shaggybaxter forum posts in last 60 days

Seatronic make really nice kit, but not as budget friendly as the Chinese!
I had a Seatronic ALIZES, conformal coated (laquered) boards that stood up well to a lot of abuse, it's a nice peice of kit. DC powered, used to draw about 0.6 amps at 12V.

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Lazzz said..
Well, she's in & running!!

Thanks for all the feedback.

This might help some too from Nigel!!

Wahoo! Go Lazz!

Thanks very much Trek, I stand corrected. You can tell I didn't have much to do with Aussie builders, I appreciate you chiming in.
I'll still earth my DC systems, I don't believe in running the risk of peeps ever becoming an electrical pathway!

It's worth mentioning that speaking with the yacht builders, not one uses a floating (isolated) DC system. Why?
Because:
- the standards (ISO etc) mandate it; and
- they dont want to get sued.
In a boat, an earthed system is MUCH safer than isolated. Maybe we should buy aircraft. Aircraft get away with it because the systems are in a controlled environment, they are rigorously maintained, stuff doesn't get added by twisting it into the closest power wire and.... they don't float in water.
Actually that's a bit harsh. They might float...just not for very long.

Earthing is one of those subjects that even intelligent engineers try to shy away from!
In undersea submarine cable systems, there is a electrically sealed undersea steel cylinder with 8 x amplifiers approx every 50 kms lying on the ocean floor. Each amplifier is powered by 12V DC/1 Amp. Over the span of a transocean cable, you might be running 10,000+ VDC/1 amp over that cable.
As it is DC, massive copper rods are installed that are connected to the cable landing station at either end of the cable. They are pile driven into the beach below the water table, similar to foundations on a 30 storey buiding. These are called the Sea Earths. The cable landing station would also have a normal(ish) earth stake, just like any other building. This is called the Station Earth.

When commissioning these systems, every now and then we would be chasing some weird non linear effect on the optical signal. We would sometimes switch from the multi squillion dollar Sea Earth to the piddly little Station Earth, resolve the issue, then switch back to the Sea Earth. Problem solved.

In what alternate reality does that even make sense???
That's earthing for you. Part engineering, part black magic!

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woko said..

shaggybaxter said..
Hi Lazz,
Yes, connect the inverter chassis ground to neg busbar, which then connects to the boat's ground. This is the light green wire in Q's wiring diagram. Only use one ground connection from the neg busbar to the boat hull/engine, multiple grounds can be problematic.

The right hand information box has a statement " when operating in inverter mode, the neutral output must be connected to ground'.
I would reword this to say" The AC system must have a Neutral-Earth bond when the inverter is the supply source".

This is done internally in the Multiplus II. This is a safety thing and uses an internal Neutral-Earth relay. When you are connected to shore power it disconnects, so the shore power handles all the safety stuff (RCD). When you are off shore power and the inverter is the AC source, the internal relay kicks in to bond the Neutral-Earth, enabling RCD protection to work on the boat.

The boat earth is very high impedance compared to the neutral conductor, so AC current doesn't 'flow' through to the hull, just like current doesn't flow through the earth stake on your house. This simply ensures the hull and Neutral sit at the same voltage unless a fault occurs. In normal operation, think of the boat ground as a reference, not a current carrying circuit.

Ergo:
-- Do wire the Multiplus-II chassis ground to the boat's ground. That's it.
-- Do not wire any AC (L, N or PE) to your boat's ground.

Cheers!
SB

thanks a informative post. I can deal with inverter chassis ground to dc neg, I can deal with inverter chassis ground to steel hull/ engine. But after decades of being schooled to not using the hull as neg for dc like in a car / any machine, I find it difficult to conceptualise dc Neg to vessel/ motor. I'm sure you're correct but my poor little brain is struggling !

Hiya Woko,
In principle, there is nothing fundamentally wrong with floating (isolated) DC systems, aircraft still use this for example.
I'm struggling to explain this properly (my fault, not yours) as earthing can be an absolute %$#@ to simply qualify.
I need to spend some time on how best to explain it succintly, do you mind if I come back to you?

That was good of you Yara.
Paging BGR from "The first time anchoring overnight" thread, come to reception please.

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cammd said..

shaggybaxter said..

cammd said..
Great review thanks shaggy, very interesting. It seems like a lot of boat for 100k.

I am in the market for new sails and noted your comment about the hydranet, did you like that cloth. I am thinking thats what I want.

Hi Cammd,
The hydranet was awesome. It wasn't cheap, but I wanted something that could handle living flaked on the boom or on the furler, have longevity and still give me performance. Hydranet ticked all of those boxes and proved itself many times. The only thing I did over 5 years was replace the uv protection strip on the headsail.
im hearing some impressive longevity stories about 3di too. That surprised me, I thought 3DI was some exotic race cloth that wouldn't handle normal wear and tear without kid gloves, but from what I'm hearing it is pretty resilient.

Thanks the hydranet is sounding good, 3di still sounds exotic to me, wouldn't mind trying it with a windsurf sail, its probably way to expensive. Can it be repaired with a sewing machine if it suffered damage.

If you are referring to Hydranet, then yes. Hydranet is woven polyester fibres (Dacron) with dyneema fibres added to it for durability. This means you repair it like you would a dacron sail, ie: sewing.
Have no idea how you could repair a 3DI sail except by throwing wads of cash at your sailmaker!

Hi Lazz,
Yes, connect the inverter chassis ground to neg busbar, which then connects to the boat's ground. This is the light green wire in Q's wiring diagram. Only use one ground connection from the neg busbar to the boat hull/engine, multiple grounds can be problematic.

The right hand information box has a statement " when operating in inverter mode, the neutral output must be connected to ground'.
I would reword this to say" The AC system must have a Neutral-Earth bond when the inverter is the supply source".

This is done internally in the Multiplus II. This is a safety thing and uses an internal Neutral-Earth relay. When you are connected to shore power it disconnects, so the shore power handles all the safety stuff (RCD). When you are off shore power and the inverter is the AC source, the internal relay kicks in to bond the Neutral-Earth, enabling RCD protection to work on the boat.

The boat earth is very high impedance compared to the neutral conductor, so AC current doesn't 'flow' through to the hull, just like current doesn't flow through the earth stake on your house. This simply ensures the hull and Neutral sit at the same voltage unless a fault occurs. In normal operation, think of the boat ground as a reference, not a current carrying circuit.

Ergo:
-- Do wire the Multiplus-II chassis ground to the boat's ground. That's it.
-- Do not wire any AC (L, N or PE) to your boat's ground.

Cheers!
SB

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cammd said..
Great review thanks shaggy, very interesting. It seems like a lot of boat for 100k.

I am in the market for new sails and noted your comment about the hydranet, did you like that cloth. I am thinking thats what I want.

Hi Cammd,
The hydranet was awesome. It wasn't cheap, but I wanted something that could handle living flaked on the boom or on the furler, have longevity and still give me performance. Hydranet ticked all of those boxes and proved itself many times. The only thing I did over 5 years was replace the uv protection strip on the headsail.
im hearing some impressive longevity stories about 3di too. That surprised me, I thought 3DI was some exotic race cloth that wouldn't handle normal wear and tear without kid gloves, but from what I'm hearing it is pretty resilient.

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cammd said..
Does this seem cheap

yachthub.com/list/yachts-for-sale/used/sail-monohulls/pogo-40-gte/340128

Hi Cammd,
The GTE is a cruiser racer modelled on Pogo's first Class 40 hull form, the S1. The 12.50 is the cruiser racer modelled on Pogo's 2nd iteration, the S2. I had the 12.50, but I did get to go for a sail on a GTE in Brittany.The 2010 S2 was a natural evolution from the S1, mainly by pushing right up to the boundaries of the Class 40 rules. Beam grew to 4.5m (from 4.25) length went from 12.2m to 12.5, more aggressive chine, fuller bow sections, etc etc.
The things I noticed.....
The GTE had a carbon fibre boom, spreaders and mast, the 12.50 had a cf mast but alloy spreaders and boom. The GTE had a lighter keel but ran water ballast, the 12.50 made up for it with a heavier keel and more righting moment (wider beam). The GTE has running backstays, the 12.50 had no backstay/s at all (optional).
The GTE gets more water over the deck compared to the 12.50, but no worse that any other boat from this era. Runners make short handed a bit more challenging but everything is within easy reach. Goes to windward like a Class 40 (the sheeting angle on the headsail is approx 20 degrees) so you get pantsed if you're pinching. Drop below 45 TWA and it'll change gears and just go. Run barber haulers on the headsail sheet to narrow the slot and improve pinching.

Stupid amount of space below. I liked the layout below, it was comfy when you're off watch, unlike the bare bones racing iterations. I like the race-style nav table situated at the bottom of the stairs. Watertight bulkhead front and rear. "Unsinkable" (foam filled chambers). Will plane in 14kn TWS. You are buying a ocean going, first generation Class 40 racing hull with a cruiser fitout. The 3mtr draft was rock solid stable, awesome for racing, even in Moreton Bay (I had the same draft). Sucks for shallow anchorages (hence why I went for the swing keel, not an option on the GTE). Water ballast means you won't win a tacking duel, but you don't need 6 bodies on the rail either.

I thnk the price is good. A similar era First 40/7 is much dearer, and the sailing manners of the GTE are soooo much more lively/fun. A first 40.7 might beat you on windward leewards and have big fat settees, but they're just boring to sail by comparison. I noticed the GTE has new 3DI mainsail and heady from 2023 (good choice) so full marks for performance and durability. The earlier ones are hydranet which I also ran, they hold their shape well despite, in my case, an awful lot of abuse.

There is a lot to like. At 60TWA or lower, they are fully lit up, so ignore the usual rubbish you hear about Class 40's don't go to windward. You will feel the wetted surface (wide beam) below 10 knots, when pinching or when fighting out of a surf break in light airs. But so easy to sail, when you are planing along single handed with your feet up and the kids flaffing about the cockpit, you won't care a hoot.

If I was really into pickle dishes, I'd buy a First 40.7 and be happy with being bored and using the rating to get on the podium. Or get a Farr 40 and be wet, tired and miserable but exhilarated and on the podium.

Would I buy one to race IRC and expect to clean up on trophies? NO. Would I buy one for the sheer pleasure of sailing and confidence offshore? Absolutely.
Thing to look for: I'd have a rigger check out all is ok with the mast, CF is not cheap.

Cheers!
SB

I hadn't had a look at refurbed tough books for a while. So I had a look and .....mmmmmmm.
I. Must. Resist.
There is some pretty nice kit available. I didn't realise they were that cheap,
I specced up this Dell to onboard GPS, 5G and gruntier everything, for 2.3 K that's a lot of laptop.


This Mk1 tough book specced up, the same as above, is $1.8K.


Either would be a great solution for a boat. And a quarter/third of the price of a new one.

I would look at it all the time (similar but raymarine) if below and I wasn't sitting at the nav station where the 15" monitor is. The VHF is always in a good visible spot, so any inbuilt AIS display is too. They might be monochrome, but the viewing angle is really good as a by product.
I also used AIS mode on the multifunction displays at each helm a fair bit. Same size'ish, but with colour.
So yes, I found it quite useful, but only until I sat in front of the bigger display with a mouse with an AIS map. Then I would promptly forget that the funky little black and white display ever existed.

Edit: Just thinking of other nice things, the other 'pages' or modes I used a lot. There should be a page that shows the number of satellites and how many in lock, that was a really handy page/display. There was another with VHF and AIS receiver signal strengths, that was super handy. The MMSI data page was good, the simple LAT/LONG page was good, the DSC page I found really handy. Excellent troubleshooting and a quick status check of lots of cool info.
I used all of those pages. I'd get a combo unit for that reason alone, irrespective of if one is adding a chat plotter function as well.

Hi BGR,
A couple of handy metrics (apologies if already known).
You want an average of 6 x the depth of the water (+height of the bow roller from waterline) for your scope length.
For a rope/chain rode, the minimum length of chain is your waterline length. Personally, I'd double that.
The 6mm chain is a bit light, you'll be bouncing off of it all night in wind (think of it as all rope). I'd keep the 6mm for a seconday anchor or a kedge and stick to 8mm.
All the best to you!

If you want male/spade/female/ring style, I like Wirefy connectors. They use a normal crimp tool, but are tinned and heatshrinked, which I like for marine installations.

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LarryR said..
I've always dropped the main and sailed under furled headsail downwind in strong conditions. Heavy displacement mono no expert. Are there advantages to furling the headsail and sailing under reefed main alone? Advantages worth having to deal with a preventer and gybing etc etc?

The biggest difference I can think of is the handling is less precise.
We were heading into port late at night and, of course, the wind picks up to 20's then into the 30's. We had full main and headsail up, trucking along at 14-16 knots and way out of sea room. The only priority was to slow the boat down, so we dumped the main.
Boat speed dropped to 8kn, sailed in under headsail. The helm felt washy, boat was trying to rotate round the keel with the bow pushing to leeward in the gusts. But we were slow and in control, albeit more leeway, so job done.
Another time we dumped the jib instead. This time the boat speed didn't drop below 10kn, we came charging in through the leads with me frantically bagging out the main as much as possible. Steering felt awesome, just way too fast.
Boats rotate around the keel. The mainsail centre of effort is much closer to the mast/keel, so steering feels more balanced. On the jib it's 'out there' off the bow somewhere, so now its lee helm. The sail area was 55% main, 45% headsail, so pretty balanced.
Dumping the main is safe and easy, just a bit meh on the helm. Dumping the headsail is more enjoyable, if this reduces enough sail area.

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Quixotic said..

EastCoastSail said..
Just read this, rolled over and lifted the deck hatch. My power to the Ozziefridge is about 75mm away from my Raymarine EV1 compass.
I haven't noticed anything odd, but I better do a bearing check.

My fridge draws 7 amps when on. Yours may draw less and so generate less of a field. The challenge for me was the fridge is more off than on and the compass was correct when the fridge was not drawing current. So if you do a bearing check you'll need to do it with the fridge on and with the fridge off. I identified my compass error coming into Batemans Bay following the Square Head light in. Suddenly my heading deviated about 20 degrees. That started the whole saga for me of trying to figure out what was wrong.

That's pretty cool Quixotic, nice troubleshooting!
Just thinking it through, it must have been I'd guess it was a choppy signal on the fridge wires to create the interference. Like a pulse width modulated power control. Or an AC circuit.
Hmm...the current is usually higher at startup than running, so i wonder if you could 'read' how much your fridge current draw was from how much offset it gave you!
I don't know why more power wires in boats aren't twisted, in comms it is standard. That would sure help cancel them out from egressing to other cables.

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Bobski said..
Thaks all for replies Have all been enormously uweful and most of all reassuring. Makes me comfortable in keeping my beautiful boat. Yes she does have a good autopilot, and has AIS, radar, furling foresail but not main, I will get some electiric winches and an autopilot remote as per advice. I am considering bow thrusterss but of two minds. I'm going to do a separate post on mentors though becuase I am not a racer (just no interest in it, just curising) so don't have ths social side of sailing, and am looking to skill up. I'm doino the formal courses but want some tutoring on my own boat. Unfortunately paying for a private tutor through a sailing school is rediculously expensive i.e. $1000 a day. I'm hoping to find say a retired experienced skipper who is looking for some picket money and maybe a challenge!

IMHO, the autopilot/windvane is one area where please don't skimp on price. A good pilot is probably the bigges gamechanger in transforming your sailing experience. Being 'trapped' at the helm becomes a distant memory, you can roam around and just flaff about with your boat.
Regards bow thrusters, I'm in two minds. I purposefully opted not to get thrusters because I really wanted to learn how to dock without being reliant on them. Add to that the extra cost and complexity. I don't regret being sans thrusters at all, but man... bow thrusters do make docking sooo much easier!

Hi Bobski,
So, a 2004 Bavaria 38, on first pass they look pretty good for short handing. Question: do you have in the in-mast furler and a furler for the headsail? I'd park the spinnaker pole for a while and stick to white sails, poles are a stage 2 thing if you are learning singlehanding.
Singlehanding and offshore work both use the same skills that are not common in smaller boats/sheltered sailing.
The first skill is learning and managing your boat's systems. You have electrical, plumbing, navigation, hydraulics, iron engines, comms and SAR, Make an effort to understand the fundamental components of these systems and how to operate/maintain/repair them. It will pay for itself tenfold in enjoying your sailing.
The second skill is crew management. Eat, rest, manage the boat, eat, rest, manage the boat. At night, always wear your harness and clip on. Use a three point tether. Have jacklines. Wear a personal EPIRB. That sort of thing.
You don't have to be all muscles to single hand and go offshore. Your best asset is assimilating the knowledge you need to make the right decisions for when, inevitably, everything goes to s^%$#!
Good on you for doing the RYA courses, the best money you'll ever invest in your sailing. In addition to that, look at the SSSC safety course, it will give you a lot in safety and SAR.

Keep the boat, she looks like a good 'un! All the best to you!

Yay! Thanks Seabreeze, I can now like more than 3 posts!
Good on you team!

Hey Seabreeze,
Can you chaps remove the ridiculous cap on the number of posts you can like in a 24 hr period?
There is some great responses here that I'd like to acknowledge, but you can only like 2 or 3 posts before you get capped for 24 hours.
SB can do with a few more contributors, so anything that encourages good dialogue is a good thing, no?
Seems silly and I don't know what purpose the limit actually serves.
Cheers!

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Trek said..
I would love to install one of these, I have the space for it. But $4K is way to expensive for me.

www.boatgearaustralia.com.au/isotherm-itc-diy-fridge-freezer-kit-200-65l-ss-ut?srsltid=AfmBOoqxa2YYoKHuRjgGfPupGFHv5gOzgMIdfxm1GiDSFLfFttZQBYIE

I had one of these, they were fantastic. If I forgot to rig shore power, it would stay cold for 7 days running on a 400ah house battery bank.

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JonE said..
Ok we went out in a nice 8 knots today, all of a sudden lots of white horses behind us and a 20 knot seabreeze was in.

I went to the mast, kicked up the clutch on the way and pulled 2 reefs in, sheeted the main in to bring the boom inboard while I got sail ties in and reefing line in.

Only had to get the helmsman to head up a couple of times to take the pressure off.

No noise, no stress, no boom swinging all over the place.

Really pleased I heard about this, and had your feedback before trying it.

Hiya JohnE,
You made me curious now as to what others do. Question for you, do you have your first reef line run before leaving the dock? When shorthanded, well to be honest pretty much all the time, my first reef line was run and tied off to the boom. Ie: when hoisting you ned to have the reef line out of the clutch and free running.
If we were facing any dodgy forecast, the second reef was also put in at the dock. I never ran the third reef as we never got winds bad enough to need it.
I had to do it this way as when under sail, the boom end ended up way too high to connect a reef without sending someone out on the boom or dropping it, neither of which are a good idea in a seaway.

Do you normally have your reefs run before going out?
I'd be interested to hear what everyone else does!