I know that with the bigger Kalama E3 the boxxes are too far to the back for Axis.Besides that, ...its not a very stable board for its volume/sizes and there are better alternatives nowadays.

I get completely that you want a smaller board, but unless you are fixxed to certain sizes because of transport I think you want a smaller board feel


Keep in mind that some boards that are in total length longer feel smaller due the position of the mast tracks, when you stand on them.For example, my AKPhazer 5.6x27x90l felt bigger as the SAB Torpedo of 6.3x20x100l because the Torpedo had the boxxes a LOT further forward. This made me stance more central so I had actually LESS board in front of me while flying. With you old Naish yo are pretty much standing on the back so every mid length, including 7ft boards will still feel a lot smaller to you.

reading that you live in france: have you considered the AFS Whitbird? I tried the 115l board and it was a fun one (and yes I know its slightly longer as your list).I,m 188x98kg and for me it was too big but it felt quick up to the foil, maneuverable and with a good volume distribution.

I'm glad someone was able to name the box issue for sure.
Jeroensurf is right too. You want a better feeling board. TBH you would probably love an 8'x20" downwind board. I bet you'd be shocked by it's performance over your current board.

For example:

My 5'10"x28.75" 123l Kalama e3 was a great board to learn on but an absolute dumptruck to ride vs my 8'x21" 111l Barracuda. I LOVED that Barracuda and made gigantic leaps forward as a foiler on it.

Thanks guys, every opinion is always interesting and constructive !!!

Jeroensurf, yes of course I looked at AFS and I contacted them, given my research, they would advise me 3 boards:

- Fly One of 6'2 x 27'1/2 and 115 liters
- Whitebird of 6'8 x 23' and 115 liters
- Blackbird of 6'4 x 23'5 and 110 liters

The Fly One really seems to me to be a "school" board and I'm afraid that it won't be different enough in the end from my Naish 6'6 even if it is 4 inches less in length, 5.5 inches less in width and 25 liters less ....
The White and BlackBird would perhaps be more "technical" at the beginning but according to the AFS guys, big guys love these boards.

So actually I'm going to put the Blackbird 6'4 x 23'5 of 110 liters on my shortlist ....

After my hesitation on the type of shape (Mid Length or "small big") it is mainly to try to make the best choice for my "progression", that it is done quietly without struggling when changing boards .... I am tall (1m89) and heavy (+/-110kg) and the small width scares me a little in terms of stability on the lifting phase knowing that as soon as the wind starts to blow hard it forms a very very sensitive short swell which can be unpleasant ....

Today I continue to think about the advantages and disadvantages of each type of board and make a "short list" which evolves every day:

- Armstrong FG 5'11 x 26'1/4 and 120 liters (apparently very solid, and perhaps one of the most "modern" of "small big")

- AFS BlackBird 6'4 x 23'5 and 110 liters

- Kalama E3 6'5 x 23'5 and 116 liters (to see the story of box for the Axis foils but the opinions differ quite a bit .... )

- JP X-Winger Pro 6'1 x 28' and 122 liters

- Smik Custom, the advantage is that I see directly with the Boss and he makes me custom .....

Have you considered the Cabrinha Swift? I have the 5'8 x 19" and 85L and love it. Admittedly in choppy stuff it is definitely harder to balance on the water than my short and wide Kalama e3 but gets going much faster.

It also come in:
6'3 x 20" and 100L
6'9 x 21" and 125L

Might be too skinny for what you are after but just giving you all the options in case you have not considered these. Good luck.

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Fatben said..
I started wingfoiling at the beginning of the year on a Naish Hover Ultra 6'6 x 33' of 140 liters for my 105kg

Hi Ben, I'm in a similar position, started 6 months ago @ 95kg on a 105L board. I'm riding and gybing well, no tacks yet.I've been going through the same decision for second board.. have tried a few boards from 75 L to 95L and ended up getting an 85L board last weekend which I love and is so much more maneuverable.. my riding has improved significantly in 3 sessions in a week on the smaller board.. maybe demo a 95L board based on your weight?

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kitebored said..

Fatben said..
I started wingfoiling at the beginning of the year on a Naish Hover Ultra 6'6 x 33' of 140 liters for my 105kg

Hi Ben, I'm in a similar position, started 6 months ago @ 95kg on a 105L board. I'm riding and gybing well, no tacks yet.I've been going through the same decision for second board.. have tried a few boards from 75 L to 95L and ended up getting an 85L board last weekend which I love and is so much more maneuverable.. my riding has improved significantly in 3 sessions in a week on the smaller board.. maybe demo a 95L board based on your weight?

What are the board models (old and new) ??
My Weight = +/- 110kg pour 1m89.

You're gonna get paralysis by analysis bro. There is no perfect board, bite the bullet & choose the one you like the paint job of. At the end of the day you spend a lot of time looking at it so grab a pretty one.

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Microsurfer said..
You're gonna get paralysis by analysis bro. There is no perfect board, bite the bullet & choose the one you like the paint job of. At the end of the day you spend a lot of time looking at it so grab a pretty one.

Yes, I am aware that the "perfect" board that will be perfect for all conditions and all practices does not exist and will certainly never exist ....

Now given the price of these "toys", I think it is normal to ask questions and take the time to think to try to find the board that will best match my search.

My biggest uncertainty until now was the "type" of shape, either a trendy shape of the moment (for how long .... marketing ...) Mid Length or a more traditional shape "small big".

Knowing that I have only been riding for 7 months on a 6'6 x 33' and 140 litre aircraft carrier, that this will be my only board, that I mainly ride on lakes which are very bumpy when the wind blows hard, that on this lake the wind can be unstable and that I have the build of a lumberjack (1m89 and +/-110kg) and that above all my goal is to have maximum fun without struggling, I think that going for a more traditional shape will be the best solution....

A traditional "small/large" but modern shape, that is to say without falling into excessive widths as this kind of board can be around 120 litres (often 29'1/2 to 30'), with long rail boxes to adapt to a maximum of foil brands, the strap positions that go with these rail boxes and shapes, rocker and more slippery rails often inspired by Mid Length .

This is why my short list today is limited, for now, to :

- JP X-Winger 6'1 x 28' of 122 liters
- Armstrong 5'11 x 26'1/4 of 120 liters
- Smik Custom ( odds/volume to be defined with the Boss )

Its your list/money/board and i,m not aviliated to anthing or anybody, but based on what you write about your needs I would go longer and less wide.Boards like the Whitebird arent,t extreme with there 23width.I would stay away of the 19 wide board as a 2th board. I really liked the Swift and Torpedo, but its too difficult as an progression board. Tose are imo more an advanced rider extra Lightwind board. At the same time, with the knowledge of now I wouldnt go back to 26+ eitherThe wider JP/Armstrong are gonna be less quick to get on the foil and have less control in really windy days.I borrowed my KT SuperK92l (6.5x22x92l) weekend to my pal to try and grabbed my older AL Phazer V2 5.6x27x90l that sess and we switched a bit forth and back on the water. We both agreed that the SuperK felt way more stable because of the length AND was easier to fly because more length helps to balance a bit more and seem to catch less wind under the board as the wider ones.

How many years of experience do you have in Wingfoil Jeroensurf ?

And in order, which boards have you used (model, dimensions, volume) since your beginnings ?

50y old. 188x 98kg, due some medical bad luck most of my left foot (and, im goofy) isnt working so I only have a working big toe to balance things out, the rest of the foot is still there, but tendons and muscles are taken away so don,t add much stability. Because of that I also ride strapless and with shoes to keep a bit more grip that i don,t have when riding barefoot.longtime wavesailor and, supper from the Netherlands, doing okay, having heaps of fun but not super tallented.Started 4y ago with wingfoil on a Fanatic 5.8 x110l .Progressed after a year to an AK Phazer 5.8x27x90l.From there I bought an 4.9x 21x 60l Appletree Slice V2. that board didnt work for me. (the guy who owns it now loves it!)The less length made it for me unstable when sitting on my knees amd starting (too stiff for the rodeo sit start and in really chaotic water a stinkbug start can be very difficult as well).
I tried an KT 5.4x22l board on the local lake and that was awesome thinking it was 75l or something like that.....Later finding out it was 56l!
For me that was the moment that I realized that with wingfoiling as with prone surfing, sup and windsurfing length adds more stability as width.
I bought that KT wingdrifter 5.4x22x56l for strong wind and kept the AK90l for lightwind (upgraded to the newer 5.6).
DW sufoil came along, for me as a long time supper this was the combo i was looking for. a grweat blend of my 2 favourite sports.

Summer 2023 I bought an Sunova Casey Elite 7.6x23x137l to make it not too difficult for myself. Wingfoiled on it and that was sooo easy. I could litteraly get a meter smaller wing or a smaller foil for the same windspeeds to get going and still do tacks etc. Supfoiling in the waves was heaps of fun, but haven,t downdwind much because I broke last autumn my ankle and balancing on a DW is espcislly hard for that.
The Wingdrifter 5.4x22x56l and the Sunova 7.6x23x137l made me really think about what attributes in a shape I really like and make life easier and made me realize that a bit more length and less width works really well for me, just in tome with the new intruduced midlength boards...
Tried a LOT of difference Midlength and got myself the KT SuperK 6.5x22x 92l wich feels bigger, more stable, quicker up the foil and better handling as my AK5.6x27x90l...so that is why I advice everybody except freestylers and very light young guys to look into midlength. ;)

I will contact Antoine from Smik Europe to see with them to make a Custom, with Scotty they have always been great advice for my SUP boards and I have never been disappointed with the result (quality, finish, solidity).

When I see the Custom from Hilly (www.seabreeze.com.au/forums/Wing-Foiling/Wind-Wings/Smik-Stokr-Breeze-Wingfoil-Board?page=1) maybe adapting it to my size with dimensions around 6'6 x 23'1/2 and +/-125 liters to keep comfort, and by adding strap inserts it could be nice ....

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Fatben said..
I will contact Antoine from Smik Europe to see with them to make a Custom, with Scotty they have always been great advice for my SUP boards and I have never been disappointed with the result (quality, finish, solidity).

When I see the Custom from Hilly (www.seabreeze.com.au/forums/Wing-Foiling/Wind-Wings/Smik-Stokr-Breeze-Wingfoil-Board?page=1) maybe adapting it to my size with dimensions around 6'6 x 23'1/2 and +/-125 liters to keep comfort, and by adding strap inserts it could be nice ....

Good option

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Fatben said..
I will contact Antoine from Smik Europe to see with them to make a Custom, with Scotty they have always been great advice for my SUP boards and I have never been disappointed with the result (quality, finish, solidity).

When I see the Custom from Hilly (www.seabreeze.com.au/forums/Wing-Foiling/Wind-Wings/Smik-Stokr-Breeze-Wingfoil-Board?page=1) maybe adapting it to my size with dimensions around 6'6 x 23'1/2 and +/-125 liters to keep comfort, and by adding strap inserts it could be nice ....

In my experience packing that much volume into that length will make the board harder to use. Make it longer.

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Grantmac said..

Fatben said..
I will contact Antoine from Smik Europe to see with them to make a Custom, with Scotty they have always been great advice for my SUP boards and I have never been disappointed with the result (quality, finish, solidity).

When I see the Custom from Hilly (www.seabreeze.com.au/forums/Wing-Foiling/Wind-Wings/Smik-Stokr-Breeze-Wingfoil-Board?page=1) maybe adapting it to my size with dimensions around 6'6 x 23'1/2 and +/-125 liters to keep comfort, and by adding strap inserts it could be nice ....

In my experience packing that much volume into that length will make the board harder to use. Make it longer.

+1. The board would need to be very thick, which is always a disadvantage.

AFS Whitebird = 6'6 x 21' and 100 liters
AFS BlackBird = 6'4 x 23'1/2 and 110 liters
Kalama E3 = 6'5 x 23'1/2 and 116 liters
Duotone Skybrid = 6' x 23'1/2 and 115 liters
F-One Mid Lenght = 6'2 x 22' and 120 liters
Gong Cruzader Diamond = 6'4 x 22'5/8 and 122 liters ( 5'6/8 thickness )

My idea was to make a board of 6'4 to 6'6 by 23'1/2 to 24'1/2 and 125 liters (my weight + 15).

When I look at all the boards mentioned above and their dimensions / volume, according to the distribution of the volume (outline and dimensions at 1' from the nose and tail) the volume dimensions on which I had started did not seem crazy to me .

In your opinion, what is the best thickness range for this type of board or the thickness that should not be exceeded???

I think it is very hard to isolate it to hard numbers.
You have to see thickness in correlation to the rest of the shape... to give 2 examples: The Sab Torpedo 100l of 6.2x 19.9wide and 6,06 thick flat bottom and smallish tail ith a thick V was very eager to roll over. That was partly width, but also thickness. Make a board like that 4 thick and it is more stable.

My Sunova 7.6x23x137l x6.1/4thick with a wider tail and double concave is pretty stable.
Partly due the extra width, but also du the concaves and wider outline adding a lot of stability.

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Grantmac said..

Fatben said..
I will contact Antoine from Smik Europe to see with them to make a Custom, with Scotty they have always been great advice for my SUP boards and I have never been disappointed with the result (quality, finish, solidity).

When I see the Custom from Hilly (www.seabreeze.com.au/forums/Wing-Foiling/Wind-Wings/Smik-Stokr-Breeze-Wingfoil-Board?page=1) maybe adapting it to my size with dimensions around 6'6 x 23'1/2 and +/-125 liters to keep comfort, and by adding strap inserts it could be nice ....

In my experience packing that much volume into that length will make the board harder to use. Make it longer.

My 5 10 x 21 x 85l is 5 inches thick which is great. Easy to get a 6 6 version under 6 inches.

I kind of need to know what Ben selected.

For the moment I have not selected / ordered anything.
I am waiting for the return from Smik Europe for a Custom type Mid Lenght of 6'4 / 6'6 x 23'1/2 / 24'1/2 and 125 liters.
I continue my reflection anyway, and the different possibilities, today I have 3 "options":

- Shape "modern" more slender type JP-X-Winger 2024 or the new Smik Wingboard ( www.smiksup.com/foil-boards ) both in similar dimensions of approximately 6'1 x 28' and 120/122 liters.

- Shape Mid Lenght with this possibility of Custom Smik.

- Start with 2 boards (second-hand or big promotion), one for Light Wind (I found a Sunova Aviator Casey Downwind Elite in 7' x 23' and 120 liters) and one with a more "small big" shape for "stronger" winds which could, I think, be found quite easily in big promotion with dimensions around 5'10/6'2 x 28'/29' and +/- 120 liters.

Hi all,

Looking for some advice on midlengths (which is more or less what this thread is about).

My previous board, a JP Freefoil 130l broke due to a defect, so I need to get a new board. I'm curious about midlengths but not sure if it's too soon for me.

Bit of background on me & my level: I'm 90 kilos, have a windsurfing background, wind foiled 5-ish times before swapping to winging which I've done probably 6-7 times. I've had no real issues flying around on my old big board and an Axis HPS 980 foil (previously using a spitfire 1100 which I actually found to be much harder to use than the HPS 980, probably to no surprise to anyone as everyone says the spitfires are a more intermediate foil). I'm foiling into & occasionally most way around gybes but never actually foiled out of a gybe, partially because I can't ride toe-side yet which is something I still need to learn. Unfortunately I've only had one foiling session on my HPS 980 before my board broke, and that was going really well for a time but the wind kept building and I ended up miles overpowered, so not much progress was made.

I'm comparing the following two boards:Duotone sky free 115L: 5'7"/170cm long, 28"/71cm wide.
Duotone skybrid 100L: 5'10"/177cm long, 22.75"/57.8cm wide.

For reference the dimensions of the old board were: 130L, 6'9"/207cm long, 30.3"/77cm wide.
Everyone says positive things about midlengths & that they're not as unstable on the roll axis as they may appear on paper, but my worry is that it's going to be too challenging for me at my level. I'm still expecting to be needing to water start quite often until I get the hang of these gybes, either because I fall in mid gybe, or I stall at the end of the gybe and probably fall off (particularly if the board was narrow - on the freefoil I was often able to stall and stay standing on the board).

Thoughts?

I have a 2024 7ft 1in x 22.5 DW board that has big chines, is very flat, it's about 5.7kg 105 l, me 74kg.
While this board does what it should however, on hard touch downs when trying to go fast it's like hitting a brick wall.
My other board is a 2021 JP 6ft 8in x 26in x 96l , big chines, big tail step and big chines and close to 7kg.
On the JP I can almost start foiling as early as the DW board however, it requires a different pumping technique which is easy due to the rocker. Additionally touch downs hardly affect the board which I put down to its rocker.
I think this JP board was ahead of its time.??

Wow, hot topic. Looks still like rapid evolution and opinion change for all involved. I will pipe in just because I am 110kg. I started on a Fanatic sky wing 125 liter. I sail mostly flat water and lighter winds, but also big choppy bay conditions. Your 125 liter mark will ensure good comfortable float. I went custom about this time last year. 6'10"/21.5/125liter Amos Sultan. Yes, as was pointed out, there is a 1-2 session adjustment to the the tippy nature when you climb on the board, but after that, it is not noticeable. The earlier take off will astound you and you will realize that you pump better and make less contact with the water carving despite the significant increase in board length due the design and track placement. I am now on the 6'10"/21.0/115liter version. I unfortunately had to replace the first board under warranty. I chose to eliminate footstrap inserts and reduce the volume slightly on my replacement board.

Good luck!

@Dieseagiell, I think its a bit too early.When you can jibe more stable they are awesome, but the smaller width making starting over and over again less ideal.In your case I would buy a bnged up cheap 2th hand to learn the basics on in a few months and the swap to a midlength alike board.

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Jeroensurf said..
@Dieseagiell, I think its a bit too early.When you can jibe more stable they are awesome, but the smaller width making starting over and over again less ideal.In your case I would buy a bnged up cheap 2th hand to learn the basics on in a few months and the swap to a midlength alike board.

Thanks for the advice, I've come to the same conclusion and I'm currently trying to toss up between the sky free 115L and the cabrinha code v2 114L. Because I got a store credit due to the warranty process I need to get a new board to use up my credit.

Hi guys,

Well here it is, after a lot of thinking, gathering information and feedback from riders I made up my mind and ordered my next (second) board!!!

And so it will be a Custom from Smik, being already a super happy customer with the quality of their SUPs (2 Custom Hipster Twin and Style Lord) and always well advised by Antoine from Smik Europe and by the Boss Scotty, I decided to trust them again for this board.

It will therefore be a "mid length" type shape very similar to Hilly's board but adapted to my weight/height, level and my conditions.
So we started with a 6'6 x 24'1/2 board in order to reach 126 liters (1m89 and +/-110kg) and not to make it too thick, which according to the Boss "is not pleasant either because less responsive to support and less stable when stopped".
I went for a Biax Carbon / PVC construction in order to have a very solid board and to stay in a correct weight.
A handle on the bottom of the board, long rail boxes and foot strap inserts.

Now all that's left to do is wait

I wanted to resurrect this thread with my own second board story: 68kg, 5'8 surfing background only.

Learned to Wing/occasionally proning with a 6'6 x 26 x 120l aztron with tracks way back. It got on foil but was a pig in the water and the air. Bought a tiny prone board to learn prone, it was difficult unless conditions were perfect.

Ordered one of the 6'3 Armstrong dw boards on closeout for about 1400 aud.

The store made an error and sent me the 6'8 army (18 3/4 wide and 96l). Shout out to underground surf in Auckland, they were great about it and said I could try the board, if not happy I could get a refund or swap boards.

Turns out it has been fantastic, it's way lighter and therefore easier to transport and carry to the water, it turns better and takes off waay better in the water. I've tried it in light wind as well as super gusty and in my opinion it's fine in chop.
Even better, I tried proning it in crumbly 1ft surf and it was awesome, the shape slices through broken surf, the width makes it a dream to paddle, it gets up easily (like a longboard) and it has great pitch stability. It still turns like a battleship but that's the foil (hps980 and 400p).

All in all, it has been a massive upgrade, despite being 2 inches longer than my learner board (and way too much volume for me according to the Internet).

Anyway, my 2c if anyone interested. Massive thanks to bwalnut, I'll probably never make it to hood river but if I do I'll buy you a beer, you probably saved me 2 grand.

Furthermore, I have a lightweight friend who used to kitesurf, I might convince her to try learn on the dw board. I have a feeling that if someone learned the stink bug from scratch, they wouldn't even need the big fat board to start with.

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kookfoil4 said..
I wanted to resurrect this thread with my own second board story: 68kg, 5'8 surfing background only.

Learned to Wing/occasionally proning with a 6'6 x 26 x 120l aztron with tracks way back. It got on foil but was a pig in the water and the air. Bought a tiny prone board to learn prone, it was difficult unless conditions were perfect.

Ordered one of the 6'3 Armstrong dw boards on closeout for about 1400 aud.

The store made an error and sent me the 6'8 army (18 3/4 wide and 96l). Shout out to underground surf in Auckland, they were great about it and said I could try the board, if not happy I could get a refund or swap boards.

Turns out it has been fantastic, it's way lighter and therefore easier to transport and carry to the water, it turns better and takes off waay better in the water. I've tried it in light wind as well as super gusty and in my opinion it's fine in chop.
Even better, I tried proning it in crumbly 1ft surf and it was awesome, the shape slices through broken surf, the width makes it a dream to paddle, it gets up easily (like a longboard) and it has great pitch stability. It still turns like a battleship but that's the foil (hps980 and 400p).

All in all, it has been a massive upgrade, despite being 2 inches longer than my learner board (and way too much volume for me according to the Internet).

Anyway, my 2c if anyone interested. Massive thanks to bwalnut, I'll probably never make it to hood river but if I do I'll buy you a beer, you probably saved me 2 grand.

Furthermore, I have a lightweight friend who used to kitesurf, I might convince her to try learn on the dw board. I have a feeling that if someone learned the stink bug from scratch, they wouldn't even need the big fat board to start with.

Awesome update! Stoked the board worked out so well for you. Such an eye opening learning experience right? Keep us posted on how your friend goes if she learns on the dw board. I've long suspected that the right mentor and right learner would blast through the beginner stage with a dw board.

and... Come to Hood River!