CH3MTR4IL5 forum posts in last 60 days

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SA_AL said..
After a bad experience with failing seams of my wing, I'm searching for a better construction. Does anyone have experience with the new model of Vayu (Aura V4)? I'm curious how it performs during maneuvers like tacks and jibes compared to what you've used before and also low wind performance.

Does well on low wind and gybing, as foreshadowed at the top of the page I went to the V4 from Duotone Unit D/LAB. For the incredible price difference once you factor in the boom, leash etc the performance is fairly on par with a much more expensive product. It took me a little while to adjust to it, at the high-end I found the Duotone spills better but that's more a shape issue than the brand, on the flip side its more stable parked on a wave.

It seems fairly bulletproof. My minor gripe is that the design of the leash means that it will pay out to full extension and then has no elasticity, so in strong conditions it nearly dislocated my shoulder. Its also quite large in the bag, due to the long boom, which I personally don't love.

pretty much every para would meet this requirement. whatever fits your price point.

original duotone stash are cheap, smik, whatever is around second hand.

Not mine but I am very invested in the back story!

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ninjatuna said..
I sup foil. Rode the 880/140, then 880/120, then 880/130. Now 890/130. But I was real impressed with the way the 130 made the 880 feel. The turns felt like it was on a rail but not locked in. Like really powering through the turns. Kind of hard to describe but put a big smile on my face. Armie has always said the tails are the cheapest way to change a front foil. I also read somewhere some one else had good results doing it. It was a stepping stone to buying the 890.

Thanks for mentioning this to you and eppo, I have paired the 130 with red shim with the 890 and its a whole new world! i thought it might be too skittish but have had a few sessions and nice setup. I have run it in fairly large waves when I underestimated the conditions on a longer run and still goes hard.

790/130 shimmed is still my favourite but this is a great setup, and weirdly fast, I am not being massively outrun by DW foilers on much smaller and higher aspect setups.

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eppo said..

zarb said..
Next time it happens honestly just hold it by the mast like you would a big sledge hammer, with the titanium end of the fuse as the "head" of the hammer. Find a hard piece of pavement and just belt the **** out of the pavement. Don't be shy. I've split the concrete before - no damage the fuse or mast.

yep that's how i do it .

bloody hell, just put a block of wood on the concrete and hit that you madmen.

same advice but just adding that sometimes a bit of salt and sand contributes- soak it in freshwater, take it out on to the lawn and while its still wet and cool belt the tail on to a block of wood like a straight axe swing

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thuffam said..

I spoke to a bloke who loves his Armstrong HA980 and finds is carves really well and pumps great. He thought the MA's didn't pump (and glide) nearly as well.

Might be a religious debate. But interested to hear others thoughts.
Thanks
Tim

The MA's absolutely do pump, and they will give great glide, but if you go the surf tail it needs to be shimmed 0.5-1 deg though as its offset for proning.

I am riding 890 and 790 for downwinding with the para and have just sold all 3 of my HA's, I can comfortably get 3.5-5k runs on foil most sessions on the MA and they are by far the most fun I have had wave carving.

hope that complicates your decision making further

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Kit3kat said..

If this is a real big issue then it's probably better to do some co2 retention exercises i.e. holding your breath for a bit while using the computer.

just tried it and now my computer is wrecked.

Bit out of date, 30k lies was first presidential term only. I don't think anyone is counting any more.

www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/politics/trump-claims-database/

Apple watch shares location and elevation with emergency services in satellite mode. Phone location using towers may be inaccurate but this isn't.

I agree that a PLB is more appropriate in some circumstances but the benefit of the watch is you are likely to always have it with you, and a lot of these events are occurring when people weren't necessarily planning a massive gnarly adventure.

it also gives you some options for escalation- with a PLB you're committed to a 000 emergency with emergency services, with the watch you can share your position via satellite using find my to let your team know you kooked it on a downwinder and you're sitting on the beach 5km back.

If you are going offshore you still legally need a PLB so consider the watch as a backup option for more extreme runs.

and for further clarity, satellite messaging not available in Australia, only SOS and location sending via Find My.

note that newer iphones also have satellite SOS functionality as well.

personally ultra 3 is still best option for a simple device that you will always have with you to be able to call for help in a 000 type situation.

curious about the integrates harness line too. i thought the V1 stash would have had a larger take-up but haven't really seen many of them around.

Maybe I am misunderstanding this whole conversation but why wouldn't you just shim the mast?

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FranP said..
Jesse Yoder proposed this adjustable trim concept to modify PW camber - deeper profile for low wind, flatter for high wind:


I'm not convinced this is the optimal way to implement the idea, but I do think adjustable camber is a major area for innovation in parawings. Done right, it could significantly increase the usable wind range.

Parawing click bar, where ya at Duotone

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Average
2 days per week surfing.
3.5 days parawing
.5 days wing
.5 days prone.

Looks like there is a half day wasted there?

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Youngbreezy said..


This has to be the most West Australian answer to that question ever. Sharks?? Nah not much of a problem hardly anything for 5 years ( forgets fatal shark attack at Port beach November 21 ). Ive been on the water 25 years and never had a problem other than the time a great white bumped me off my board and the other time I had a head on collision with a tiger shark

@ tumbleweed, yes sharks are definitely an issue in WA but it doesn't stop us. Just try not to stop and flap around for too long out deep. Definitely don't download the shark smart app as Baldy suggested it just says bloody sharks everywhere always

Yeah I guess it was a bit of a ham-fisted way to say that even if you spend a lot of time on the water, your odds of an interaction with a shark are extremely low, and being in an attack is even lower (and up until a few months ago I would have said that the chance of being attacked while on foil was nonexistent). There are a lot of people windsurfing, kitesurfing, winging and foiling regularly here and statistically speaking none of us have been killed by a shark, and nearly all attacks are freedivers, swimmers and surfers sitting in the water, which we don't do much of.

[The GW definitely was having a go at me, and sent me 2m in the air while I was getting up on my board but it was after sunset during salmon season at secret harbour, the other couple of times I was inadvertently the aggressor (I forgot I also hit a tiger at Hillary's with my foil).]

As DTee says, you're definitely more likely to be killed by a BYD shark than a WA shark. Not that statistics help the individual, but if you managed to find a shark in a week-long visit to Perth I'd be pretty astonished.

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dieseagull said..

CH3MTR4IL5 said..
a tiger that I hit at speed and snapped my board a fair way offshore at Scarborough

Far out that doesn't sound fun!

yeah scared the crap out of both of us, it thrashed around and bolted and I tried to do the same, tried to ride the board back but the delaminated section kept acting as a brake and too many sharp edges so ended up with a long post-sunset body drag.

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Stumbleweed said..
Thanks for the detailed local breakdown. Are there many hazards of a marine biological nature to avoid?

shark-wise, nothing notable in last five years in the metro area - last two major attacks have been bull sharks in the river.

in 25 years of extensive time on the water I've seen two small hammerheads and a tiger shark that was resident at hillary's, and had two interactions kitesurfing (a GW hit me from below and dented my board at secret harbour and a tiger that I hit at speed and snapped my board a fair way offshore at Scarborough). Both of those were around salmon spawning later in the year.

yeah they missed a trick there as it would have been easy to put a zipped stash on the back for either/or.

or go all in with an impact vest with a harness attachment and storage.

still for only $40 more than an ozone waist belt it is not a bad bit of kit.

that ozone powerpack bag is one of the best ways to carry a second para that I've used, will be interesting to see what their new pack looks like.

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sir ROWDY said..
My 2cents -

1 - Jam Vest just looks ugly, I also don't think it really solves any issues once you figure out a good technique to stow, in my eyes it maybe even makes things harder as pushing a wing down and in is easier while pumping than pushing sideways. (stroke your stomach pat your head type scenario).

5 - I really think the simplest and most obvious design (like the Ozone) is all that's needed. The only things that need to be improved in my opinion is a bit more support for using it more as a harness (maybe a positive of the Manera for now).

The Jam vest is 1000% easier than using the Ozone waist belt. And for a bigger parawing it is miles better again. I have both and use both and can tell you that it is sensationally easy to stow, literal seconds. You can also be a lot more loosey goosey on your packup before you stow, as there is a lot more space. On a 3m, I just do a single fold from the bottom to the ribs and chuck it in.

I tried using the Jam bar holder today as promised and it does not work well, the horns on the Ozone make it difficult to stick in and it undoes all the benefits of the quick shove in of the whole thing.

It is mostly straight coast so anywhere has swell. It depends a bit on your confidence level, eg on bashing through shorebreak and what is convenient location-wise.

There are easy entry points at Port Beach or Leighton's in Fremantle but this area has a bit less swell, then more exposed as you go further north (loosely).

Next spot north is Swanbourne, just north of Grant street beach past the small headland - in between Leighton's and Swanbourne there is a few reef sections and it is probably best to avoid this whole stretch for launching unless you have a local with you.

Then city beach beside the northern groyne (don't go to the south one as this is usually flagged for swimming), which is a bit more exposed but the only real pick between swanbourne and city's.

Then its mostly exposed beach break through until Trigg point, there is a little spot at Bennion beach you can get out at, then North beach (south of the jetty), then Marmion beach (Troy ave entrance).

After that, the north side of Hillary's breakwater provides a really easy entrance and some flat water, and you can get out the back to some moderate sized swell.

My pick for solid waves is North beach, it is sheltered for a reasonably easy entry and you are straight into some solid swell on a perfect angle for upwind-downwind. If that looks like a hard entry, then Troy ave has a sheltered deep section that lets you get up and out through the break. If it all looks too hectic, then either Port or Hillary's.

Downwind run options depending on length and commitment levels:

Port Beach or Swanbourne to City Beach [common SUP run]
City Beach to Sorrento [northern folk common SUP/parawing run]
Bennion to Sorrento
Port to Sorrento (longest realistic run you can do).

A lot of wingers go City to Sorrento, if you get in early the entry is fine, and then Sorrento is much more sheltered so the exit is not too much of a drama once the wind picks up and the swell ramps in.

There are dedicated swimming areas on most perth beaches at regular intervals, with lifeguards present. These are marked by red and yellow flags at each end of the patrolled area (usually 50-100m wide) - STAY 200m OFFSHORE and don't launch/come ashore in these areas (in particular if you are finishing at city's or sorrento you will be coming in near these).

Next week is going to be fire, I would try and get more than one session, or an excellent window for a trial separation from your partner?

Secondly, we have arguably the best metro downwinder in the world, I would get out in the swell rather than the river if ya can.

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SlowlyButSurely said..

Review is great as per Gav's usual. but I reiterate again my opinion about the upwind capability of the PP which is not that far off from the PR. Whoever comes from BRM Kanaha's and Ka'a learnt the hard way. Basically riding parawing on front lines and sail at 40-45deg. I have seen people reaching unreal angles, even on the Ka'a
also the review does not mention the much improved construction of the PP. It was reported in multiple venues how battens stitching and trailing edge of the Pocket Rocket developed issues over time. The PP addresses both.

pull wise there is no comparison. The PP starts earlier than the PR. Once again it is a matter of habits and people coming from BRMs will have an edge. With the PP sail has to be placed deeper and lower in the window compared to the PR to take off.

i am the guy outside the chorus here, and probably it is due to the condition specifics I usually ride. The PR in sizes 4.3 and 5 turned very poor, it was really bad for quick retracts and redeploys and very prone to line tangles. The PP improves ALL these issues.

I didn't get the chance to ride the larger PP's but I would absolutely agree that they will really shine compared with the PR in 4.3/5.

Ultimately, Ozone is a bit of a victim of its own success, in that the PR performs extraordinarily well upwind - the PP is ahead of most parawings on the market on nearly every front, but it does point upwind a little less and is a little slower upwind. This is just physics, you can't have everything and that's one of the tradeoffs for stability. If the PR wasn't there for comparison, I don't think most of us would notice - it is obvious riding back to back that there is a difference, but in most conditions its not so stark that you would really notice it day to day.

Ref your comment @Holoholo, I ride with harness right at the front of the bar on the PR and the PP.

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BWalnut said..

SlowlyButSurely said.. Only the bundled As as far as I am concerned. Why would you want to grab all? Easier stow?

Holoholo said.. I generally like to stow using all front lines unless I'm completely lit as it saves a step trying to sort out the leading edge.

As Holoholo said, I prefer to skip the step of gathering the tips. Especially since I ride the smaller sizes at 3m and under. I find it smoother to grab all the lines, pull until the tips reach my hand, then stroke the center lines into position and stow. Doing it that way I don't actually have to look at the parawing while I am packing and stowing. The center line collapse is nice when overpowered for sure but I definitely have to look down to gather the tips.

So, I just wanted to confirm that both styles of collapsing are still good to go and there's no new reason/design that presents a full A-line collapse.

Its a bit trickier to do it using all the A-lines because they skew out a lot and directly from the bar, plus you have the mixer in the way as well. The way the centre bit concertinas it is pretty easy to then grab the two outliers, I think you'll find you will probably migrate to the intended manner.

This is really an area where Kiteboarding WA could step up and promote knowledge- arrange signage with local councils and put out this stuff on newsletters. I hear absolutely nothing from them in between renewals.

Clear signage in popular areas allows locals, visitors and non-kiters alike to know whats in place.

My first comment was after a particular brand's team riders were kiting at city beach south end in between the flags and trigg at the main break.

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KB7 said..
I have owned a 3.6PR since its release and recently demoed the 3.6PP and while I agree with most of the comments in the original posters excellent review i will add a couple of points.

Overall I came away underwhelmed although I would like to try the PP again in solid wind and waves where the ease of pack down it what I'm looking for but for now I wouldn't trade the upwind performance of the PR.

Thanks for adding your experience KB7- I also found the tacking harder but I am very inconsistent at it so couldn't guarantee that was a fault of the PP rather than my skills and adapting to it.

Your point on light wind is sound, I estimated my angle differences based on being in the powered sweet spot, but it felt like there was a much more pronounced delta at the low end. Less of an issue in perfect conditions but you certainly know about it when you reach the margins.

I also suspect you could get more out of the PR at the top end of the range where you can oversheet it right at the end of the wind window and jink a higher angle during gusts, but thats a fractional use case for most riders.

That calculation assumes that both parawings produce the same speed on the same foil, which I don't think is true. Your speed is not determined solely by the foil.

As your opening statement says, VMG is a
combination of speed and upwind angle, and my assertion is that at its maximum upwind angle, the PP is both pointing lower than the PR and is producing less speed.

PW: Power Pack 3.6 / Pocket Rocket 3.6
Gear: 85L x 5'10 x 18" board, Armstrong MA890/130 Surf tail
Rider: ~80kg, 2nd season parawinging, riding Flow then PR, ~10 years general foiling
Style: mostly downwind, and up and downs
Conditions: variable wind: as low as 8 gusting 13kt / high as 21 gusting 26kt (4:15PM to 6:45PM), ~2-3 ft wind swell
No brand affiliations, I pay retail. PP on demo from Action Sports WA.

Out at Pinnaroo for a solid couple of hours in some pretty variable wind so got to put the PP through its paces in both overpowered, underpowered and goldilocks conditions in a very short space of time! Fire away with any questions I haven't answered.

Bottom line up front - the Power Pack an excellent parawing and it is very hard to fault. That said, it's not a Pocket Rocket killer. Here's the lowdown:

Stashing - Is pretty much faultless. The front line high split is a cinch, one grab and down it goes, every time. First time I did it in light winds I ended up with the parawing wrapped around my head as it just fell out of the sky when I grabbed it with the usual level of pull I would use for the PR. In strong winds, it is equally easy - you don't need to force the lines together like the PR, and it doesn't spin around like the PR will if you go the centre two line grab. The slightly thicker lines are much nicer to handle and less prone to a tangle as you are packing up. [PP wins]

Relaunch - far more consistent with the PR, the catching of the last rib doesn't happen. Out of 30 or so relaunches on foil I had one fail, where the A-lines wrapped around the B line centre knot and required a sit-down and untangle. The bar is less inclined to catch the A or C lines and is a nice size. [PP wins]

Riding - Exceptionally stable - if you have seen the promo videos of hooked in no-handed rides, this is not pro-level whitewashing, you can quite comfortably do this even in gusty, messy conditions. Hooked in, the ride upwind is comfortable and the wing sits there with rock-solid stability. Riding unhooked feels lighter on the bar, and the stall and dropping into the power zone is easy and controlled. The upwind capability is lacking as you have probably read/seen elsewhere. The conditions were so variable that it was difficult to get some solid long back-to-back runs to measure this, but eyeballing off Little Island there is at least 3-5 degrees difference. Again, I don't have the measurements to back this up, but it also feels slower - the more aggressive scallop at the back end feels like it is not as quick. Hopping back on the PR it is a joy powering upwind and feels faster. The PR is moving about more but just feels better. Think the difference between a high-aspect foil and a low-aspect foil, its not necessarily a bad thing, but there are sacrifices to increased stability. [PR wins]

Get Up - as per the literature, there is 'low-end grunt', but the slightly higher structural stability on the PR makes the pump up easier on the PR for me. I combine a pump up with a fairly aggressive wank of the wing which gets me up in fairly light conditions (see wind chart, rode this whole time). That didn't work as well on the PP. To be fair, first time on it so some technique changes may improve this, but I definitely could get up on the PR at a lower point. [PR wins]

Which one do you need?
So the $1700 question. should you get a Power Pack? Well, the short answers. if you already have a Pocket Rocket - probably not. If you're buying a new parawing - maybe.

Ultimately, the PP is a great downwinding parawing - but that brings us to the quandary of the sport - you don't really use a parawing when you downwind! You get up on foil and pack it away and hopefully don't pull it out again. So if you're only doing it once, do you need a really easy stash? And do you need to be able to relaunch on foil? Personally, in a downwinder my PW will be in use for under 5 minutes in a 1-hour session.

If downwinding is the only thing you do, then the PP is the no-brainer choice. But. if you don't have the time and resources to always be downwinding, the up and down session is the great joy of the sport. And for this, optimising for upwind performance is going to maximise your time riding. The PR remains my choice for an all-round parawing - it points higher and feels nicer riding upwind.

Choose the PP:
-If you primarily, or only downwind
-Speed of stashing and deploying on foil is important to you (eg wave-riding at a break)
-In larger sizes (I haven't tested though), or if your reach is shorter

(Caveat - I have a long arm span and my daily driver downwinding is the 3m, so the stash on that size doesn't bother me too much. In the larger sizes or if you have shorter arms, the PP may be a better option.)

General questions:
Can I learn on it? Can't see why not. I didn't see anything that would be an issue compared with the PR and the lines are a bit easier to manage.
Should I sell my PR's and buy PP's? No, unless one of the things above was going to make you change parawings anyway, there is nothing that will change your life.

Ultimately, both of these are sensational parawings, so don't overthink it - whichever way you're leaning in the Ozone space, you won't regret either of them (or a combination).

As a final aside, the new bag is great - I used that to put the parawing I wasn't using in while on the water, and forgot it was there.


Reference wind conditions (1615h-184h5)