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hilly said..

Seajuice said..

Windgenuity said..

Seajuice said..

Windgenuity said..
Here's a couple of screen grabs from an awesome DW'er I did a few weeks back. This wind is nuking (well over 30kn gusts into the 40's). Swells was pumping also. It's times like this that the behaviour of your wing is very important.

First shot is riding toeside free-winging at considerable speed.
Second shot is smoking on a swell in full free-wing - Wing just sitting there being good

In these conditions a wing dancing around like a wild cat is not an option! yYou have enough on as it is riding over 30km/h and taking huge drops.





Ride safe,

Regards,

JB

Your mad! There is no way I would go out in that! I haven't even got enough hair on my head as it is!

It was incredibly fun. So fun in fact, that I went back and did it again straight after. Wish I did a 3rd run now in hind sight. It is hard to see, but I was wearing floatation, a Helmet and leashes .

JB

Well done. Good to hear you thought safety in that.

Safer than kitesurfing in that wind which lots do, including myself. You would not like to watch this coast with hundreds of kiters downwinding with no safety gear every day. Yes, they go out deep, lots are close to shore, however. Not condoning a lack of safety gear just pointing out it is not unusual. Pretty big floaty devices you are tethered to. Make sure you have the ability to swim in no matter where you go.

we went out about 3km before starting - didn't see any kites out there .

I often Wing about 3-5km offshore, I like racing the offshore yachts and getting out in the real swells and wind.

Here's a typical afternoon run after work were I tack up wind then DW back in a NE'er. These tacks are a little over 3km offshore.


I guess another factor is I am usually on my own on these runs, so I choose floatation and protection, plus I always have my Apple Watch with Cell as my back up.

Always an advocate for safety, when shyte goes wrong, it often goes very wrong.

Ride safe,

JB

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Windgenuity said.. when shyte goes wrong, it often goes very wrong.

Ride safe,

JB

Agree. My point was that I feel way more comfortable on my wing than my kite. Kites are another level of shyte going wrong. The wind drops no probs just paddle in on your sup, compared to self-rescue with kite, bar/lines and tiny board. Even a slight offshore makes swimming in with kite, bar and lines problematic, done that from about a k out. Not fun.
Winged offshore winds the other day which I would not do on a kite.

Do you find the swell appears to be moving faster further out to sea? or is it just my imagination

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kobo said..
Do you find the swell appears to be moving faster further out to sea?

Yes it does. It begins to be slowed down at depths less than 20 times the wave length (aka 2 to 3 km depths).
Although it is noticeable (human senses roughly only perceive changes of more than 5%) for less than 50m depth for 10s period swells.

You can compute the swell speed ("Phase velocity") with the following online calculator:
planetcalc.com/4406/

Thanks Colas , interesting ...I certainly feels faster downwinding 3-5 k offshore than it does in closer.

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Piros said..
The boom is so strong you'll never bend it .

No question about the advantages of the Duotone boom.
You say it won't bend. It probably won't in the hands of an experienced sailor, but it may happen in the hands of a novice, if he /she happens to fall on it or if it hits the board. If this happens, it will offset all the other advantages, because of the replacement cost and possibly because of safety issues as well,

In fact, my local dealer had a demo on special some time ago precisely because of a bent boom... When I asked him, he told me that they used it on snow last winter and somebody fell on it( or the wing hit something hard on the terrain. This is why I desisted...
As much keen to buy Duotone as I was before, I now wonder whether I shouldn't buy Slingshot or other no-boom brands..
The only question I have is whether a 4.25 m wing will have sufficient power to pull a 12 ft WindSup in light winds.(I will not be using a foil).

Francone

Has the Echo solved the swinging problem when depowered ?

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Alysum said..
Has the Echo solved the swinging problem when depowered ?

Yes 100%

The boom stiffness with this upgrade.....stiffer than the old boom. Stiffer than the new boom in the short body. A hair less stiff than the new boom in the long body.

Dealers should be screaming for this upgrade from the factory ;D ;D

Here's a comparison of the Hot Wings Maui wing (centre strut with boom[s]) vs. the V1 Duotone (full boom without centre strut). I personally prefer having a boom.

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Alysum said..
Has the Echo solved the swinging problem when depowered ?

disclaimer, I'm a Duotone & Slingshot dealer in USA

I would say it has been addressed but not eliminated. I rode the v1 Foil Wing and almost never used the front handle. With the Echos, I use the front handle all the time. I also sell Slingshot and have tried other wings like BRM, F-One, etc... the Echo is not as stable as the other wings when flagged out compared to the Unit, F-One, BRM, Slingwing v2, etc... but it is stable enough. I've had some 2 minute rides on boat wakes holding the front handle.... something I probably never could have done on the original foil wing.

Another consideration is the swing weight of the boom. Not having the boom makes the whole wing feel lighter when you're moving the wing around a lot (pumping, maneuvering, etc...)... when you're just locked and loaded I don't really notice the weight at all... also, in really light winds if you're on the verge of outrunning the wind and flipping the apparent wind, the lighter boomless wings tend to stay flat just a hair longer.

That said, my personal preference is still the Echo for myself. YMMV. I also have Slingwings and Units, but for me the boom is much easier on my fingers/hands and is the best wing for tacking. The Unit also tacks well and has nice handles. The Slingwing v2 is probably the most stable of the 3 when flagging, and the handles for me seem a little narrow, but I can ride it just fine. I find myself having to grab the upper y-handle when going into tacks.

I have a feeling a one-piece light carbon boom is in my future.

Another unexpected bonus of the boom is only one bladder to inflate/deflate. I leave my boom on after I deflate (despite explicit warnings not to) and roll each wingtip to the boom and secure w/ the wrist least. This makes my setup/breakdown time very short, and I drive a van w/ windsurfing gear in it, so I store it the way I would store any windsurf sail.

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sunsetsailboards said..

Alysum said..
Has the Echo solved the swinging problem when depowered ?

disclaimer, I'm a Duotone & Slingshot dealer in USA

I would say it has been addressed but not eliminated. I rode the v1 Foil Wing and almost never used the front handle. With the Echos, I use the front handle all the time. I also sell Slingshot and have tried other wings like BRM, F-One, etc... the Echo is not as stable as the other wings when flagged out compared to the Unit, F-One, BRM, Slingwing v2, etc... but it is stable enough. I've had some 2 minute rides on boat wakes holding the front handle.... something I probably never could have done on the original foil wing.

Another consideration is the swing weight of the boom. Not having the boom makes the whole wing feel lighter when you're moving the wing around a lot (pumping, maneuvering, etc...)... when you're just locked and loaded I don't really notice the weight at all... also, in really light winds if you're on the verge of outrunning the wind and flipping the apparent wind, the lighter boomless wings tend to stay flat just a hair longer.

That said, my personal preference is still the Echo for myself. YMMV. I also have Slingwings and Units, but for me the boom is much easier on my fingers/hands and is the best wing for tacking. The Unit also tacks well and has nice handles. The Slingwing v2 is probably the most stable of the 3 when flagging, and the handles for me seem a little narrow, but I can ride it just fine. I find myself having to grab the upper y-handle when going into tacks.

I have a feeling a one-piece light carbon boom is in my future.

Another unexpected bonus of the boom is only one bladder to inflate/deflate. I leave my boom on after I deflate (despite explicit warnings not to) and roll each wingtip to the boom and secure w/ the wrist least. This makes my setup/breakdown time very short, and I drive a van w/ windsurfing gear in it, so I store it the way I would store any windsurf sail.

Refreshingly honest assessment - I'd buy a wing from you.

Duotone is experimenting with a Unit type wing with a boom rather than handles. The Hot Wings Maui wings are another example of wings with a centre strut and a boom. I have a 5 metre Echo (no centre strut but has a boom) and two Wasps that have been retrofitted with booms. My experience is that the centre strut makes for a better behaved wing -- less flipping around when in the water and just easier to control. I'm sticking with booms but if given the choice and all other things being equal, I would purchase a wing with a centre strut + boom over a wing with a boom but no centre strut. I suspect others feel the same so maybe we'll see a Unit wing from Duotone with a boom rather than handles and other wings with both a centre strut and a boom.

Does this end the debate of boom or no boom?

It is personal preference. handles for me because I like the small pack down, simple setup and easy carry to the beach. Lightness and better handling are added bonuses.

Half way down the page linked below is a video of Alan Cadiz testing a Unit like wing with a boom. The debate certainly isn't over! I'd purchase something like AC is riding over the regular Unit.

www.standupzone.com/forum/index.php?topic=36136.30

In the link below are pictures and a video of Cabrinha's new wing with two mini booms. There must be a demand or no one would waste time and money developing this stuff and then hope someone buys it.

www.standupzone.com/forum/index.php/topic,36461.0.html

Here's a review of the Cabrinha V2 wing that has mini booms:

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dejavu said..
Here's a review of the Cabrinha V2 wing that has mini booms:

I normally can't stand Cabrinha gear, but this is pretty interesting with the dual struts and mini boom. They sure blew it on the leash mount though, what were they thinking?

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MLB007 said..

DavidJohn said..
I'm not a fan of the boom..

It doesn't just sit there and float depowered when holding by the front handle like when getting going.. and it doesn't follow you without swooping left and right in sometimes a very violent motion.

Watch this vid from about 1.50 to see what I mean.

See how in this pic the Naish follows without the swooping.

I think they all do that. My SlingWing does too. There are moments when it doesn't, but it will. Holding it one handle/strap back of that dead middle grip seems to help quite a bit.

F one's do not do that.

Here's a video with a wing that looks like it has been retrofitted with one-half of a windsurfing boom. It has both the centre strut and a "hard" boom.

Another replacing handles with a boom video:

My current thoughts on the post question ...

My decision was to go for the Unit was based on a simplistic premise "what am I using it for". The answer is waves/ swell riding. Hence I wanted a wing with good low end and more importantly that was super stable holding with one hand.

Whilst I only had a go at the first gen duotone boom wing (apparently the instability has been reduced a lot on the new version ) it must still be an inherent characteristic of using a boom.


as far as gybing etc sure it would be easier but I'm not finding the handles an issue once you have the technique sorted. Sure a boom would be better for this (and to micro adjust hand positions on the fly as well) but stability one handed on a wave/ swell was my priority. My priority is to get upwind and ride the wave/swell one handed as much as possible.


if I was doing more long ocean runs like I see above then yeh I'd probably go a boom.

... and then there is the combinations coming out. Lots of innovation happening.


on a side note, the cost of using say a unit (which is still super rigid with a tight trailing edge) for a good low end, is the blow back in gusts when suddenly over powered. Kind of limits the angle you can point before she rips your arms off or cavitates on you


kind of like kites I suppose. Wave kites sit back in the window, are gruntier, smaller wind range - whilst higher aspect kites rip you upwind, have a bigger wind range but limit your down the line wave riding.
But of course even if you have a boom or not you adjust and get used to it and make it work.

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PeterP said..

sunsetsailboards said..

Alysum said..
Has the Echo solved the swinging problem when depowered ?

disclaimer, I'm a Duotone & Slingshot dealer in USA

I would say it has been addressed but not eliminated. I rode the v1 Foil Wing and almost never used the front handle. With the Echos, I use the front handle all the time. I also sell Slingshot and have tried other wings like BRM, F-One, etc... the Echo is not as stable as the other wings when flagged out compared to the Unit, F-One, BRM, Slingwing v2, etc... but it is stable enough. I've had some 2 minute rides on boat wakes holding the front handle.... something I probably never could have done on the original foil wing.

Another consideration is the swing weight of the boom. Not having the boom makes the whole wing feel lighter when you're moving the wing around a lot (pumping, maneuvering, etc...)... when you're just locked and loaded I don't really notice the weight at all... also, in really light winds if you're on the verge of outrunning the wind and flipping the apparent wind, the lighter boomless wings tend to stay flat just a hair longer.

That said, my personal preference is still the Echo for myself. YMMV. I also have Slingwings and Units, but for me the boom is much easier on my fingers/hands and is the best wing for tacking. The Unit also tacks well and has nice handles. The Slingwing v2 is probably the most stable of the 3 when flagging, and the handles for me seem a little narrow, but I can ride it just fine. I find myself having to grab the upper y-handle when going into tacks.

I have a feeling a one-piece light carbon boom is in my future.

Another unexpected bonus of the boom is only one bladder to inflate/deflate. I leave my boom on after I deflate (despite explicit warnings not to) and roll each wingtip to the boom and secure w/ the wrist least. This makes my setup/breakdown time very short, and I drive a van w/ windsurfing gear in it, so I store it the way I would store any windsurf sail.

Refreshingly honest assessment - I'd buy a wing from you.

thank you, peter.

one more data point... when my girlfriend tried the Slingwing v2 and the Unit, she said the handles felt like carrying grocery bags lol

unfortunately, we both prefer the same gear. I usually give her the Echo 4m, and I take the Unit 4m (Unit has a bit more power size for size, and my transitions are better, so I want her to have the easiest setup). I find the boom much easier for doing stuff like duck jibes and feel more control on things like backwinded 360s.

really liking the Unit, too. it definitely has a different feel from the Echo... has much more upward pull and the pumping technique is slightly different. it's very light and flags out well which is nice when riding swells. In lighter wind, I feel more comfortable w/ it flipping over and "star fishing". i think it would even better w/ stiffer BRM style handles or even better a full boom. Might have to attach something to the handles.

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sunsetsailboards said..

PeterP said..

sunsetsailboards said..

Alysum said..
Has the Echo solved the swinging problem when depowered ?

disclaimer, I'm a Duotone & Slingshot dealer in USA

I would say it has been addressed but not eliminated. I rode the v1 Foil Wing and almost never used the front handle. With the Echos, I use the front handle all the time. I also sell Slingshot and have tried other wings like BRM, F-One, etc... the Echo is not as stable as the other wings when flagged out compared to the Unit, F-One, BRM, Slingwing v2, etc... but it is stable enough. I've had some 2 minute rides on boat wakes holding the front handle.... something I probably never could have done on the original foil wing.

Another consideration is the swing weight of the boom. Not having the boom makes the whole wing feel lighter when you're moving the wing around a lot (pumping, maneuvering, etc...)... when you're just locked and loaded I don't really notice the weight at all... also, in really light winds if you're on the verge of outrunning the wind and flipping the apparent wind, the lighter boomless wings tend to stay flat just a hair longer.

That said, my personal preference is still the Echo for myself. YMMV. I also have Slingwings and Units, but for me the boom is much easier on my fingers/hands and is the best wing for tacking. The Unit also tacks well and has nice handles. The Slingwing v2 is probably the most stable of the 3 when flagging, and the handles for me seem a little narrow, but I can ride it just fine. I find myself having to grab the upper y-handle when going into tacks.

I have a feeling a one-piece light carbon boom is in my future.

Another unexpected bonus of the boom is only one bladder to inflate/deflate. I leave my boom on after I deflate (despite explicit warnings not to) and roll each wingtip to the boom and secure w/ the wrist least. This makes my setup/breakdown time very short, and I drive a van w/ windsurfing gear in it, so I store it the way I would store any windsurf sail.

Refreshingly honest assessment - I'd buy a wing from you.

thank you, peter.

one more data point... when my girlfriend tried the Slingwing v2 and the Unit, she said the handles felt like carrying grocery bags lol

unfortunately, we both prefer the same gear. I usually give her the Echo 4m, and I take the Unit 4m (Unit has a bit more power size for size, and my transitions are better, so I want her to have the easiest setup). I find the boom much easier for doing stuff like duck jibes and feel more control on things like backwinded 360s.

really liking the Unit, too. it definitely has a different feel from the Echo... has much more upward pull and the pumping technique is slightly different. it's very light and flags out well which is nice when riding swells. In lighter wind, I feel more comfortable w/ it flipping over and "star fishing". i think it would even better w/ stiffer BRM style handles or even better a full boom. Might have to attach something to the handles.

I've never hd a problem with backwinding using a 5 metre Echo (I noticed a lot of backwinding with a 6 metre Cabrinha V2 I demoed). How does the Unit compare with the Echo regarding backwinding, especially when heading upwind?