much barren wasteland anyway isn't it?

hyperloop-one.com/

You are absolutely right. That is because of the lack of transportation. Once we have cheap, fast and effective transport all around circumference of Australia
new cities will spring out of nowhere !

I so much happy to see new Chinese investment in property in new, not existing yet city on Western or North coast, not adding to overcrowded already Melbourne and Sydney.

I think your timeline may be a bit off. Just melbourne to perth would take 17 hours at 200kph. Definitely couldn't circumnavigate in 24 hours.

Yep, a bloody disgraceful situation with our lack of freight trains; so many bloody trucks doing long haul. Trucks for local, trains for distance, everyone would win. It would be soooo expensive to reinstall what we have pulled out, let aline a cutting edge future proofed system. A great nation building project though!

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mclovin said..
I think your timeline may be a bit off. Just melbourne to perth would take 17 hours at 200kph. Definitely couldn't circumnavigate in 24 hours.

You don't need to take this 24 h literally.

But with trains going 200 km/h you could tell exactly when it arrive to Perth from Brisbane.

At this moment my best guesstimate is one to three weeks and cost 10x more that should be.

So I could say to my customer in Perth that shipment will arrive 10 am next morning to depot in Perth.

Allow 30 min for computerized / robotic unload and is free to pickup.

Then having 6 meter width of the wagon you could send much more different machinery then today.

BTW with future technology with train that don't need to stop every few kilometers and going over wast Australian lands speed is not really limited to 200 km. 300 km or more is viable and doesn't cost even much more. All depend on proper bearing and rail construction.
Then fully electric motors could recover energy down hills with great efficiency sending back electricity to the grid.

I am sure that cost of sending 1 tone load to Perth over 5,000 km will be 1/100 of that by road truck.

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Cal said..
. A great nation building project though!

Yep. because beside enormous new rail road system , completely new distribution could be build upon.

Thousand of people could work in depots / distributions centers every 100 km.

New sort of computerized packaging , small standardized plastic containers.

You could send your parcel in one of standardized size plastic container that will arrive depot to depot in minimal time and undamaged.

Network of cooperating couriers could deliver door to door in unprecedented time.

The revolution in transportation could be similar to that internet made in information technology.

Beside if you look into future into next 1000 years that transport system will be always needed regardless of underlying technology. If magnetic levitation will save a bit, there is still nothing better then proper rail road.

Do you know that just one of existing Australians trains could carry as much as 82,000 tones of load ??

convert/compare it to 50 tones road trucks


82,000 / 50 = 1,640 heavy road trucks with 1640 drivers sitting behind the wheel and motors spewing fumes, navigating every road corner and intersection , lights etc.

Each driver could drive 8 -10 hours a day at max speed 80 km / h averaged.

Our train will run 200- 300 km/h with 1 computer driver and 1 supervising human !

www.railwaygazette.com/news/single-view/view/bhp-breaks-its-own-39heaviest-train39-record.html

I might be wrong but didn't the USA do a similar thing 150 odd years ago. The East west rail system that opened up the west. It's a great idea not just for all the previous mentioned but imagine if we could tell tourists they can travel by train around the entire country cheap. Take there car with them if they want.

or maybe we could become more self sufficient in our own smaller communities leaving the long distance travel to tourists? Sometimes adding more is creating more problems than it is solving. Trains to me seem outdated as they are fixed infrastructure that cost a lot of money without the ability to change/adapt easily to changing lifestyles and futuristic circumstances. Look back ten years and see how much has changed. If you go by educated predictions things should be changing a lot faster then "back then" but hey nobody knows and this is the opinion of a drunken 24 year old on a greek island!go thomas the dank engine

Revenue, why would a government build a rail system when you collect all that tax from fuel guzzling trucks, also rego is another massive input into government coffers, makes perfect sence

How about a monorail?

No not trains. Ships. Better ports and a way of integrating foreign shipping into domestic transport. We'd have cheaper transport, (ever notice how Australia has transport and the rest of the world has shipping), less trucks and congestion, less deaths and less money needed to be poured into highways.

The biggest problem is integrating a fair pay system for foreign ship crews. The unions have a point but there should be solution or alternative.

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lotofwind said...
How about a monorail?

man i havent seen that in years, the last time we went through singapore i got on a monorail and all i could do was remember that scene

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slammin said...
No not trains. Ships. Better ports and a way of integrating foreign shipping into domestic transport. We'd have cheaper transport, (ever notice how Australia has transport and the rest of the world has shipping), less trucks and congestion, less deaths and less money needed to be poured into highways.

The biggest problem is integrating a fair pay system for foreign ship crews. The unions have a point but there should be solution or alternative.

A growth in port numbers will only increase the need for rail.

Our local port has recently released numbers showing truck numbers doubling over the past 6-7 years. This has also resulted in all our large roads suffering major damage.

I've been to 4 truck rollovers in the past month alone!! Most locals are supporting the reinstatement of rail, if not for increased productivity and efficiency, but also for the safety of our families on the road. Living in a port-side city with one main road in equals an accident waiting to happen.

Great thread for discussion imo macro.

If not railroad , alternative is only highway., and more lines.

Building motorway is not cheaper at all, footprint on the ground even bigger.

Then when built you still need to drive your car for hundreds or thousands of kilometer.

Accidents happen , killing and dissembling thousand every year.

Imagine if for the same money spent petrol on driving on motorway, you could just load your car onto wagon, walk to bar/ restaurant wagon for the trip.

Have a rest , talk, watch news and internet.

On arrival pickup your car and drive to your destination.

For example :

Brisbane to Sydney - 1,000 km


x 15 liters per 100 km = 150 liter

x $1.5 per liter = $225

As for travel time at 300 km/h - 3.5 hour will be comparable to taking airplane or even less when you take into account all waiting , boarding time, accessing airport etc.

I am absolutely sure that cost of rolling that car on the wagon is less than that. Means profit for company.

Isn't that make everybody happy ? You don't need to drive, somebody else do and you both saving/profiting .

As I said optimal will me modern rail track where cars can drive/ be position automatically across not along the wagon:


This is just concept but new wagon could be designed to protect from environment during transport.

I can imagine that being 6 meters wide , wagons could be 6 meter tall or more to accommodate even two level storage for cars.

Alternatively they could carry 20 ft container across, not along. Existing wagons were designed to carry horses and cows not cars and containers.

All loading is performed automatically at stations

Lets imagine how we could suddenly employ thousands of people assembling new wagons in

automobile factories converted now to produce the best in the world wide railroads trains.

All electric locomotives, transport wagon, luxury passenger carriers with space to enjoy.

Our steel manufactures churning quality steel rails. Concrete for sleepers.

People employed around new transport hubs.

Convenience of availability the transplantation , that you drive your car onto wagon and pickup anywhere around the circle in Australia few hours later.

Or send all machinery, live stock, any bulk items . For now shipping from one coast to another will be more expensive that actually importing item from everseas.

I fell your monorail would really get off the ground if only you had some better diagrams...

According to this one you want to build a railway thats approx 80km wide that runs underwater



And according to this one I should save my railway money and just spend it on the new tax free state China are building up north

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slammin said..
No not trains. Ships. Better ports and a way of integrating foreign shipping into domestic transport. We'd have cheaper transport, (ever notice how Australia has transport and the rest of the world has shipping), less trucks and congestion, less deaths and less money needed to be poured into highways. The biggest problem is integrating a fair pay system for foreign ship crews. The unions have a point but there should be solution or alternative.

why is it australias responsibility to worry about foreign ship crews wages? we have enough wage issues here

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myusernam said...

slammin said..
No not trains. Ships. Better ports and a way of integrating foreign shipping into domestic transport. We'd have cheaper transport, (ever notice how Australia has transport and the rest of the world has shipping), less trucks and congestion, less deaths and less money needed to be poured into highways. The biggest problem is integrating a fair pay system for foreign ship crews. The unions have a point but there should be solution or alternative.

why is it australias responsibility to worry about foreign ship crews wages? we have enough wage issues here

?? Ask the unions. I think its more they are worried about Australian shipping jobs. The other issue they(unions) raise is safe workplaces. Look at the recent "death" ship in the news.

Good idea macroscien, although maybe do a little bit of research on some of your points.
going from 200km/h-300km/h will have a significant increase in cost,
your whole no starting no stopping thing is a fantastic idea except the fact the carriages will still start and stop.
Also what happens if you park your car 3 carriages from the back and you are getting off at the next stop where only the last 2 carriages will get dropped off?
Lastly, what order will the carriages be? for example will all the passengers get on the first half of the train and all the cargo the back? if thats the case how does the passenger part of the train stop with the luggage? etc etc

Not saying is impossible, just there are a few conceptual issues that will need sorting.

here is a cool youtube link for the passenger only version..

A "Great Nation Building Project!!".

Australia absolutely needs one or two of those and I don't think the NBN project quite measures up to be one of those. It is more of an accessory to a Great Nation Building Project. The problem with NBPs are that they need political will to make them happen and with only 3 or 4 year election intervals, no government can ever get enough traction to get anything worthwhile going. The petty bickering that passes for "Parliamentary Debate" achieves naught.

The "Darwin to Melbourne High Speed Rail Project" through the heartlands has been mooted before but government wants private enterprise to build it. That won't happen. However this project has enormous benefits. One of the biggest benefits is that it will reduce the turn around of ships coming here from 6 weeks to 6 days and eliminate so much shipping traffic from the Great Barrier Reef zone.

The only High Speed Rail the government has been talking about is Brisbane - Sydney - Melbourne which would be passenger not freight focused. That is ridiculous. HSR is needed to get trucks and freight off the interstate highways. The benefits of doing that are multiple and obvious.

The technology exists to enable the Darwin - Melbourne line to be built and operate so that freight can be deposited and added at regional stations along the route with out the train stopping.

What does not exist is the "Political Will" to build it nor a "National Bank Of Credit" to finance it.

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flyingcab said..
Good idea macroscien, although maybe do a little bit of research on some of your points.
going from 200km/h-300km/h will have a significant increase in cost,
your whole no starting no stopping thing is a fantastic idea except the fact the carriages will still start and stop.
Also what happens if you park your car 3 carriages from the back and you are getting off at the next stop where only the last 2 carriages will get dropped off?
Lastly, what order will the carriages be? for example will all the passengers get on the first half of the train and all the cargo the back? if thats the case how does the passenger part of the train stop with the luggage? etc etc

Not saying is impossible, just there are a few conceptual issues that will need sorting.

here is a cool youtube link for the passenger only version..

The physical problem of adding and dropping off freight units is entirely solvable. The video you put up is a crude illustration. It probably could not be done at full speed but CAN be done.

The other problem of placement in the line I believe is non existent. Logistical handling and tracking software and hardware currently in use is very sophisticated and would answer that question.

Is the thing holding the country back the width of rail carriages and a shortage of robot train drivers ?

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flyingcab said..
Good idea macroscien, although maybe do a little bit of research on some of your points.
going from 200km/h-300km/h will have a significant increase in cost,

The speed will increase with progress and improvements in technology.

The most critical parts of the project could be securing wide straight land corridors going trough the country.

We need to think in perspective of next 1000 years. Neither physics law or geography of the continents are going to change over this time.

Once we have proper corridors secured, we could improve on speeds and efficiency. But external geometry should be planned with excess.

For transporting big machinery - extra width is required. You could see constrains already in Airbus construction in Europe. Big lorry try to squeeze in tight streets of old city when transporting components of bit jumbo plane. Waste of time and money.Our best customer could be mining industry and their machinery that need to be shipped is not small either.

That is way minimum carriage width should be 6 meter or better even 7 meters. This way you could hide whole container is aerodynamic body of the train.

Air resistance depend on speed but for aerodynamically design train will be almost negligent taking into account enormous weight / mass of the train.

Remember the external surface proportion to the internal volume becomes more favorable with increased diameter of our train.

Technical issue regarding wheel bearings , suspension are also quite interesting but can be solved by our smart engineers.

Over years improvement in magnetic levitation allow future increase in speeds and efficiency in our transportation across continent, still utilizing existing land corridors.
So careful route planning is the most essential. Pretty much we could guess that the best prospering regions will be those in proximity to rail route ( up to 100-150 km) .

Which means that after initial phase Stage 1 - railroad circling Australia by shoreline Stage 2 across the land will bring prosperity inland , to Alice Springs like places. When shipping cost and time fall to almost zero.

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cisco said..

A "Great Nation Building Project!!".

Australia absolutely needs one or two of those and I don't think the NBN project quite measures up to be one of those. I

You are right. NBN is great by could become obsolete in flick of the switch with any newer technology.

Beside this rail system directly correspond to monetary benefits .

Where everybody wins. There is no physical law that could make the project obsolete in next 1000 years.

I could not think about any other means or mass freight transportation then railroads.

Transport by sea will be always too slow and limited to shoreline.

Air transport require massive energy and never could allow to transport whole mining ore in millions of tones effectively.

Only future improvement like magnetic levitation and covering railroads in low pressure / pipes may bring future improvements over next centuries our maga wide rail road.

Taking into account scale - such business proposition could becomes Nr 1 in whole country, undisputed leader in generating turnover and profits.

I come up with name for our rail road system.

We could call it AuRail.

The name directly correspond with our unique in the world Aussie invention.

Beside obvious connotation with Australia bring also to the mind connection with Gold symbol - Au .

Simply golden idea.

Alternative synonymous could be used sounds like MacroRail