What's the recommended wing size/ wind range for winging on a full sinker approx 4'6 30 lts.
I seem to need 20 kns with a 4m but my mate gets going in 12-15 with a 5m.

What's your weight and his weight/board?

I'm 82kg and mate is 70 kg

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kobo said..
I'm 82kg and mate is 70 kg

If you were on a 42L board and 5m you could prob get going in 15knts. I find it's more how constant the wind is. If it's constant 20knts no prob but if 20knt gusts with 12 knot average the wind isn't there long enough to get me going on 40L board at 89kg so I use a 85L most of time as our wind is pretty poor

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leepasty said..

I find it's more how constant the wind is. If it's constant 20knts no prob but if 20knt gusts with 12 knot average the wind isn't there long enough to get me going on 40L board at 89kg so I use a 85L most of time as our wind is pretty poor

+1
Wind quality is a big difference.
Main reason i stick to my 85l, i will happily trade playfulness and surfy feel for the quicker takeoff it gives in iffy,short gust conditions.
And this summer has been awful in quality,wind full of holes every session :(

Yeh thanks guys , That makes sense, the wind here is usually in the 12-18 kn bracket and not constant which makes it frustrating trying to get going on a sinker with a 4m. 20 kns + is not very common here so I think I'm better off getting a 5m wing and maybe a 35-40 ltr board.

I have a 75 L Armstrong FG 5'2" that I sink big time in average lite winds. It's -15L under my weight. Was watching a buddy yesterday start his 30L Slingshot Alien Air. He's 60 kg and was doing the same knee starts I do with the 75 L. So -30 L seems doable, though I've not pushed it that far. At this point, I'm ok with having a dedicated wing board, different from a prone foil or kite foil board. Would be nice to have one board, but I like being able to paddle back to shore when the wind poops out. Smaller boards pump better without a doubt, but personally not looking to get a wing board for better pumping. The 5.2 pumps surprisingly well, especially since I ride it almost hang five.

I'm using the alien air also , so what size wing and how strong wing does he need to get going on that board ?

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Pasquales said..
I have a 75 L Armstrong FG 5'2" that I sink big time in average lite winds. It's -15L under my weight. Was watching a buddy yesterday start his 30L Slingshot Alien Air. He's 60 kg and was doing the same knee starts I do with the 75 L. So -30 L seems doable, though I've not pushed it that far. At this point, I'm ok with having a dedicated wing board, different from a prone foil or kite foil board. Would be nice to have one board, but I like being able to paddle back to shore when the wind poops out. Smaller boards pump better without a doubt, but personally not looking to get a wing board for better pumping. The 5.2 pumps surprisingly well, especially since I ride it almost hang five.

Thats impressive on a 30l board. What winds were you in?

For your Also what advantage do you envisage with having to balance on your knees then to your feet rather than already be on your feet once the board rises using the traditional squat method for a prone sized board ?

Kobo - Yesterday the wind was very lite, so much I was watching from shore . It was averaging 10 knots with the rare short 12 knot gusts. Surprisingly Ken was able to get up and fly around a little bit, albeit he was pumping like a son of a gun ! No way I could fly in those conditions, so just watched. With Ken's ailen air, he uses a Sabfoil W1000 and mainly a 5 m Takoon, but yesterday had a 6m. So to answer your question, winds like what you have. In better wind (+12), he's on foil most of the time.

Eppo - Good question. I'll have to ask him. I've seen him use the squat method with feet strapped in better wind. Yesterday I was surprised by the traditional knee start. Was it due to winds being so lite, he needed to hold the hand wing close, maybe keep the board from sinking to deep, because the gusts were so short ? Don't know, I had to leave before he got out.

Thanks, I've been using the stand method, but struggled to get higher than knee deep with my 4m wasp.
I have one front foot strap on to help keep the board under control while sunk.

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Pasquales said..
Kobo - Yesterday the wind was very lite, so much I was watching from shore . It was averaging 10 knots with the rare short 12 knot gusts. Surprisingly Ken was able to get up and fly around a little bit, albeit he was pumping like a son of a gun ! No way I could fly in those conditions, so just watched. With Ken's ailen air, he uses a Sabfoil W1000 and mainly a 5 m Takoon, but yesterday had a 6m. So to answer your question, winds like what you have. In better wind (+12), he's on foil most of the time.

Eppo - Good question. I'll have to ask him. I've seen him use the squat method with feet strapped in better wind. Yesterday I was surprised by the traditional knee start. Was it due to winds being so lite, he needed to hold the hand wing close, maybe keep the board from sinking to deep, because the gusts were so short ? Don't know, I had to leave before he got out.

Yeh man be great if you could ask him. Might be an option in those marginal winds where i struggle with the stand method.

Eppo:
My current wing board is a 75 L Armstrong FG. It's -15 under my weight, and sinks well under water. Gonna try winging a 40 L prone board.

Ah cool. See how you go on a 40L - a true sinker at your weight. Has some success in exmouth today, two big downwinders from graveyards to janz on the 34l. Shout out to larry foiler for some tips early on after our town beach DW on a stupidly Light easterly. Normal squat method still can see the stiinkbud method is applicale to small
prone board starts. But hey never know.

Here is a clip of FoiltheGreats with a sinker start where he uses the LE for stability while waiting on a gust. 30L board.
www.instagram.com/reel/CUSOdRzg333/?utm_medium=copy_link

Thanks for the shoutout!

I was mostly just knee starting the board in this session. Had a few deep water starts like in the video linked above but it was extremely tiring.

At 75kg-165lbs + gear it is a struggle on the 4'2" 30L. I think I need a little more volume just to make getting the nose to surface easier.
That seems to be the key, if you can pop the nose out you're good to go. A little more length seems to make this easier too. Seems to be a fine line.

If I'd buy a new prone for winging I'd probably get a 4'4"-4'6" 35-38L

Good to know about knee starting true "sinker boards". After watching several videos and seeing a friend knee start a low volume board in lite winds , it seems like an interesting challenge. Today worked on trying to balance my old prone board. The past several days the wind has been non-existent, so the goal was to see if it was exponentially more unstable . This epoxy board was made by a friend, based on comparing similar size commercial boards, my guess ~ 45 liters. Using the leading edge of the wing as support, knee balancing didn't feel any less crazy than the 75L Armstrong. Oldie definitely drops faster after letting go of the LE, but seems like enough time to get under the wing and start flapping. There wasn't enough wind to get the board up and moving, even while kneeling. Have to wait for a better day to assess more extensively.

I just dont see the point on a true prone sinker?
be already on your feet in squat position, ratchet yourself up then when you breach the surface you are already good to go - pump the foil up. Why put knees to feet in the equation when its not necessary.

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eppo said..
I just dont see the point on a true prone sinker?
be already on your feet in squat position, ratchet yourself up then when you breach the surface you are already good to go - pump the foil up. Why put knees to feet in the equation when its not necessary.

For me on this board 4'2" 30L it is just much easier to get the nose to the surface from the knee position. I imagine if I had a board with a few more litres and a little longer this would not be the case.

In my case, the board doesn't have strap inserts so balancing is not trivial. I've seen schoolies do the squat and get their buts out of quicksand in 11-12 knots. At 90 kg's, not convinced it's gonna work for me. Maybe holding the LE of the wing close to the rail can help. Seen plenty of videos out there of folks doing this with knee starts on prone boards. Won't hurt to try, right ?.

I managed to waterstart my 35L 4'6" prone today, for the first time. Couldn't be more stoked!! Conditions were pretty epic, 24-28kts. I epoxied in some inserts a week ago so that I could use footstraps, and I feel that that made it a whole lot easier. First I used my 5m wing to make sure I had enough power, but then I managed to get up on a 3.5m wing too. I mostly used larry foiler's "how to" video for reference, and after a few attempts it clicked. Managed to do about 20-30 more starts in the same session. I feel like once you get it you get it. Tricky part for me was staying balanced once both hands were on the handles, and I was pumping the wing to get the board to the surface. I found I had to stay squatted longer than I initially thought, in order to stay balanced, and only stand up slowly.

Anyways, I would really like to encourage anyone who's thinking about it, you'll never go back! The feeling of winging a small board is awesome.

ps.the board I was coming off of is a 90L Quatro. I'm 78kg.

www.instagram.com/p/CUYHlJeoL_c/?utm_source=ig_web_copy_link

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greg87foil said..
I managed to waterstart my 35L 4'6" prone today, for the first time. Couldn't be more stoked!! Conditions were pretty epic, 24-28kts. I epoxied in some inserts a week ago so that I could use footstraps, and I feel that that made it a whole lot easier. First I used my 5m wing to make sure I had enough power, but then I managed to get up on a 3.5m wing too. I mostly used larry foiler's "how to" video for reference, and after a few attempts it clicked. Managed to do about 20-30 more starts in the same session. I feel like once you get it you get it. Tricky part for me was staying balanced once both hands were on the handles, and I was pumping the wing to get the board to the surface. I found I had to stay squatted longer than I initially thought, in order to stay balanced, and only stand up slowly.

Anyways, I would really like to encourage anyone who's thinking about it, you'll never go back! The feeling of winging a small board is awesome.

ps.the board I was coming off of is a 90L Quatro. I'm 78kg.

www.instagram.com/p/CUYHlJeoL_c/?utm_source=ig_web_copy_link

Were you on your knees initially or squating on your feet?
video looks like a normal squat. Tip, as you het your feet in straps lean on the leading edge - you can sit like that forever. Having your wind all the way flagged out there - you will have issues in big swells/ currents.

yeh be interesting to see if being on your knees gets the board up quicker to surface.

I can sit in the squat position for as long as i want.


even if i dont get board to surface i can fall back and resume squat position without having to reset.


once board on surface 100 percent start rate.


but getting that bloody board to surface when wind isnt at the high end of whatever wing im on is the frustrating part at the moment.

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eppo said..

greg87foil said..
I managed to waterstart my 35L 4'6" prone today, for the first time. Couldn't be more stoked!! Conditions were pretty epic, 24-28kts. I epoxied in some inserts a week ago so that I could use footstraps, and I feel that that made it a whole lot easier. First I used my 5m wing to make sure I had enough power, but then I managed to get up on a 3.5m wing too. I mostly used larry foiler's "how to" video for reference, and after a few attempts it clicked. Managed to do about 20-30 more starts in the same session. I feel like once you get it you get it. Tricky part for me was staying balanced once both hands were on the handles, and I was pumping the wing to get the board to the surface. I found I had to stay squatted longer than I initially thought, in order to stay balanced, and only stand up slowly.

Anyways, I would really like to encourage anyone who's thinking about it, you'll never go back! The feeling of winging a small board is awesome.

ps.the board I was coming off of is a 90L Quatro. I'm 78kg.

www.instagram.com/p/CUYHlJeoL_c/?utm_source=ig_web_copy_link

Were you on your knees initially or squating on your feet?
video looks like a normal squat. Tip, as you het your feet in straps lean on the leading edge - you can sit like that forever. Having your wind all the way flagged out there - you will have issues in big swells/ currents.

yeh be interesting to see if being on your knees gets the board up quicker to surface.

I can sit in the squat position for as long as i want.


even if i dont get board to surface i can fall back and resume squat position without having to reset.


once board on surface 100 percent start rate.


but getting that bloody board to surface when wind isnt at the high end of whatever wing im on is the frustrating part at the moment.

This is exactly what I'm experiencing too. Been lucky with 25-35kt winds here last couple of days so I've got it dialed now.
But yeah, not on knees first, I start out by putting rear foot into the strap (holding nose of the board with left hand, and in same hand holding the leash about 10cm from where it connects to leading edge), then hold on to leading edge with right hand, use left hand to push nose down and get front foot in the strap, and in that position I can just rest with both hands on the wing and stay squatted forever. Frustrating indeed if there isn't enough wind because like you said, then it's almost impossible to get board to the surface. Don't know if there's tips for that?

Tried it out today on a DW run and I fell about 5 times, so I had to waterstart like this 5 times, but success rate was 75% I'd say. Strong winds so fairly easy.

But yeah, tips for getting board to surface quicker? Is it just harder pumping? Or angle of the board? Staying squatted longer?

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greg87foil said..

eppo said..

greg87foil said..
I managed to waterstart my 35L 4'6" prone today, for the first time. Couldn't be more stoked!! Conditions were pretty epic, 24-28kts. I epoxied in some inserts a week ago so that I could use footstraps, and I feel that that made it a whole lot easier. First I used my 5m wing to make sure I had enough power, but then I managed to get up on a 3.5m wing too. I mostly used larry foiler's "how to" video for reference, and after a few attempts it clicked. Managed to do about 20-30 more starts in the same session. I feel like once you get it you get it. Tricky part for me was staying balanced once both hands were on the handles, and I was pumping the wing to get the board to the surface. I found I had to stay squatted longer than I initially thought, in order to stay balanced, and only stand up slowly.

Anyways, I would really like to encourage anyone who's thinking about it, you'll never go back! The feeling of winging a small board is awesome.

ps.the board I was coming off of is a 90L Quatro. I'm 78kg.

www.instagram.com/p/CUYHlJeoL_c/?utm_source=ig_web_copy_link

Were you on your knees initially or squating on your feet?
video looks like a normal squat. Tip, as you het your feet in straps lean on the leading edge - you can sit like that forever. Having your wind all the way flagged out there - you will have issues in big swells/ currents.

yeh be interesting to see if being on your knees gets the board up quicker to surface.

I can sit in the squat position for as long as i want.


even if i dont get board to surface i can fall back and resume squat position without having to reset.


once board on surface 100 percent start rate.


but getting that bloody board to surface when wind isnt at the high end of whatever wing im on is the frustrating part at the moment.

This is exactly what I'm experiencing too. Been lucky with 25-35kt winds here last couple of days so I've got it dialed now.
But yeah, not on knees first, I start out by putting rear foot into the strap (holding nose of the board with left hand, and in same hand holding the leash about 10cm from where it connects to leading edge), then hold on to leading edge with right hand, use left hand to push nose down and get front foot in the strap, and in that position I can just rest with both hands on the wing and stay squatted forever. Frustrating indeed if there isn't enough wind because like you said, then it's almost impossible to get board to the surface. Don't know if there's tips for that?

Tried it out today on a DW run and I fell about 5 times, so I had to waterstart like this 5 times, but success rate was 75% I'd say. Strong winds so fairly easy.

But yeah, tips for getting board to surface quicker? Is it just harder pumping? Or angle of the board? Staying squatted longer?

100% my experience....if there's not enough bloody wing can't get that board to the surface

Yeh tried again in less than optimal wind. Got up once - then never again. Realty is you gotta run two boards. But given the experience / better texhnique with a prone board sink i think my second board doesnt have to be that big - even 50l or so would have worked yesterday even with a stinkbud method.

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eppo said..
Yeh tried again in less than optimal wind. Got up once - then never again. Realty is you gotta run two boards. But given the experience / better texhnique with a prone board sink i think my second board doesnt have to be that big - even 50l or so would have worked yesterday even with a stinkbud method.

Yeah nice! Now that I've learned the waterstart on my prone, my 90L feels veeeery big. Thinking of getting (or making) something in the 50-60L range for light wind and freestyle and sell the 90L.

whats your weight?

75kg. My 90L feels like a tanker. Yeh 50-60L be no worries i reckon.

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eppo said..
Yeh tried again in less than optimal wind. Got up once - then never again. Realty is you gotta run two boards. But given the experience / better texhnique with a prone board sink i think my second board doesnt have to be that big - even 50l or so would have worked yesterday even with a stinkbud method.

great feedback. what u reckon the stinkerbug start works on light wind up to -20l of your body weight?

I've recently dived into this rabbit hole in trying a board -20L and imo it's not worth it.
I weigh 80kgs and my daily wing board is my proper prone sinker 4'6 @ 40L I need about 16-17knots to get it up and going on my 5m wing. I then use my 77L 5'0 board in less than that and can get going in about 10knots.


I had the opportunity to demo a 4'4 57L board to try and replace my larger board but I found this in between size is very corky and unstable. There's too much volume to sink it properly like my prone board and it's considerably less stable than my 77L board. After a few sessions I got the starts nailed, I had to completely change my technique. I found the best way to start was to have one knee on the board and sit on my foot with my other leg in the water next to my mast for stability. Once I had the wing up it was simple to get the other knee up and get going but I still needed 14-15knots to achieve this. Any less and I would sink down to my knees and there would be too much drag to get me going. So imo to gain an extra 2 knots on the low end really wasn't worth it. I would much prefer my thinner prone board that feels way more connected to the foil when riding.

Depending on what low end of the wind range you want to ride in it might be worth it if you only ride in 15+ knots or have a big 6m wing. Your body weight also has a big part in it. If I only weighed 60-70kgs I would be able to get up in about 12knots.

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wicka said..
I've recently dived into this rabbit hole in trying a board -20L and imo it's not worth it.
I weigh 80kgs and my daily wing board is my proper prone sinker 4'6 @ 40L I need about 16-17knots to get it up and going on my 5m wing. I then use my 77L 5'0 board in less than that and can get going in about 10knots.


I had the opportunity to demo a 4'4 57L board to try and replace my larger board but I found this in between size is very corky and unstable. There's too much volume to sink it properly like my prone board and it's considerably less stable than my 77L board. After a few sessions I got the starts nailed, I had to completely change my technique. I found the best way to start was to have one knee on the board and sit on my foot with my other leg in the water next to my mast for stability. Once I had the wing up it was simple to get the other knee up and get going but I still needed 14-15knots to achieve this. Any less and I would sink down to my knees and there would be too much drag to get me going. So imo to gain an extra 2 knots on the low end really wasn't worth it. I would much prefer my thinner prone board that feels way more connected to the foil when riding.

Depending on what low end of the wind range you want to ride in it might be worth it if you only ride in 15+ knots or have a big 6m wing. Your body weight also has a big part in it. If I only weighed 60-70kgs I would be able to get up in about 12knots.

This is super helpful info, I'm staring down the same rabbit hole at the moment ;-P

I think id only feel comfortable going out on my 35L above 20kts right now, but ideally a bit more, so first question would be: (1) any tips for getting board up to surface in only 16-17kts? I'm exactly your weight btw, but my sinker is 5L less.

Still I would like to reduce the size of my "big board" from a 90L to something smaller. And I hear ya that perhaps it's better to get something in the 75L range rather than 60L range. Second question would be then: (2) how much noticeable difference will I see from going from 90L to 75L? Would than be worth it you think?

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wicka said..
I've recently dived into this rabbit hole in trying a board -20L and imo it's not worth it.
I weigh 80kgs and my daily wing board is my proper prone sinker 4'6 @ 40L I need about 16-17knots to get it up and going on my 5m wing. I then use my 77L 5'0 board in less than that and can get going in about 10knots.


I had the opportunity to demo a 4'4 57L board to try and replace my larger board but I found this in between size is very corky and unstable. There's too much volume to sink it properly like my prone board and it's considerably less stable than my 77L board. After a few sessions I got the starts nailed, I had to completely change my technique. I found the best way to start was to have one knee on the board and sit on my foot with my other leg in the water next to my mast for stability. Once I had the wing up it was simple to get the other knee up and get going but I still needed 14-15knots to achieve this. Any less and I would sink down to my knees and there would be too much drag to get me going. So imo to gain an extra 2 knots on the low end really wasn't worth it. I would much prefer my thinner prone board that feels way more connected to the foil when riding.

Depending on what low end of the wind range you want to ride in it might be worth it if you only ride in 15+ knots or have a big 6m wing. Your body weight also has a big part in it. If I only weighed 60-70kgs I would be able to get up in about 12knots.

Great info thanks Wicka, That has been my experience so far too with wind needed to get up on a sinker, but I have been on a 4m wing which I'm about to replace with a 5; don't want to go to a 6 as I feel it will be too big and get in the way in the surf.