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Zsadar said..

Windbot said..
This whole S25 PVC business has me wanting to swap my S25 order for a Wasp. I know it's heavier, but I'm wondering if there isn't another reason X-ply isn't used like it is in wave sails.

Save $$$ on their end and ensure you need to buy the next seasons one when yours is toast in 6 months. Just get the S25 and have the window replaced!!

Hard to understand how you can be so presumptive. First, if we accept your premise, do you think the consumer is so stupid that they would buy another wing if the first one only lasted 6 months? Second, do you think Naish is so stupid to assume their consumers are so stupid? Third, are you really trying to give serious advice based on some specialized knowledge you have or do you have some other agenda here?

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Zsadar said..

tarquin1 said..
I was having a conversation with someone a while ago that ran a surf shop for years. He said it's hard for the companies and harder for the guys running the shops. He gave up. Very different market here.
As an example everyone wants a 10kg 14ft sup. The companies make them. Then everyone complains they are fragile and the company is crap. There is a fiberglass version that is less than 1kg heavier and 1000 bucks cheaper that is much tougher but no one buys them. Everyone wants a carbon race board.The guy that runs the shop is stuck in the middle with a dinged carbon board he had to refund. And a load of glass boards no one will buy.
Lots of people asked for a window. Everyone wants the lightest possible wing. Yes they could be lighter. Yes the bladder could be smaller but they would be even more expensive and explode the first time someone over pumped it or crashed it. Or the window would delam when people dont wash there kit and scrunch it up and shove it in the bag.
There is always a compromise.
Don't get me wrong I have no sympathy for the big companies.
A good friend that was a boat builder would say people always want light,strong and cheap. He would say choose 2 of those you cant have all 3!

You couldn't have put it better and I couldn't agree more. Fibreglass Epic ski's are nearly $1000 cheaper, and for
You could probably argue the Slingwing V1 will outlast everything. Super heavy and rigid leach. Is it what people want? nope, that's why V2 is moving to lighter weight.

Out of interest & from what I've gathered the WASP bladder is the biggest and allows you to point highest?

I dont wing to be honest.
Not sure why the WASP would point higher if this is true. Maybe the whole setup is better for pointing. Flatter,tighter leech etc and is not so good down range. I am sure it has a lot to do with the guy holding it as well. The foil etc.
It has been mentioned but will we see a range of Wings. More specific wings for guys who want to foil at high speeds upwind and wings for downwinding.

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Windbot said..
This whole S25 PVC business has me wanting to swap my S25 order for a Wasp. I know it's heavier, but I'm wondering if there isn't another reason X-ply isn't used like it is in wave sails.

X ply cracks. PVC is more tolerant of abuse.

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Zsadar said..

Out of interest & from what I've gathered the WASP bladder is the biggest and allows you to point highest?

The WASP 6m bladder is huge. Pumping it up is a pain and it does not point upwind well compared the Naish S25..... but it does not flex when you pump onto the foil. And that is why I love it as a big guy.

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DWF said..

Windbot said..
This whole S25 PVC business has me wanting to swap my S25 order for a Wasp. I know it's heavier, but I'm wondering if there isn't another reason X-ply isn't used like it is in wave sails.

X ply cracks. PVC is more tolerant of abuse.

I suppose it would if you folded it, then again with all the windsurf sails I've ever owned in x-ply I've never considered folding them.

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kobo said..

Gorgo said..
I fear that chasing high performance in a surf wing is a but like putting lipstick on a pig. If you shut your eyes it feels good, but it's still a pig.

If you want to go fast then get a kite foil racing kit. Even a freeride kite foiling kit will travel at double your speed and at far higher angles. Even windsurf foil racing kit is slow compared to kite foiling.

The main factors for something like wing foiling is ease of use and versatility, robustness and low price.

For kites, particularly surf/freeride then price is a pretty big factor. It's liberating to know that you can trash your kite and not break the bank. Almost all kites on the market work just fine, especially on a foil.

Given that surf wings are right in amongst the nasty stuff then low price, robustness, repairability and replaceability are key factors.

The other side of low weight and wide inflatable parts is that it's not going to hurt you when if hits you, which it will. Try getting hit in the head with a carbon windsurf mast and see how you like it.

Gordo mate , Putting lipstick on a pig.....is that somethIng you have done before? do tell haha.
I agree 100% wing foiling after kite foiling sux, It is crap in just about every way except for riding waves and DW.
I keep thinking there must be a better way to solve the kite falling out of the sky problem but atm the wings seem to be it.Maybe that's why Jacko will only use a paddle, If I was as good as him DW I would probably only use a paddle too.

There is an option between wingfoils and "kites falling out of the sky" foiling especially in waves and downwind. The Flysurfer Peak4 kites are an inexpensive, light weight, single skin kite range which flies on virtually any 4 line bar. The 5m Peak4 for example only weighs 880gms and is approximately equivalent to an 8m LEI kite. It will fly in 3 knots of wind so it's easy to keep in the air and it has drift like no other kite which is great in waves and downwind.

The power is surprisingly grunty for the size of the kites, but one of the biggest features is you can turn it off instantly by sheeting out and surf the wave/swell/chop almost as if you have no kite. It's easy to keep airborne as it's so light, and is still responsive when sheeted out and turns very quickly. Use an inexpensive, lightweight pocket board with a good surf foil and you've got a great setup which won't cost too much and can't be beaten for manoeuvrability. The 3m Peak4 is fantastic in over 15 knots of wind with speed and control unmatched by any other kite I've flown. (Only weighs 660gm!)

The Peak4 was never designed as a surf foiling kite, it's design brief was to pull you up snowy slopes and then you could easily pack the kite down into a small backpack and ski back down. However a few people tried the Peak for foiling and were blown away by the feel and fun of this kite on a good surf foil and the word got around. I declare an interest in these kites as I sell them and use them most of the time I'm kite foiling. I've yet to have a foiler try a Peak4 and not be blown away by how good they fly and the capability they give in surfing any type of wave.

Being single skin they're very safe and no matter how hard you slam them into the ground they don't break, there's nothing to burst. They're not designed as a water relaunchable kite but with practice they can be relaunched from the water most of the time. When you really screw up they pack down small for paddling in. But you actually have to put the kite into the water as unless the wind drops below 3 knots it won't go there without being steered into the drink.

I know it's a little off topic in this thread, but for less than the cost of most wingdings, a Peak4 gives you a foiling experience somewhere between an LEI/twin skin foil kite and a surf wing. Definitely worth a fly if you're curious...

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drsurf said..

kobo said..

Gorgo said..
I fear that chasing high performance in a surf wing is a but like putting lipstick on a pig. If you shut your eyes it feels good, but it's still a pig.

If you want to go fast then get a kite foil racing kit. Even a freeride kite foiling kit will travel at double your speed and at far higher angles. Even windsurf foil racing kit is slow compared to kite foiling.

The main factors for something like wing foiling is ease of use and versatility, robustness and low price.

For kites, particularly surf/freeride then price is a pretty big factor. It's liberating to know that you can trash your kite and not break the bank. Almost all kites on the market work just fine, especially on a foil.

Given that surf wings are right in amongst the nasty stuff then low price, robustness, repairability and replaceability are key factors.

The other side of low weight and wide inflatable parts is that it's not going to hurt you when if hits you, which it will. Try getting hit in the head with a carbon windsurf mast and see how you like it.

Gordo mate , Putting lipstick on a pig.....is that somethIng you have done before? do tell haha.
I agree 100% wing foiling after kite foiling sux, It is crap in just about every way except for riding waves and DW.
I keep thinking there must be a better way to solve the kite falling out of the sky problem but atm the wings seem to be it.Maybe that's why Jacko will only use a paddle, If I was as good as him DW I would probably only use a paddle too.

There is an option between wingfoils and "kites falling out of the sky" foiling especially in waves and downwind. The Flysurfer Peak4 kites are an inexpensive, light weight, single skin kite range which flies on virtually any 4 line bar. The 5m Peak4 for example only weighs 880gms and is approximately equivalent to an 8m LEI kite. It will fly in 3 knots of wind so it's easy to keep in the air and it has drift like no other kite which is great in waves and downwind.

The power is surprisingly grunty for the size of the kites, but one of the biggest features is you can turn it off instantly by sheeting out and surf the wave/swell/chop almost as if you have no kite. It's easy to keep airborne as it's so light, and is still responsive when sheeted out and turns very quickly. Use an inexpensive, lightweight pocket board with a good surf foil and you've got a great setup which won't cost too much and can't be beaten for manoeuvrability. The 3m Peak4 is fantastic in over 15 knots of wind with speed and control unmatched by any other kite I've flown. (Only weighs 660gm!)

The Peak4 was never designed as a surf foiling kite, it's design brief was to pull you up snowy slopes and then you could easily pack the kite down into a small backpack and ski back down. However a few people tried the Peak for foiling and were blown away by the feel and fun of this kite on a good surf foil and the word got around. I declare an interest in these kites as I sell them and use them most of the time I'm kite foiling. I've yet to have a foiler try a Peak4 and not be blown away by how good they fly and the capability they give in surfing any type of wave.

Being single skin they're very safe and no matter how hard you slam them into the ground they don't break, there's nothing to burst. They're not designed as a water relaunchable kite but with practice they can be relaunched from the water most of the time. When you really screw up they pack down small for paddling in. But you actually have to put the kite into the water as unless the wind drops below 3 knots it won't go there without being steered into the drink.

I know it's a little off topic in this thread, but for less than the cost of most wingdings, a Peak4 gives you a foiling experience somewhere between an LEI/twin skin foil kite and a surf wing. Definitely worth a fly if you're curious...

Thanks drsurf,
I have read a lot of the posts about the peak4 on the Kitesurf forum and they sound like a really good option for a kite to foil with in the waves, much better that a LEI surf kite by all accounts for all the reasons you listed.
I decided to not go down that path after JB posted a video showing his wing surfer doing a DW run.
The wing was in front of him to get going and catch the swell, then as the board speed increased the wing was by his side and then finally as the board was going faster on the swell than the wind speed ,the wing was floating behind him and he was holding it by one handle and surfing.
After spending a fair bit of time DW foiling with a LEI myself, I concluded that it wouldn't matter how good a kite can drift downwind if you are foiling faster than the windspeed you are going to leave the kite behind, or it will drop out of the sky, even if you looped it.
Having said that, I imagine the peak4 is way better than a LEI and no pumping up, that you definitely have me interested in the peak4 and I would love to try it sometime if I get the chance.

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emmafoils said..

Zsadar said..

Windbot said..
This whole S25 PVC business has me wanting to swap my S25 order for a Wasp. I know it's heavier, but I'm wondering if there isn't another reason X-ply isn't used like it is in wave sails.

Save $$$ on their end and ensure you need to buy the next seasons one when yours is toast in 6 months. Just get the S25 and have the window replaced!!

Hard to understand how you can be so presumptive. First, if we accept your premise, do you think the consumer is so stupid that they would buy another wing if the first one only lasted 6 months? Second, do you think Naish is so stupid to assume their consumers are so stupid? Third, are you really trying to give serious advice based on some specialized knowledge you have or do you have some other agenda here?

Not at all!Actually this was a point in general for anyone with a PVC window in their sail. If anyone could be so kindly to grab their most used sail (that has had a bit of use). Pin it out in the window seams, & this will show if it has or hasn't stretched. I'll be the first the apologise if it hasn't, but from experience two vastly different weighted cloths and stretch parameters don't work amazingly together.

I think a bit of negativity has been lost in translation, the S25 is a great sail, don't get me wrong, as is the Naish brand. I just honestly thought it was a step in the wrong direction from a leading player. Hence coming to the community to voice my opinion and see if there was any like minded individuals.

As has been mentioned by quite a few people here, it looks like Kitesurfing brands have brought us here with their insight in kite cloth, and it's only a matter of time until we find out where it's going next. Perhaps CZGP or other code zero cloth isn't the right cloth for wings, but I'm still leaning towards this being a more 'correct' direction. Not only from a durability, safety but strength perspective.

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tarquin1 said..
As an example everyone wants a 10kg 14ft sup.

I guess there is some sort of Karma at work here (or Darwinian selection?). The market where this mentality is prevalent quickly die, as it happened with Windsurfing. And SUP racing is not doing great. Well, not actually die, but shrink to a tiny base, not enough to get cheap gear anymore with economies of scale.

I do not see the same thing with SUP surfing, or even prone surfing, where most people (well, not me... but I am in the minority here ) will prefer cheaper and stronger boards, even if this means they are 10% (or even 20%) heavier. One could argue that shortboard surfing faced this danger in the 90s with the ultra-technical toothpick boards.

One could argue that when a sport is going the way of the Dodo, some spin-off derivative will save its future by abandoning the arms race, and starting a new, simpler, cheaper sport. Kiting left Windsurfing dwindle, like Paragliding did for Deltaplaning, Inflatable SUPs for racing SUPs, etc... Wingfoiling may be doing the same thing to Kiting now, we will see.

I have been Kite Foiling for a few years and now I have picked up Wing Foiling, for me Wing foiling is great fun in 20 to 35 knots and keeps me riding a hydrofol foil from 8 knots on my 12 mtr Soul, 15 to 20 on my 6 mtr Soul. Then I switch to the Wing Foil set up above 20 knots, The wind swell picks up and gusts do not bother you and you can free ride wind swell in bay conditions. With this combination I can foil most weekends, just need to pack all the gear in the car as forecasts are often wrong. I only foil now and wing foiling is great fun in high winds. But is very frustrating in light winds, when all of my kite foiling friends are zipping around me. After many sessions of going nowhere fast, I will now wait for 20 plus knot days before I Wing Foil. I find an Armstrong 85cm Mast with a 1200 wing for kiting and a 1550 wing for wing foiling is a great set up for my 100 plus kg weigh in. I believe wing foiling is here to stay and is a great high wind option for kite foilers to consider going through the learning curve.

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MidTide said..
I have been Kite Foiling for a few years and now I have picked up Wing Foiling, for me Wing foiling is great fun in 20 to 35 knots and keeps me riding a hydrofol foil from 8 knots on my 12 mtr Soul, 15 to 20 on my 6 mtr Soul. Then I switch to the Wing Foil set up above 20 knots, The wind swell picks up and gusts do not bother you and you can free ride wind swell in bay conditions. With this combination I can foil most weekends, just need to pack all the gear in the car as forecasts are often wrong. I only foil now and wing foiling is great fun in high winds. But is very frustrating in light winds, when all of my kite foiling friends are zipping around me. After many sessions of going nowhere fast, I will now wait for 20 plus knot days before I Wing Foil. I find an Armstrong 85cm Mast with a 1200 wing for kiting and a 1550 wing for wing foiling is a great set up for my 100 plus kg weigh in. I believe wing foiling is here to stay and is a great high wind option for kite foilers to consider going through the learning curve.

2400 will have you out on the light day's. Super fun wing.

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Zsadar said..

tarquin1 said..
I was having a conversation with someone a while ago that ran a surf shop for years. He said it's hard for the companies and harder for the guys running the shops. He gave up. Very different market here.
As an example everyone wants a 10kg 14ft sup. The companies make them. Then everyone complains they are fragile and the company is crap. There is a fiberglass version that is less than 1kg heavier and 1000 bucks cheaper that is much tougher but no one buys them. Everyone wants a carbon race board.The guy that runs the shop is stuck in the middle with a dinged carbon board he had to refund. And a load of glass boards no one will buy.
Lots of people asked for a window. Everyone wants the lightest possible wing. Yes they could be lighter. Yes the bladder could be smaller but they would be even more expensive and explode the first time someone over pumped it or crashed it. Or the window would delam when people dont wash there kit and scrunch it up and shove it in the bag.
There is always a compromise.
Don't get me wrong I have no sympathy for the big companies.
A good friend that was a boat builder would say people always want light,strong and cheap. He would say choose 2 of those you cant have all 3!

You couldn't have put it better and I couldn't agree more. Fibreglass Epic ski's are nearly $1000 cheaper, and for
You could probably argue the Slingwing V1 will outlast everything. Super heavy and rigid leach. Is it what people want? nope, that's why V2 is moving to lighter weight.

Out of interest & from what I've gathered the WASP bladder is the biggest and allows you to point highest?

I borrowed a friend's 6M Wasp and really loved the power and the handles. Only neg's were it didn't point as high due to the large diameter leading edge. You could feel it hit the wall when I pointed to high.

The Naish pointed really high, but I'm going to call it nearly a tie w the Fone. Fone seems to have just a tad more power, somewhere between the Naish and Wasp. Naish handles great also, Fone needs more cushion, after long sessions you feel it.

So what we are seeing is compromises here and there, you can't have it all....as stated above. Hopefully this year most will be able to demo several at wind centers and maybe some mags will step forward w some real, non-biased reviews?

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Zsadar said..

tarquin1 said..
I was having a conversation with someone a while ago that ran a surf shop for years. He said it's hard for the companies and harder for the guys running the shops. He gave up. Very different market here.
As an example everyone wants a 10kg 14ft sup. The companies make them. Then everyone complains they are fragile and the company is crap. There is a fiberglass version that is less than 1kg heavier and 1000 bucks cheaper that is much tougher but no one buys them. Everyone wants a carbon race board.The guy that runs the shop is stuck in the middle with a dinged carbon board he had to refund. And a load of glass boards no one will buy.
Lots of people asked for a window. Everyone wants the lightest possible wing. Yes they could be lighter. Yes the bladder could be smaller but they would be even more expensive and explode the first time someone over pumped it or crashed it. Or the window would delam when people dont wash there kit and scrunch it up and shove it in the bag.
There is always a compromise.
Don't get me wrong I have no sympathy for the big companies.
A good friend that was a boat builder would say people always want light,strong and cheap. He would say choose 2 of those you cant have all 3!

You couldn't have put it better and I couldn't agree more. Fibreglass Epic ski's are nearly $1000 cheaper, and for
You could probably argue the Slingwing V1 will outlast everything. Super heavy and rigid leach. Is it what people want? nope, that's why V2 is moving to lighter weight.

Out of interest & from what I've gathered the WASP bladder is the biggest and allows you to point highest?

I borrowed a friend's 6M Wasp and really loved the power and the handles. Only neg's were it didn't point as high due to the large diameter leading edge. You could feel it hit the wall when I pointed to high.

The Naish pointed really high, but I'm going to call it nearly a tie w the Fone. Fone seems to have just a tad more power, somewhere between the Naish and Wasp. Naish handles great also, Fone needs more cushion, after long sessions you feel it.

So what we are seeing is compromises here and there, you can't have it all....as stated above. Hopefully this year most will be able to demo several at wind centers and maybe some mags will step forward w some real, non-biased reviews?

Select to expand quote

MidTide said..
I have been Kite Foiling for a few years and now I have picked up Wing Foiling, for me Wing foiling is great fun in 20 to 35 knots and keeps me riding a hydrofol foil from 8 knots on my 12 mtr Soul, 15 to 20 on my 6 mtr Soul. Then I switch to the Wing Foil set up above 20 knots, The wind swell picks up and gusts do not bother you and you can free ride wind swell in bay conditions. With this combination I can foil most weekends, just need to pack all the gear in the car as forecasts are often wrong. I only foil now and wing foiling is great fun in high winds. But is very frustrating in light winds, when all of my kite foiling friends are zipping around me. After many sessions of going nowhere fast, I will now wait for 20 plus knot days before I Wing Foil. I find an Armstrong 85cm Mast with a 1200 wing for kiting and a 1550 wing for wing foiling is a great set up for my 100 plus kg weigh in. I believe wing foiling is here to stay and is a great high wind option for kite foilers to consider going through the learning curve.

What size wingfoil are you using for these 20kt+ days? Thanks in advance.

I use a 5 mtr wasp

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MidTide said..
I use a 5 mtr wasp

I would have thought you could get out in lighter winds. At 105 kg I use a 5m wasp and get out from about 12 knots. I did struggle on the 4m needed 20 +. Over here the wingdingers are matching it with kites (not foils but close) in light wind. Looking forward to a new 6m soon

I've have a 5m Wasp and recently tried the Duotone V1 4m and Naish 5.3 V2, all had different strengths and I would be happy with any of them to be honest. Construction issues aside I did like having Windows. Naish took a bit more effort to pump on to foil but felt great once up, Duotone boom was great for hand positioning options and pumped great but stability in neutral no as good as the other two. Wasp pumps great and has heaps of grunt but does catch the tip as easier than the Naish. I'm only 70kg so the Naish might feel softer if you're heavier. Now we just need someone to make a wing with all the best bits from all the brands!