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LarryR said..
I've always dropped the main and sailed under furled headsail downwind in strong conditions. Heavy displacement mono no expert. Are there advantages to furling the headsail and sailing under reefed main alone? Advantages worth having to deal with a preventer and gybing etc etc?

Just added excitement! Reefed main alone on a reach or upwind is fine. Sailing downwind not so much.

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LarryR said..
I've always dropped the main and sailed under furled headsail downwind in strong conditions. Heavy displacement mono no expert. Are there advantages to furling the headsail and sailing under reefed main alone? Advantages worth having to deal with a preventer and gybing etc etc?

If the wind drops and you want to get more sail on, it's normally easier take a reef out of a reefed main than pull up one that has been dropped. If there's a windshift or course change and you need to get upwind in heavy stuff a furled jib's usual very inefficient shape is a problem whereas a good mainsail will retain an efficient, flat shape in all conditions.

But mainly to me the question is, could you get back to a MOB or carry out other complicated moves with only a jib up, assuming the engine is not going? Many boats don't handle well under jib alone. Ropes often go around props in MOB situations so you can't rely on motoring.

In a good breeze offshore and day cruising we granny around, doing a 270, rather than gybe. Our boat's a fractional rig so handles well under main alone and we quite often furl the jib and leave full main up downwind offshore in a breeze, although that's normally only the short run (16 miles???) from Broughton Islands to the mooring. We don't use a preventer but the mainsail stays out when a jib would be lolloping due to the lack of a pole. Accidental gybes aren't an issue because the natural tendency is to round up, not down, and although our boat likes to wander around she doesn't broach or crash gybe.

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LarryR said..
I've always dropped the main and sailed under furled headsail downwind in strong conditions. Heavy displacement mono no expert. Are there advantages to furling the headsail and sailing under reefed main alone? Advantages worth having to deal with a preventer and gybing etc etc?

The biggest difference I can think of is the handling is less precise.
We were heading into port late at night and, of course, the wind picks up to 20's then into the 30's. We had full main and headsail up, trucking along at 14-16 knots and way out of sea room. The only priority was to slow the boat down, so we dumped the main.
Boat speed dropped to 8kn, sailed in under headsail. The helm felt washy, boat was trying to rotate round the keel with the bow pushing to leeward in the gusts. But we were slow and in control, albeit more leeway, so job done.
Another time we dumped the jib instead. This time the boat speed didn't drop below 10kn, we came charging in through the leads with me frantically bagging out the main as much as possible. Steering felt awesome, just way too fast.
Boats rotate around the keel. The mainsail centre of effort is much closer to the mast/keel, so steering feels more balanced. On the jib it's 'out there' off the bow somewhere, so now its lee helm. The sail area was 55% main, 45% headsail, so pretty balanced.
Dumping the main is safe and easy, just a bit meh on the helm. Dumping the headsail is more enjoyable, if this reduces enough sail area.

I think choices depend a bit on your rig. I've a masthead rig with a No.1 on a furler that's 640 square feet compared to my main which is just 360 square feet. Furling my No. 1 makes a huge difference to my boat speed.

Evens so, if running square down wind (or close to square), having just the No. 1 out makes adjusting sail area a doddle with the furler, and keeps the centre of effort forward of the mast and so puts less turning pressure (boat wanting to round up) than having the main fully out one side. Yes the sail's out of shape when partly furled, but when running that's less of an issue (at least to me).

However, once one moves to reaching, balance under No. 1 only, becomes problematic, (I recently sailed briefly on a beam reach with full No. 1 only, when wind was gusting to 27 knots. The boat sailed, but helming was interesting.) The problem for me is that with that much sail mostly forward of the mast, once one moves from running to closer to the wind than broad reaching, the boat is not balanced. And furling to reduce sail moves the centre of effort further forward.

But, I also have a staysail on a furler on the inner forestay, about 290 square feet. So if its blowing a bit hard, I can happily run or reach or, at a pinch, close haul on my stay sail as the centre of effort is a lot further back/ closer to the mast, compared to the No. 1.

In a stiff breeze or more, tho', the boat is better balanced on anything from a beam reach forward with some main, reefed as approp. for the wind strength as well as some headsail. But in strong winds and when running I set just my staysail, partly furled as necessary, as that puts the least pressure on my rig, while giving me greater flexibility to adjust the amount of sail. I'm not racing and if I'm doing 6 knots or better, that's good enough for me.

If one has to tack going into the wind, then for me, having some main is very useful as having the C of E further back makes tacking easier, whereas tacking with the C of E forward of the mast (ie when flying headsail only) is more difficult.

I cant really tack well on No.1 only (ie no main) as I have to furl it to get it past the inner forestay, As I furl, I lose boat speed to make the tack. But that's because of my rig with its permanent inner forestay, good in some ways but a tradeoff in others.

I'm not saying that my choices are necessarily the right ones., but the forum is for discussion, so I'm putting in my 2c worth. No doubt others may set me straight!

And, If one has a different rig, such as a fractional rig and/or without a second headsail on an inner forestay, and/or if one doesn't have a furler on your head sail, then choices may be different.

Definitely horses for courses, I was surprised to find that my long keel ketch won't run on the main alone, perhaps being gaff with long shallow keel adds to the round up ? Toying with the idea of a square sail for off the wind work

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woko said..
Definitely horses for courses, I was surprised to find that my long keel ketch won't run on the main alone, perhaps being gaff with long shallow keel adds to the round up ? Toying with the idea of a square sail for off the wind work

Dedicated twin headsails would keep the weight lower. Stow the main and use the headsails to steer downwind.

Centre of effort further from the mast on a gaff rig. But I'd have thought the long keel would help, and that the C of E of the main is a bit further forward with the main mast on a ketch (tho further aft for the mizzen) , which should also help when running on the main.

As to twin headsails, my inner forestay is masthead also. So a solent rig. Set up that way by the previous owner for trade wind sailing - running before the trade winds with a headsail out either side.

A square sail, I want to see that. Actually I am with Ramona, go extra up front on a square run. Our cat loves running square with a symmetrical kite only. Autopilot hardly works at all. Getting it down in a blow takes some technical tricks though with no main to blanket the douse.
As for the square sail, Alan Lucas writes of putting one on his first boat the 30 something Rendezvous. He loved it until he had to pull it down, it almost killed him and it got put in the bin. Running with twins would be better for your health.

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Kankama said..
..Getting it down in a blow takes some technical tricks though with no main to blanket the douse..

Have you thought about putting a sock on it? A light but strong cloth tube with a reinforced circular opening, as long as the spinnaker is tall, you launch the spinnaker in the sock, then use an endless line to the top of the spinnaker to pull the sock up to the top of the spinnaker and it sits there scrunched up. To dowse you use the endless line to pull the sock down over the spinnaker, and then lower the spinnaker in the sock.

Twins are the obvious answer, Same amount of hardware though extra halyard, sheets & 2x spinnaker poles. The existing heady is on a furler the second would need to be retrieved from the end of a 4m bow sprit, that's what prompted me to look else where

In light winds it is twin headsails for me.
gary

Inline spreaders are the key to making the most of your main downwind.

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Quixotic said..

Kankama said..
..Getting it down in a blow takes some technical tricks though with no main to blanket the douse..

Have you thought about putting a sock on it? A light but strong cloth tube with a reinforced circular opening, as long as the spinnaker is tall, you launch the spinnaker in the sock, then use an endless line to the top of the spinnaker to pull the sock up to the top of the spinnaker and it sits there scrunched up. To dowse you use the endless line to pull the sock down over the spinnaker, and then lower the spinnaker in the sock.

I don't like socks much and I don't get how they can help much. I have seen lots of people have problems pulling the sock down in a fair bit of wind so I prefer to just get the kite down. I have worked out a great way to drop the kite with no main based on how skiffs do it. But it works best on a cat.

Instead of easing off sheet and guy and trying to pull the kite down on the foredeck I run the cat almost square but about 5 degrees on the wind. Then I totally release the leeward sheet and pull the "windward" sheet on. Keep pulling it on until the kite leech is just about touching the sidestay - for my swept back sidestays this is about 70 percent of the way aft. Then I go forward and just drop the kite on the deck of the cat, most of it lands on the deck and I scoop up the rest. THis is how skiffs get large kites down - release leeward sheet and pull windward sheet hard back to the shrouds. I like the fact that it keeps the kite in control in a much better way than trying to pull the kite down from the foredeck with loose sheets - and I don't need the sock. I don't like trying to wrestle a kite down with my weight and strength - this technique uses the windage to get it to drop on the bow - you just have to be quick at scooping nylon. in a skiff and much less so on a cat.

cheers

Phil

What no one has mentioned yet is with mast steps (mine are alloy bar, riveted on with a triangle profile) reefing down wind the main can get caught up on the steps in the folds between the slugs, Murphy's Law it will be just out of reach from the cabin top. No way to get the main down unless I go into the wind.

When I pull the mast in 2027 for new standing rigging, I can't wait to remove all of the mast steps for many reasons.

OK we shook a reef out again racing on Friday night.

I tell the helmswoman to be ready to "stab the boat up towards the wind" at the point we need the tension off and then bear off again quickly as soon as the luff has moved far enough.

As to the general discussion of downwind sailing, we put the bloody kite up!
With the small kite we were happy with 15 knots of breeze on the weekend but I wouldn't have wanted more. I'd like to fly it in 20 to get the hull to pop out of the water but 15 seems like our limit.
The tricky bit seems to be teaching wind awareness to people who haven't sailed dinghies.